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Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research

Paul Sullivan

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With Fred Hansen's B06021, the current list of first run Ball Waltham ORRS comes to 26.

1B060706Pendant Set
2B060708Setting unknown
3B060713Pendant Set
4B060729Pendant Set
5B060759LS
6B060768Pendant Set
7B060771Setting unknown
8B060773Pendant Set
9B060778Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
10B060783Pendant Set
11B060809Lever Set
12B060812Pendant Set
13B060836Pendant Set
14B060841Pendant Set
15B060842Pendant Set
17B060863Lever Set
16B060869Setting unknown
18B060915Lever Set
19B060972Pendant Set
20B061018Setting unknown
21
B061121Lever Set
22B061060Pendant Set
23B061063Setting unknown
24B061078Pendant Set
25B061095Pendant Set
26B061099Setting unknown

Please let me know of any errors in this list.

Regards,

Paul
 

johnbscott

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Paul

Thank you for continuing to update the tabulation of First Run 16s ORRS serial numbers. There are errors, however, as the newly observed number is actually B061021 and the movement is actually Pendant Set. Additionally, the item reference numbers 16 and 17 need to be transposed. I am sure that you will kindly make the necessary corrections.

It is gratifying to see such a cooperative research effort on the part of our members.

Out of the original run of 400 movements, we now have 26 reported (6.5%). Of those we have found just four that are definitely lever set and they are not in a serial number sub-group. Significantly, none of the 26 reported movements have 23 jewels, contrary to the record to be found in the Waltham Gray Book of serial numbers.

JBS
 

Paul Sullivan

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John,

Thanks for pointing out the errors. I seem to do allot of transposing errors, even when I was young! :p
Here's the updated list:

1B060706Pendant Set
2B060708Setting unknown
3B060713Pendant Set
4B060729Pendant Set
5B060759LS
6B060768Pendant Set
7B060771Setting unknown
8B060773Pendant Set
9B060778Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
10B060783Pendant Set
11B060809Lever Set
12B060812Pendant Set
13B060836Pendant Set
14B060841Pendant Set
15B060842Pendant Set
16B060863Lever Set
17B060869Setting unknown
18B060915Lever Set
19B060972Pendant Set
20B061018Setting unknown
21B061021Pendant Set
22B061060Pendant Set
23B061063Setting unknown
24B061078Pendant Set
25B061095Pendant Set
26B061099Setting unknown

If I have made any errors let me know. I have the list stored in excel so corrections can be made easily.
Thanks also for the additional information on lever sets as compared to P/S. I hadn't paid attention to that, let alone some may have had
23 jewels! Now that would be a find.

Regards,

Paul
 

johnbscott

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It can be confirmed that Ball-Waltham movement B060708, the second listed above, is pendant set.

JBS
 

Paul Sullivan

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Here is an up-date of the Ball-Waltham ORRS list to reflect John's information on the B060708 as being pendent set.
I have also inserted 3 serial numbers:B060710, B061026, and B061093 (shown in bold italics) on which reports have been submitted on the "Pocket Watch Database", but with no photograph included. If the three observations are correct the total is up to 29 watches from the first run or a bit over 2.6%.


1B060706Pendant Set
2B060708Pendant Set
3B060710
Lever Set
4B060713Pendant Set
5B060729Pendant Set
6B060759Lever Set
7B060768Pendant Set
8B060771Setting unknown
9B060773Pendant Set
10B060778Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
11B060783Pendant Set
12B060809Lever Set
13B060812Pendant Set
14B060836Pendant Set
15B060841Pendant Set
16B060842Pendant Set
17B060863Lever Set
18B060869Setting unknown
19B060915Lever Set
20B060972Pendant Set
21B061018Setting unknown
22B061026
Pendant Set
23B061060Pendant Set
24B061063Setting unknown
25B061078Pendant Set
26B061078Pendant Set
27B061093
Pendant Set
28B061095Pendant Set
29B061099Setting unknown




Paul
 

johnbscott

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Movement No. B061075 (reportedly Pendant Set) recently sold on eBay, so that can be added to the list.

Paul, I note that your updated list shows B061078 (Pendant Set) twice.

I have seen excellent photographs of B061021 (Pendant Set) and it was previously listed, so that can be added back into the list.

Our tally now would be 30 movements out of 400 (7.5%).

JBS
 

Paul Sullivan

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Hi John,

Thanks for the information on B061075 (PS) and catching the double entry of B061078. I must have replaced or lost B061021 when inserting the last up date.:chuckling: Hopefully I've got it right and as you note, we have 30 first run Ball Waltham ORRS watches.


1B060706Pendant Set
2B060708Setting unknown
3B060710Lever set
4B060713Pendant Set
5B060729Pendant Set
6B060759LS
7B060768Pendant Set
8B060771Setting unknown
9B060773Pendant Set
10B060778Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
11B060783Pendant Set
12B060809
Lever Set
13B060812Pendant Set
14B060836Pendant Set
15B060841Pendant Set
16B060842Pendant Set
17B060863Lever Set
18B060869Setting unknown
19B060915Lever Set
20B060972Pendant Set
21B061018Setting unknown
22B061021Pendant Set
23B061026Pendant Set
24B061060Pendant Set
25B061063Setting unknown
26B061075*Pendant Set
27B061078
Pendant Set
28B061093
Pendant Set
29B061095Pendant Set
30B061099Setting unknown
* indicates latest addition


For reference five of serial numbers came from the PW DATABASE and but did not have an accompanying picture and are listed in bold. The rest, I believe, have been confirmed by members in this thread.

Paul

 

johnbscott

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Today I was reading through the Ball catalogue for 1901. I believe it would have been the first Ball catalogue to offer the Ball 16s Official Standard railroad watch, described as the New Thin Model, Three-quarter Plate Small Size Watch. (The catalog also offers 18s Ball Official Standard watches.)

I noticed that the 16s example that is illustrated on page 4 was actually an ORC brotherhood (coloured logo) watch. Its movement is illustrated on page 6. Close inspection shows that the Gold Seal (insert) of the movement is ORC (not RR) and the serial number is B061001 (first run).

From these observations, my conclusions are:
- Brotherhood watches can be expected in the first run of Ball Waltham Official Standard watches;
- the colour logo dials are likely to have preceded the black and white logo brotherhood 16s Ball dials.

Additionally, it might be noted that the 16s ORC watch that was found in the Ball personal collection (serial number 596300, thought to be a prototype) has the same dial.

303746.jpg 303747.jpg
 

Attachments

johnbscott

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Within the past month I have noticed two watches incorporating Ball-Waltham first run movements being offered for sale on eBay. These were:

B060890 17J PS

B060909 23J LS

Yes, proof of the existence of at least one 23J movement in the first run has surfaced, at last.
 

Kent

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This (the 23-jewel watch S/N B060909) was reported as being seen on eBay on May 20, 2017. However, I don't recall seeing a picture at that time.
 

Nathan Moore

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This (the 23-jewel watch S/N B060909) was reported as being seen on eBay on May 20, 2017. However, I don't recall seeing a picture at that time.
Item #401356717326
Ended July 9, 2017

Photos are still online.
 

Tom McIntyre

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Tom McIntyre

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FWIW, there is also no sale noted on the second auction. It is just ended. The one I posted is 060909 and the other is 060907, so I do not think this was a flip. :)

There is no record available of the May auction of 060909.
 
Last edited:

Nathan Moore

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I see now that the second one ended without a sale.

It is the same watch as the previous auction though. Both are serial #B060909.

Was there an additional auction back in May or was that the one that ended June 6?
 

Tom McIntyre

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Fred, you cheated and looked at the watch. I was going by the detailed listing.
Code:
Year of Manufacture:	1900-1909	Number of Jewels:	23 Jewels
Closure:	Open Face	Pocket Watch Size:	16
Features:	Mint Ball Railroad, 12-Hour Dial, 24-Hour Dial, Arabic Numerals	MPN:	
Does Not Apply
Movement:	Mechanical (Hand-winding)	Material:	Yellow Gold Filled
Country/Region of Manufacture:	United States	Serial Number:	B0690907
Escapement Type:	Lever	Model:	
Ball Waltham 23 Jewel
Brand:	
BALL Waltham
 

johnbscott

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In the second auction, under Item Specifics, the movement number was mis-stated as being B060907 but it was correctly identified as B060909 in the text, below that. The accompanying photographs confirm this. It was the same movement, both times.

In its initially offered form, the assemblage would have been a fairly plain workaday railroad watch (retrofitted, for utilitarian purposes, with replacement dial, hands and case). Its saving grace, for its long survival, would have been its status as a lever set movement assisted, no doubt, by its high jeweling.

In its current form, the movement is presented as a rare collectible, fitted out with more appealing dial, hands and case.

The configuration of the watch is not of the original style, in either instance.

Out of all this comes the finding that the configuration of the first run of Ball-Waltham was varied. The varieties included pendant setting, lever setting, Brotherhood marked, jewelled to 17J and 23J. Case variations are also likely, though those are very hard to pin down after all this time. I think the dial (small Gothic numerals, RR appearing to be offset, to the right) and the hands (wine-coloured) would have been consistent throughout the run (except, of course, where a Brotherhood dial was fitted).

As most of us know, the story of Ball watches is complex. For that reason, the book has, yet, to be written!
 

Kent

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Fred, you cheated and looked at the watch. I was going by the detailed listing.
Code:
Year of Manufacture:	1900-1909	Number of Jewels:	23 Jewels
Closure:	Open Face	Pocket Watch Size:	16
Features:	Mint Ball Railroad, 12-Hour Dial, 24-Hour Dial, Arabic Numerals	MPN:	
Does Not Apply
Movement:	Mechanical (Hand-winding)	Material:	Yellow Gold Filled
Country/Region of Manufacture:	United States	Serial Number:	B0690907
Escapement Type:	Lever	Model:	
Ball Waltham 23 Jewel
Brand:	
BALL Waltham
Tom:

Since when do you believe what the sellers state?
 

Paul Sullivan

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Here is the latest Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research list, now up to 32.

1 B060706 Pendant Set
2 B060708 Setting unknown
3 B060710 Lever set
4 B060713 Pendant Set
5 B060729 Pendant Set
6 B060759 Lever set
7 B060768 Pendant Set
8 B060771 Setting unknown
9 B060773 Pendant Set
10 B060778 Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
11 B060783 Pendant Set
12 B060809 Lever Set
13 B060812 Pendant Set
14 B060836 Pendant Set
15 B060841 Pendant Set
16 B060842 Pendant Set
17 B060863 Lever Set
18 B060869 Setting unknown
19 B060890* Pendant Set
20 B060909* Lever set (23J)
21 B060915 Lever Set
22 B060972 Pendant Set
23 B061018 Setting unknown
24 B061021 Pendant Set
25 B061026 Pendant Set
26 B061060 Pendant Set
27 B061063 Setting unknown
28 B061075 Pendant Set
29 B061078 Pendant Set
30 B061093 Pendant Set
31 B061095 Pendant Set
32 B061099 Setting unknown

* indicates latest addition

Paul
 

johnbscott

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Today I took delivery of a copy of the Complete Price Guide to Watches No. 38, the edition for this year 2018. On page 156 of the book there is a movement image (not sufficiently clear as to show fine detail) of what is stated to be Ball-Waltham 16s 23J serial number B060915. That is item 21 in the list, above. It appears, then, that there are at least two 23J movements in the first run of Ball-Waltham movements.
 

Paul Sullivan

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Here is the latest Ball-Waltham ORRS First Run Research list showing B060915 as a 23j movement as per John's above message.

I also see that B060890 is currently up for sale again online.

1 B060706 Pendant Set
2 B060708 Setting unknown
3 B060710 Lever set
4 B060713 Pendant Set
5 B060729 Pendant Set
6 B060759 Lever set
7 B060768 Pendant Set
8 B060771 Setting unknown
9 B060773 Pendant Set
10 B060778 Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
11 B060783 Pendant Set
12 B060809 Lever Set
13 B060812 Pendant Set
14 B060836 Pendant Set
15 B060841 Pendant Set
16 B060842 Pendant Set
17 B060863 Lever Set
18 B060869 Setting unknown
19 B060890 Pendant Set
20 B060909* Lever set (23J)
21 B060915 Lever set (23J)
22 B060972 Pendant Set
23 B061018 Setting unknown
24 B061021 Pendant Set
25 B061026 Pendant Set
26 B061060 Pendant Set
27 B061063 Setting unknown
28 B061075 Pendant Set
29 B061078 Pendant Set
30 B061093 Pendant Set
31 B061095 Pendant Set
32 B061099 Setting unknown

* indicates latest addition

Paul
 

Paul Sullivan

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Hi John,

Here is the another updated list with the two additions you made, B061043
and B061048. I have also re-inserted B061026 and B061093 which were left out.
(B060710, B061026, and B061093 were inserted based on their being reported
as "accurate" on the PWDB)

Ball / Walth. ORRS First Run list

1 B060706 Pendant Set
2 B060708 Pendant Set
3 B060710 Lever set
4 B060713 Pendant Set
5 B060729 Pendant Set
6 B060759 Lever Set
7 B060768 Pendant Set
8 B060771 Setting unknown
9 B060773 Pendant Set
10 B060778 Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set)
11 B060783 Pendant Set
12 B060809 Lever Set
13 B060812 Pendant Set
14 B060836 Pendant Set
15 B060841 Pendant Set
16 B060842 Pendant Set
17 B060863 Lever Set
18 B060869 Setting unknown
19 B060890 Pendant Set
20 B060909 Lever set (23J)
21 B060915 Lever set (23J)
22 B060972 Pendant Set
23 B061018 Setting unknown
24 B061021 Pendant Set
25 B061026 Pendant Set
26 B061043* Partial Mvmnt. (only barrel plate seen)
27 B061048* Pendant set, found with BLE insert, first run ORRS dial.
28 B061060 Pendant Set
29 B061063 Setting unknown
30 B061075 Pendant Set
31 B061078 Pendant Set
32 B061093 Pendant Set
33 B061095 Pendant Set
34 B061099 Setting unknown

* Most recent additions to the list.
 

johnbscott

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Thanks, Paul. I was hoping that you might step in.

I have images for all but eleven of the 34 watch movements. I am missing 710, 768, 773, 778, 841, 869, 915, 1018, 1026, 1093 and 1095.

It would be great if some of the missing images could be posted.

We now have found 8.5% of the run of 400 watches.
 

johnbscott

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I have just noticed that B061048 still has its BLE plug but it has now lost its first run dial. A later Ball ORRS dial has been fitted.

As previously noted, there must be very few early run Ball-Waltham ORRS watches still in their original configuration. The tendency will be for serious collectors and restorers to become more and more confused as time goes by.
 

Paul Sullivan

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Here is a revised list of the Walh. ORRS First Run showing list of
movements with no pictures marked (**).

1 B060706 Pendant Set
2 B060708 Pendant Set
3 B060710 Lever set **
4 B060713 Pendant Set
5 B060729 Pendant Set
6 B060759 Lever Set
7 B060768 Pendant Set **
8 B060771 Setting unknown
9 B060773 Pendant Set **
10 B060778 Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set) **
11 B060783 Pendant Set
12 B060809 Lever Set
13 B060812 Pendant Set
14 B060836 Pendant Set
15 B060841 Pendant Set **
16 B060842 Pendant Set
17 B060863 Lever Set
18 B060869 Setting unknown **
19 B060890 Pendant Set
20 B060909 Lever set (23J)
21 B060915 Lever set (23J) **
22 B060972 Pendant Set
23 B061018 Setting unknown **
24 B061021 Pendant Set
25 B061026 Pendant Set **
26 B061043* Partial Mvmnt. (only barrel plate seen)
27 B061048* Pendant set, found with BLE insert, first run ORRS dial.
28 B061060 Pendant Set
29 B061063 Setting unknown
30 B061075 Pendant Set
31 B061078 Pendant Set
32 B061093 Pendant Set **
33 B061095 Pendant Set **
34 B061099 Setting unknown

Bold* latest addition.

** movements that have yet be photographed.

BTW, in the previous message board I was able to to past an Excel list (like the ORRS) into a word doc. as a table then cut and past he table in the forum. That way other members could select it and past it directly into excel with columns intact. I see you can insert tables in the above menu, but so far I haven't figured out how get a table between these "".
 

johnbscott

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We can now add B060976, setting unknown, recently seen for sale on eBay. The movement looks fine but, as offered, the watch had the wrong dial, hands and case.
 

Fred Hansen

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I recently saw B060846, Ball & Co. Official RR Standard marked mvt and dial, 17 jewel, I do not recall setting.
 

johnbscott

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Thanks, Fred. I am hoping that Paul Sullivan will kindly update the serial number listing, as usual.

We now know of 36 surviving movements from the first run of 400 16s Ball ORRS watches, representing 9%. For clarity, it might be reiterated that all of these are 17J movements, except for B060909 and B060915, which are 23J movements.

Also for clarity, the correct ORRS dial for these first run watches is the one shown in post #5 of this thread. It is distinctive because the RR part of the ORRS logo appears to be offset to the right. Ball corrected that for subsequent ORRS dials. That first ORRS dial was used, also, in a few ORRS runs (i.e. for a couple of years) beyond the first run, but to a limited extent. The colour logo Brotherhood dials were coming to be frequently seen, by then.
 

Paul Sullivan

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Here is a revised list of the Walh. ORRS First Run showing list of
movements
(those with no pictures marked ** , * indicates latest addition.

1 B060706 Pendant Set
2 B060708 Pendant Set
3 B060710 Lever set **
4 B060713 Pendant Set
5 B060729 Pendant Set
6 B060759 Lever Set **
7 B060768 Pendant Set
8 B060771 Setting unknown
9 B060773 Pendant Set **
10 B060778 Setting unspecified (probably Pendant Set) **
11 B060783 Pendant Set
12 B060809 Lever Set
13 B060812 Pendant Set
14 B060836 Pendant Set
15 B060841 Pendant Set **
16 B060842 Pendant Set
17 B060846* Setting unknown
18 B060863 Lever Set
19 B060869 Setting unknown **
20 B060890 Pendant Set
21 B060909 Lever set (23J)
22 B060915 Lever set (23J) **
23 B060972 Pendant Set
24 B060976* Setting unknown
25 B061018 Setting unknown **
26 B061021 Pendant Set
27 B061026 Pendant Set
28 B061043 Partial Mvmnt. (only barrel plate seen)
29 B061048 Pendant set, found with BLE insert, first run ORRS dial.
30 B061060 Pendant Set
31 B061063 Setting unknown
32 B061075 Pendant Set
33 B061078 Pendant Set
34 B061093 Pendant Set
35 B061095 Pendant Set
36 B061099 Setting unknown

Paul






* indicates latest addition 11/4/2018
 
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Fred Hansen

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Another to add ...

B061007 - 17J, Pendant set, 17J, Ball & Co. Official RR Standard marked mvt, later style Ball Watch Co. Official RR Standard marked dial
 

johnbscott

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Just to remind us all, this is what a First Run Ball-Waltham ORRS watch looked like. The hinged case (Keystone, no lever slot), the wine-coloured hands and the First Run ORRS dial are all part of the package. The movement B060706 has the earliest known serial number. Both dial and movement are marked "Ball & Co" (not "Ball Watch Co").

Ball-QWalt 16s B060706 dial.jpg Ball-Walt 16s B060706 movt.jpg
 

Paul Sullivan

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us+massachusetts.gif
#84 Sunday at 10:14 PM

Fred, I added B060107 to the list. Also, is there a picture of the movement?


Here is a revised list of the first run 16s Ball/Waltham OFFICIAL RAILROAD STANDARD watches, showing the list of known movements and their setting type. All but two are 17j

From johnbscott post #1
  • "Waltham produced the movements of the first Ball Official RR Service watches sold in 16 size. These movements are included in the Waltham serial number listing (Gray Book) as 9060701 – 9061100 having 23 jewels and being lever set.
  • Ball numbered these 400 watches B060701 – B0601100. Contrary to the Waltham listing, most known examples of the watches have 17 jewels and, surprisingly for railroad grade 16 size watches, a good proportion are arranged for pendant setting."

Those movements with no pictures seen marked: **
Bold serial no. indicates latest additions.

1 B060706 Pendant Set
2 B060708 Pendant Set
3 B060710 Lever set **
4 B060713 Pendant Set
5 B060729 Pendant Set
6 B060759 Lever Set **
7 B060768 Pendant Set
8 B060771 Setting unknown
9 B060773 Pendant Set **
10 B060778 Setting unknown**
11 B060783 Pendant Set
12 B060809 Lever Set
13 B060812 Pendant Set
14 B060836 Pendant Set
15 B060841 Pendant Set **
16 B060842 Pendant Set
17 B060846* Setting unknown
18 B060863 Lever Set
19 B060869 Setting unknown **
20 B060890 Pendant Set
21 B060909 Lever set (23J) **
22 B060915 Lever set (23J)
23 B060972 Pendant Set
24 B060976* Setting unknown
25 B061007* Pendant Set
26 B061018 Setting unknown **
27 B061021 Pendant Set
28 B061026 Pendant Set
29 B061043 Partial Mvmnt. (only barrel plate seen)
30 B061048 Pendant set, found with BLE insert, first run ORRS dial.
31 B061060 Pendant Set
32 B061063 Setting unknown
33 B061075 Pendant Set
34 B061078 Pendant Set
35 B061093 Pendant Set
36 B061095 Pendant Set
37 B061099 Setting unknown

37 of the 400 movements made have been seen since the start of the thread on October 18, 2012,
6 years and 3 weeks ago.
22 movements are pendant set, 7 movements are lever set, and 8 have unknown setting type.
All but 2 movements are 17j. and those two (B060909 & B060915) have 23j


Paul

* indicates latest addition 11/4/2018 and 11/8/2018
 

johnbscott

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Well, now, we have another first run Ball-Waltham ORRS watch. This one is special in that it is totally original. The whole watch shows no abuse, just expectable wear and tear from responsible use over more than a century.

The serial number is B060837, so it is the 137thBall-Waltham. It has 17 jewels and it is pendant set. It is the 38thfirst run Ball-Waltham ORRS watch seen since this thread began, about six years ago, so we are nearly up to 10% of that first run of 400 watches.

As received, the balance staff was broken but its careful replacement with a standard 1899 model Waltham 4860 friction staff was straight-forward and no disturbance of the fundamental time-keeping properties of the movement was incurred. I noticed that the balance arms were inscribed (by hand) 9060837. The pallet has fixed banking (on the pallet bridge), as expected. After the repair and a thorough clean, the physical condition of the movement is pristine, throughout, and it is keeping perfect time, as expected.

I had some trouble with the case. The stem sleeve was broken and tightly jammed in - I had a struggle to remove it whilst avoiding damage. The winding crown was worn more than I like. I contributed a new sleeve and a correct replacement winding crown (of characteristic shape). The case is Keystone 6478340 of 25-year quality. There is no Ball Model marking on the case (as expected, for the first run). The antique bow has the expected squared off pin housings that seem to be peculiar to the Keystone cases (mostly) applied to the very early Ball-Waltham ORRS watches. Clearly, the case was intended for pendant setting as it has no lever slot.

The watch came to me from Colorado. I hope it was used on the narrow gauge at some stage of its life. If so, it was treasured and well cared for, not knocked about as often the watches were. Alternatively, the watch may have been the property of a discerning businessman, keen to carry a watch of a quality equal to that of the watches carried by the Engineers of the trains that he caught. I had to pay a bit of money for the watch, but that is entirely my own fault for publicising the virtues of such items. I doubt whether I really need to buy any more!

I attach some photographs to illustrate the foregoing.

Ball-Walt 16s B060837 case 1.jpeg Ball-Walt 16s B060837 case 2.jpeg Ball-Walt 16s B060837 case 3.jpeg Ball-Walt 16s B060837 dial.jpeg Ball-Walt 16s B060837 movt.jpeg
 

Fred Hansen

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Aug 18, 2002
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Another one to add ...

B060797, Ball & Co, B of LE Standard, 17J, pendant-set
 
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johnbscott

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Feb 25, 2007
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Thanks, Fred. Now we have 39 reported ORRS from the first run of 16s, just short of 10% of the 400 understood to have composed the first run.

It is to be hoped that people are continuing to keep their eyes peeled for more and that they will continue to report their observations - serial number, jewel count and setting style. Clear photographs are always desirable, of course.
 
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Fred Hansen

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Small bit of info for the list - B061018 is pendant set
 

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