Ball BRT 18s 21j triple signed

jpierzynski

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Feb 12, 2011
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Hi All, I'd like to share a few pictures of my 21j Ball BRT SN# 42622 which is triple signed. Hopefully someone on this page can tell me if they have ever seen a case like this. I was wondering how many of these cases may exist. The dial is signed BRT and is mint, the movement is engraved BRT 21jewels and the case (made by wadsworth) back has solid 18k raised BRT letters in yellow, white, rose and green 18k solid gold. I purchased this watch off the original owners son who is now 81yrs old (yes the son is 81). His father owned this 21j BRT as well as a 19j and 17j BRT. His son (81yrs old) has many hi-end watches and never liked to let this case go when the movement was being serviced and he frequently put another movement in this case whenever the 21j BRT was being serviced which created one extra set of case marks. He has all the written documentation for the service over the past 100yrs showing the movement serial # and case # together which I hope to obtain soon but I do not have yet. Enjoy the pictures 84224.jpg 84225.jpg 84226.jpg 84227.jpg 84228.jpg 84229.jpg 84230.jpg 84231.jpg
 

Kent

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Very nice!

It's interesting that 42619 and 42623 are ORC Standard watches.
 

terry hall

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never liked to let this case go when the movement was being serviced and he frequently put another movement in this case whenever the 21j BRT was being serviced which created one extra set of case marks. He has all the written documentation for the service over the past 100yrs showing the movement serial # and case # together which I hope to obtain soon but I do not have yet.
That documentation is important for a story like that !!!

Not much of a way of estimating 'how many' of these cases existed or were manufactured.. sorry.

Still a great item for sure!

The existence of other Brotherhood markings on movements close to this serial number range proves it was a mixed run... (hooo hooo on the consecutive :eek: )
 

jpierzynski

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Feb 12, 2011
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thanks Bill, do you recall what date/year this watch was on ebay? I'm wondering if the previous owner will be able to produce service records he said he has. The watch balance has great motion and it keeps fantastic time. I usually never pay too much attention to stories, just the condition of the watch. I hope to hold this BRT for a long time, I still regret letting go a 14k solid gold Waltham split second chronometer ..a 5 star watch many yrs ago. Wish I had that one back....... regards Joe
 

BILL KAPP

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jpierzynski

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Feb 12, 2011
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Thanks for the reply Bill, so I'll add to "the story". I was told this watch left the origonal owners possession for "sometime" but it found its way home and was reaquired by said origonal owner. Not sure if I purchased a Brotherhood watch or a boomerang but "the story" was interresting so I'm still holding out hope that he has the service records he claims to have. On a sad note I understand the previous owner has fallen ill and is not doing well, hopefully he is not that ill but at 81 you never know.

regards,

Joe
 

jpierzynski

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Feb 12, 2011
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thanks Jim, I thought I also seen a pic of one some time ago but my memory is getting worse by the day. I appreciate the feedback.
 

Kent

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Sorry, Ed and I had no previous record of this watch. I just today added it to our data base.
 

BILL KAPP

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Kent and Terry,

It is interesting that the number sequence shows both BRT's and ORC's in the same run. It might not be exactly a case of a mixed run.

In anothe thread RRSTD and I were discussing 999's that the factory had assigned a B designtion and the fact that it seemed all of those left the factory as Ball or PL Orrs and RRSTD had noted that some were Brotherhoods but that all the earlier ones that he had seen were not serial stamped under the barrel bridge. That would suggest Ball had extra barrel bridges on hand that he would use to fill Brotherhood orders. It would be interesting to see if some of our posters could examine the underside of the various brotherhod barrel bridges so that we might know when this practice began or ended. I have heard that a few decades ago some of these unused barrel bridges were discovered, which makes it very important that correct dials accompany brotherhoods.

I have never had a brotherhood to examine as they have been pretty much out of my price range, but it might be an area that could be explored and add to our body of knowledge and understanding.

Fascinating stuff!!

happy hunting,
 

terry hall

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It is interesting that the number sequence shows both BRT's and ORC's in the same run. It might not be exactly a case of a mixed run
It would appear then we have different definitions of a 'mixed run'...
when two or more watches are finished differently... think about it....??

Now with the rest of your post are you suggesting the BB is a marriage on this one or others? :eek::eek:

Sure is possible of course.... :devil:
 

Jeff Hess

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:???:

Bill

please explain your theory...
-> posts merged by system <-
:???:

Bill

please explain your theory...not sure I understand.
 

Kent

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I don't have documentation for the earlier brotherhood standard watches, but the later ones were clearly ordered from Hamilton with the brotherhood markings (and perhaps dials).
 

jpierzynski

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Feb 12, 2011
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Thanks Bill, well now that you prompted me I'll spill a little more of what I am being told about "the story".....since I viewed the URL database showing this BRT sn 42622 was on ebay at one time, the story is coming together. The original owner sold the movement and dial but kept the case, putting some high end 23j movement in the case. Now I am assuming the movement showed up on ebay. The winning bidder had the movement for some time and just happened to meet the original owner of the watch, who could prove he had the original BRT case, which he proved by knowing the movement serial # and has paper work to back it up. I am friends with the assumed winning bidder who sold the movement back to the original owner (the boomerang effect). Is everyone is still hanging with "the story" so far? Well, recently the original owner contacted the one time ebay winner letting him know he was thinking of parting with the watch (again), said ebay winner called me and asked me if I was interrested....... I actually said YES before I even figured out how I was going to pay for it.........and have come to the conclusion I will be selling a few lesser notable watches from my collection to repay myself sooner or later. I will call the suspected ebay winner tonight to see if I can verify if he did indeed win this movement on ebay... the plot thickens. Thanks all, regards Joe
 

BILL KAPP

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Hi all,

These cases were available from the Brotherhood unions as subscription bonus items and were available for any watch or watch case. See vol 31 Brt journal volume 31 1914 for one example.

Pics courtesy of Tom Brown.

Thus, the additional screw marks could have a different "story"

Jeff, not sure what you need explained, perhaps this will help

"""
Bill,

Yes, the earlier brotherhood's do not appear to have serial numbers stamped on the reverse of the barrel bridge. In my opinion, the lack of this serial alone does not neccessarily make these watches suspect. Although a few theories exist, I'm not aware of any documentation which definatively outlines the reason behind this difference from other Hamilton and Hamilton-Ball watches, including the later brotherhood marked examples.

Having said that, the brotherhood Ball's (in both 16 and 18 size), have in recent years increased significantly in both value and desirability among collectors. This has resulted in an increased number of put together watches, watches with reproduction dials, etc... showing up regularly in the marketplace. This makes it more important than ever for collectors recognize correct combinations of movement markings and dial markings/styles.

Regards,

Rhett """


Terry, by "exactly" mixed runs I was referring to the possibility that they may have left Hamoilton as solid runs of Ball ORRS and converted at the Ball manufacturing facility to Brotherhoods. Of course they could have been converted later by anyone who had the proper barrel bridges. The matching dials would suggest that more likely Ball did it, which is why correct dials are so important

Happy hunting 84324.jpg 84325.jpg 45574.jpg 84327.jpg
 
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jpierzynski

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Feb 12, 2011
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Bill, thank you so much, that is the type of case information I was looking for. I won't be around forever so I like to leave little written descriptions of my watches and how they ran in position at the time I owned them, no sense of me diggin up this info just to forget it at a later date. So far I have no reason to doubt what I'm being told about the watch so I'm fairly confident I can come up with the service history for the watch.....I hope, fingers crossed. This gentleman has an awesome collection of Hamilton watches, I was looking at deck watches in their original wood boxes, like they were never used. He has many 18s ball watches in incredable condition which he may be letting go in the very near future, keeping my fingers crossed as I may be offered a shot at buying one. He just sold a 23j Ball Waltham, way over my head, went for big money.

regards,

Joe
 

jpierzynski

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Feb 12, 2011
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Well Gents, I spoke to my friend and this is the scoop in a nutshell. The original owner liked to swap his other high end ball movements in and outa this BRT case, and in his older old age he parted with the original 21j movement. The new owner placed the movement in a crappy case and the watch was sold a second time. The next owner put the watch on ebay, and the ebay winner sold the watch to my friend who knew the original owner. After a little barganing, the the 21 jewel BRT movement was reunited with its original BRT case. After a week of owning the watch I'm happy to report it keeps fantastic time.

regards,

Joe
 

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