Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Fred Hansen, Jul 16, 2008.

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  1. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Early on Hamilton made some 17 jewel 18 size watches for Ball that were marked "Adjusted" and were also marked with a large capital letter "A" on the barrel bridge.

    I'd like to start a thread here studying these "Adjusted A" watches a little closer and looking at a few features.

    Here are pics of an example at serial #90460 ...




     

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  2. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Pics of another example at serial #90217, posted here with permission from Jones-Horan auction ...

    29.jpg

    30.jpg

    Fred
     
  3. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Both watches above have some similar features ...

    - Double-sunk dial
    - Movement and dial marked "Ball & Co."
    - Circular damaskeen but with wide spacing ... most circular damaskeened 18 size Hamilton-Ball have about 9 circular lines, but these each only have 3 circular lines. The damaskeen also has a little bit of floral decoration around the center jewel

    But these two watches do also have one notable difference ... #90217 is marked "Sapphire Pallets" but #90460 is not.

    From what I remember, most examples I've seen have been marked "Sapphire Pallets". An interesting thing about this marking on examples I've seen is that it is in a different font than the other movement marks, and the marking is not inlet with black coloring. The first time I saw one of these it looked a bit odd, but after I'd seen a few identical I no longer doubted it.

    Fred
     
  4. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    #4 Fred Hansen, Jul 16, 2008
    Last edited: Oct 17, 2008
    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    I'd be interested in any info on examples of these "Adjusted A" Hamilton-Ball watches and am especially interested in whether or not examples are marked "Sapphire Pallets" and also if the watch has any other features different than the two examples posted here.

    I'll look in my notes for any others and will start a database here in this post and will update this post as more info comes in. Thanks in advance to anyone that can contribute data and I'm looking forward to trying to figure this puzzle out!

    90216 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90217 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90258 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90358 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90460 - Adjusted A, not marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90539 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"

    Fred
     
  5. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Fred,

    I didn't pay enough attention to all the details when I put these in my data base.

    Here are the numbers that I know something about between 90201 and 90720.

    90201 999 Ball & CO ORRS SR
    90216 999 ORRS "A"
    90217 999 ORRS "A" DS
    90232 999 Ball & Co ORRS SR
    90242 999 Ball & CO ORRS
    90346 999 Ball & CO ORRS
    90458 999 ORRS "A"
    90460 999 ORRS "A" DS
    90490 999 Ball & Co ORRS "A"
    90528 999 Ball & Co ORRS
    90537 999 Ball & Co ORRS "A"
    90538 999 Ball & Co ORRS "A"
    90539 999 Ball & Co ORRS "A"
    90546 999 Ball & CO ORRS SR DS
    90557 999 Ball & CO ORRS SR
    90576 999 Ball & CO ORRS SR DS
    90624 999 Ball & CO B of LE SR DS
    90710 999 Ball & Co ORRS SR
    90720 999 ORRS "A"

    Happy hunting,

    Bill Kapp

     
  6. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Thanks Bill ... much appreciated and your observations match mostly with what I've seen but I do notice some differences from what I'd expected.

    The "Adjusted A" movements I'd seen and jotted down serial numbers on had all been between the low 90200's to the low-mid 90500's serial numbers. I don't think I'd seen any other movement types mixed in this range. But your list shows 90232 as a "Single Roller" and then has 90242, 90346, and 90528 as ORRS with no note of extra markings. If possible I'd definitely be interested in any photos of any of these.

    I did have serial number 90720 in my notes but as marked "Single Roller" rather than "A". So our notes don't match for this one. Unfortunately though I didn't make any note of when or where I saw this watch. If anyone can check and confirm the markings of 90720 I'd appreciate it.

    Fred

    p.s. For right now I think I'll keep the list in the 4th post of this thread separate for movements where the presence/absence of the "Sapphire Pallets" marking is known ... but any info in this thread on these Adjusted A movements is welcome and appreciated.
     
  7. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Serial #90216 is marked "Sapphire Pallets" and is pictured in Roy Ehrhardt's 1979 Price Indicator.

    Fred
     
  8. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Serial #90358 is an "Adjusted A" and is marked "Sapphire Pallets".

    Fred
     
  9. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    #9 BILL KAPP, Jul 17, 2008
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 17, 2013
    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Fred,

    I have no pics of any of these. One of the observations (90460) was a month or so ago on ebay but most of them came early on and if not from the price guides or similar sources, they came from that thread Ball & Co vs Railroad watch Co

    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?14490-Ball-Co-vs-Railroad-Watch-Co

    At the time I was more focused on the runs up to 42k that had Pl's , brotherhoods and Ball marked movements and dials.

    Glad you are taking the time to clean up and clarify some of this data.

    Thanks,

    Bill
     
  10. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Thanks Bill and I appreciate your posting the data in this and the other threads.

    I found a photo of serial #90720 in Roy Ehrhardt's 1980 Price Indicator and it is "Single Roller" marked but not marked with the "A". It also has the more typical narrow circular damaskeen pattern.

    The "Single Roller" marked Ball watches are also very interesting and would make a terrific thread of their own ... I'm thinking they could give me a good project to start for next week ... :)

    Fred
     
  11. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Ed and I have 90720 listed as single roller, attributed to Greg Frauenhoff in July, 2001. Apparently, he discussed it on the Message Board, judging from the way we have it listed.
     
  12. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Oh yeah, we also have:

    90578 SR
    90692 SR
     
  13. terry hall

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    I have

    90617
    "Adjusted"
    "Single Roller"

    "Sapphire Pallets"

    Double Sunk dial ORRS ball & co patent info at bottom
     
  14. pocketwatchdog1

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    I have Ser. No. 90258:
    marked sapphire pallets
    marked Ball & Company
    wide pattern
    D. S. Ball ORRS dial;
    marded Ball & Company
    also marked Ball's Standard Dial patent applied for

    Cheers!
    Joel W. Sarich
     
  15. Douglas Romero

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    Fred, Thanks for reminding me I still have it. An updated pix of 90217. I wondered about the marking for "Sapphire Pallets" also. Did not know if marking inlet should have been with black coloring. Thanks for pointing that out. (i)
     

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  16. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    This one was just seen at the at the Mid-South Chattanooga Regional:

    90403 18-size, 17-jewel "Single Roller - Official BoLE Standard" with a double-sunk "Official BoLE Standard" (in black) dial.

    I've seen a lot of 18-size Hamilton-Ball watches but this is the first time I've seen a double-sunk brotherhood dial. Has anybody else seen another one?
     
  17. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted

    I've seen a few others but not too many.

    A similar B of LE watch with the same double-sunk dial was sold on eBay about 1 1/2 years ago.

    Another double-sunk B of LE dial was paired to an early B of LF movement and listed in the 2002 Antiquorum auction. I'm not sure if this movement/dial combo have remained intact in the years since.

    A loose double-sunk O of RC dial turned up a few years ago. This dial changed hands and was then put onto an earlier O of RC movement.

    Fred
     
  18. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    #18 BILL KAPP, Sep 15, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    If you check the hamilton records , you will see that the factory records shipped 90201-90600 as "Uniform Standard".



    That had always puzzled me and you can see from Fred's pics that the dials were pretty typical ORRS.

    But take a look at this dial that I have attatched! I have never seen an ORRS "A" with this dial so obviously there was a change in plans from when they left the factory and Ball decided to market them. I can't find any mention of the dial in any of my Ball Catalogs and haven't been able to locate any trademark registration.


    Kent, I believe I saw 90403 on Ebay a while back and it now has A Ball's Standard Railroad Watch Co Barrel bridge with the serial # 20708 stamped on the underside.
    happy hunting
     

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  19. terry hall

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    #19 terry hall, Sep 15, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2011
    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Bill,
    any provenance that places this dial on this watch in that time frame and not a later switch?

    EDIT....

    Wait a minute there Bill......... I SEE.... 'UNIFORM RR Standard'.... hmmmmmm :eek:
     
  20. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    I saw serial number 90403 at a mart three years ago. It had a barrel bridge marked B of LE Standard - Single Roller and had a matching (black) B of LE double-sunk dial.
     
  21. terry hall

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    SWITCHERS AND FAKERS :}:devil::devil::devil:
     
  22. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Kent,
    Right up to 1900 Ball still had Howard BLE and ORC in stock.

    The problem with 18 SZ Hamilton BLE and ORC ball and Co movements is that they are similar to the plugs we find on the 16 size movements. The barrels have no serial numbers underneath . Ball probably used these bridges to fill orders but it makes it difficult to know which are done by Ball and which are done by modern day collectors.

    I have compiled a list and show the various A,B,C,D,E,F from early runs.
    http://community.nawcc.org/Chapter52/Pages/BallCoList/

    If your BLF or BRT isn't in the expected D or C grouping , Be cautious!

    BLE and ORC, Correct dial is paramount. I suppose someone could stamp serial numbers on blank undersides, but if they aren't supposed to be there, then that would be an indication of something also.

    happy hunting,
     
  23. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Well yeah ........., but where is a modern day collector going to get a double-sunk Ball BofLE dial and a matching barrel bridge with which to make up a complete watch?
     
  24. BILL KAPP

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    #24 BILL KAPP, Sep 16, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Kent,

    I have heard that several decades ago, all sorts of Plugs, barrels and dials were discovered when Ball closed down.

    I wonder where that double sunk dial and barrel bridge is now! It apparantly has moved since you saw it at the mart.

    I have always thought that one of the reasons Ball and Co ORRS are surprisingly scarce is that many of them have undergone conversions. The premium attatched to the brotherhoods has resulted in many "upgrades".

    happy hunting,
     
  25. BILL KAPP

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    #25 BILL KAPP, Sep 16, 2011
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2011
    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Kent,

    FWIW here is 90403 as of April 2010!!:eek:

    90624 is reported as a BLE with DS dial!

    happy hunting
     

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  26. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Bill:

    As always, when Ed or I report from our data base, there is the possibility of error (Lord knows, we come across enough of them).
     
  27. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    90220 DS ORRS "A" marked Saphire pallet 90220dial.jpg 90220mvmt.jpg

    90101-90150 Left Hamilton as 999F's. From my data base, it appears they should all have W C B Dials. At least one of them is reported with a replacement WCB Barrel bridge.

    90201-90600 left the factory designated Uniform Standard, but some of them have been reported as SR
    90601-90750 left the factory designated as 999F's but have been reported as a variety of SR and or DS a BLE , but all marked Ball & Co on mvmt.
    90750-90800 left the factory designated as 999G's!! 90801-90950 designated as 999F's. All my reports show all these ended up as Commercial STD most with Ball Watch Co dial & (movement?) markings but some with Ball & CO markings.

    Hope to have 90220 in hand next week and will have Marty remove the barrel bridge to check the serial number.
     
  28. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    I have 25 sightings in the range of 90201-90600 14 are A and 8 are SR, 3 are unknown, assuming that proportion holds for the run of 400, I would expect the following:

    from serial #'s 90201-90600, estimate about 250 A's and 150 SR

    In these next two runs all sighting are of Single Roller

    Single Roller movements from serial # 90600=90750, 150 SR
    Single Roller Movements from serial # 170101-170400 300 SR

    All of these have DS Dials. Total of approx 250 A and 600 SR

    happy hunting
     
  29. Nigel Harrison

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    That is interesting that they are all DS dials Bill, that is very uncommon for Ball in itself! Thanks for the info.
     
  30. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    #30 Fred Hansen, Aug 18, 2013
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Here's "Adjusted A" serial #90457 with double-sunk dial and not marked "Sapphire Pallets" ...

    xyzzytom_189812 xyzzytom_189813
     
  31. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Fred, pics don't come up for me, thanks for the report!

    Nigel, I only track thru the Ball & CO ending at serial # 170400. In that range the only other DS dials are found on the Ball's Standard Railroad Watch co at serial #'s 20501-20800. IMO any other DS dials below 170400 would be replacement dials.

    happy hunting
     
  32. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Some of the Commercial Standard grade movements also had double-sunk dials ...

    60.jpg

    61.jpg
     
  33. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Fred, You are correct. I have reports of two others 90916 and 90922 Commercial standards with double sunk dials. They are reported as Ball Watch Co dials as are the movements. Your 90773 is the first I have seen or had reported as marked Ball & Co on the dial and not matching the movement!!

    Thank you.


    happy hunting
     
  34. BILL KAPP

    BILL KAPP Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Fred,

    I do see 170429 with a single sunk Commercial standard Ball & Co dial on a Ball Watch Co movement also! Learning all the time! Has anyone seen an 18sz Ball Hamilton movement marked commercial standard and also marked 170429.jpg 170429mvmt.jpg Ball & CO ? Did Greg report 90938 as Ball & CO. Sometimes the reports are ambiguous.
     
  35. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    69.jpg
     
  36. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    70.jpg
     
  37. eworth

    eworth Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Double entry. Sorry. See below.
     

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  38. eworth

    eworth Registered User

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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    A recent acquisition that may benefit the cause. Adjusted "A" Sapphire Pallets marking DS Dial as one would expect to see for this serial number. Came to me uncased.. 233252.jpg 233253.jpg
     
  39. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Re: Ball-Hamilton 18 size Adjusted "A"

    Congrats on a beautiful example of this scarce watch, a lot of the early Ball movements have a lot of stray scratches and marks but your movement plates looks extremely nice!
     
  40. BILL KAPP

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  41. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
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    Another for the list ...

    90435 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"

    So far it looks like all "Adjusted A" movements are falling in the 90201-90550 serial range with examples as follows ...

    90216 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90217 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90226 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90258 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90358 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90435 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90457 - Adjusted A, not marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90460 - Adjusted A, not marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    90539 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"

    Still interested in hearing of any others out there, or any watches with different markings that are in the 90201-90550 range.
     
  42. rrwatch

    rrwatch Registered User
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    Attached are all the Ball serial numbers in the 90,201 to 90,550 from the database that Kent and I maintain. Data has been collected from many sources and are subject to the usual chance of errors.

    Make Name/Grade Grade Sz Jwl Dial Case Mat'l Case Style Serial No. Condition Comments
    Ball Ham Ball & Co 999 E 18 17 DS AN BM Display 90,216 C Mint Adj A, Type 2, ORRS Dial "Ball's Standard Dial"
    Ball ORRS "A" 18 90,216 "A"
    Ball ORRS "A" 18 17 OF Mvt 90,216 Adj "A" Mvt Marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    Ball ORRS "A" 18 17 DS AN YGF ET SB&B 90,217 HL @ 10 Min, Recase "Adjusted A" Mvt "Sapphire Pallets" Circular Damaskeen but w/ wide spacing, Mvt and Dial Marked "Ball & Co." Ball Pierced Hds, Fahys Montauk 20 Yr Case #9280693

    Ball ORRS "A" 17 DS AN Yellow SB&B 90,217 HL @ 10 Min "Adjusted A" Mvt "Sapphire Pallets" Circular Damaskeen but w/ wide spacing, Mvt and Dial Marked "Ball & Co." Ball Pierced Hds

    Ball ORRS "A" 18 17 DS AN Yellow SB&B 90,220 Missing WhpSpg, Reg off to one side LS, Adj "A" Mvt Marked "Sapphire Pallets"

    Ball ORRS "A" 999 18 17 DS AN OF Mvt Only 90,228 Missing Sed Hd (Post is there), Edge Chip @ 03 Min LS, "Adjusted A" Mvt "Sapphire Pallets - Ball & Co." Circular Damaskeen but w/ wide spacing, Dial "Ball & Co."

    Ball Ham 18 17 90,232 Adj, SR
    Ball Ham 18 17 90,242 ORRS
    Ball Ham Ball & Co. 999 18 DS AN White Hinged 90,242 HL @ 6 Min, Edge Chip & HL @ 11 Min, Inner Edge Chip to Copper @ 52-54 Min, Recase Adj, SR

    Ball Ham 18 17 DS Yellow SB&B 90,258 Marked "Sapphire Pallets" Wide Damaskeened Mvt & Dial "Ball & Company"

    Ball Ham Ball & Co. 17 Brass Loco 90,346 Official RR Standard
    Bal Ham 999 DS 90,358 Adj "A"
    Ball ORRS "A" 18 17 OF Mvt 90,358 Adj "A" Mvt Marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    Ball BoLE 18 17 Blk BoLE DS AN YGF HB&B 90,403 HL @ 58-02 Min LS, BoLE Std "Single Roller" J Boss Cas e #267304

    Ball Ham RR Watch Co. 18 17 White SB&B 90,403 Recase Mtt "Ball's Standard - Railroad Watch Co. - Adjusted - Cleveland, O." Bil says "Barrel bridge with the serial # 20708 stamped on the underside."

    Ball ORRS "A" 18 17 DS AN Yellow SB&B 90,457 "Adjusted - A" NOT Marked "Sapphire Pallets"
    Ball ORRS "A" 17 DS 90,458 "A"
    Ball ORRS "A" 999 18 17 DS AN YGF SB&B 90,460 Adj "A" 20 Yr Muhr Case #58653
    Ball ORRS "A" 18 17 DS AN OF Mvt 90,460 Chip @ Lever LS, Adj "A" Mvt NOT Marked "Sapphire Pallets" Circular Damaskeen but w/ wide spacing, Mvt and Dial Marked "Ball & Co."

    Ball ORRS "A" 18 17 DS AN Yellow SB&B 90,460 Recase Adj "A" Mvt NOT Marked "Sapphire Pallets" Circular Damaskeen but w/ wide spacing, Mvt and Dial Marked "Ball & Co."

    Ball Ham 999 18 17 DS AN YGF HB&B 90,490 HL. Sm Edge Repair, Wear, Runs LS, Adj "A"
    Ball Ham 999 90,490 Adj "A"
    Ball Ham Ball & Co. 999 18 DS AN Yellow Hinged 90,513 Edge Chip @ 5 LS, Adj "A
    Ball Ham 999 90,528 ORRS
    Ball Ham 999 90,537 Adj "A"
    Ball Ham 999 18 17 DS AN GF HB&B 90,538 Not Ball Case, Adj A
    Ball Ham 999 90,539 Adj "A"
    Ball Ham 999 DS 90,546 "Single Roller"
     
  43. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 18, 2002
    5,276
    121
    63
    Country Flag:
    Another to add ...

    90219 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
     
  44. Fred Hansen

    Fred Hansen Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 18, 2002
    5,276
    121
    63
    Country Flag:
    Two more ...

    90212 and 90536 - Adjusted A, marked "Sapphire Pallets"
     

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