Baird advertising clock lettering color

[rzman1964]

I have this beautiful tobacco clock my friend put back together for me. It came from a hoarder house and I'm just trying to make it better without decreasing the value.
Maybe touch up the lettering and the gold leaf, Does anyone know the correct color... Thank you Clock Guy

 

[JTD]

Welcome to the board.

Can't really help you with the exact gold color for the lettering - maybe 'antique gold' or 'old gold' are two you could consider. You can experiment with products such as 'Rub 'n' Buff' which come in various shades.

The minute hand seems to be too long - it seems to be almost touching the bezel. That could be shortened as there is plenty of 'tip'.

JTD

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

I have this beautiful tobacco clock my friend put back together for me. It came from a hoarder house and I'm just trying to make it better without decreasing the value.
Maybe touch up the lettering and the gold leaf, Does anyone know the correct color... Thank you Clock Guy
View attachment 743249 View attachment 743250

Nice!

Good that that glass has survived!

Just sold one of those. Here's a picture of that one and another recently acquired. I am confident in the originality of their surfaces/decoration:



Sorry, not the best pix. Note gold colored lettering on both. I have another Baird, a Diamond Black Leather Oil, with a more silver color to the letters. Also, to me, appears completely original.

It's a good clock of some value. Do some research first before diving into a vigorous restoration.

I would strongly recommend Jerry Maltz's book, "Baird Advertising Clocks". Very good pix of these clocks, most in color. Lots of good info which can help with authentication and restoration.

Jerry also wrote a very good Bulletin article that would be helpful as well. Here's a link (I hope):

Baird-adv:Layout 1.qxd (nawcc.org)

Pix are b&w, so may not help with the letter coloring. Still, a good reference written by a guy who knows more about these clocks than anyone else and who is a truly nice person.

As an aside, I tried to furnish the link to that article through a Bulletin search, but the G-D Bulletin search is not working as it has not been for days now.

My first suggested step? Just gently dust and clean off the case. You may be pleasantly surprised at how much survives under those layers of dirt. You may decide to do nothing. I'm not sure that every old clock should be made to look "as good as new". It's only all original and as found just once.

Does your clock have a label? My understanding is that is these Jolly Tar clocks were made while Baird was still located in Montreal. However, absolutely original dial on mine indicated Plattsburgh, NY. The label indicated "Plattsburgh and Montreal (so dumb not to have taken a photo!) suggesting to me that my clock was made during the transition. If it does have a label, could you supply pix of it??

Nice find.

RM

 

[Willie X]

In the eyes of a collector, you probably have very little chance of making that clock any better; all but the smallest changes will be glaringly evident

A very cautious cleanup can be a plus for now and the future. Willie X

 

[RAK]

Hi rzman1964,

You posted two photos. The one with the clock laying down appears to be your "as-found" photo, and the other is while hanging on the wall after a bit of clean up.

My best guess is that these Jolly Tar clocks usually hung in tobacco stores or taverns/saloons of some sort. We have all seen a number of copies of this clock and they usually look terrible from the environment that they served in. Dark brown dial papers and a coat of nicotine that makes the clock look pretty rough. With the picture of the clock on the wall there appears to be quite a bit of the original gold lettering that survived (would never have guessed it looking at the "before" photo) which is a huge plus in my view. The case actually looks like it survived intact without any cracks or chips so it's a good clock with a replacement dial paper. My personal preference is for Bairds without repainted lettering, although I own one or two with it. No matter how well it's done, it almost never looks right. The clock is 132 years old (circa 1890). I'd tone down the dial paper a bit to better blend with the rest of the clock and leave it as original as possible.

BTW, in case anyone was wondering, both the reverse painted glass on this clock and the one on RM's clock are absolutely correct. The Schafer book on Baird clocks included a blurb that they had found an article in a Plattsburgh, NY newspaper that the Baird Co. had received an order for 10,000 of these Jolly Tar clocks. Quite the order for a small company like that.

Thanks for sharing your project, I think you have a nice clock.

Bob

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Hi rzman1964,

You posted two photos. The one with the clock laying down appears to be your "as-found" photo, and the other is while hanging on the wall after a bit of clean up.

My best guess is that these Jolly Tar clocks usually hung in tobacco stores or taverns/saloons of some sort. We have all seen a number of copies of this clock and they usually look terrible from the environment that they served in. Dark brown dial papers and a coat of nicotine that makes the clock look pretty rough. With the picture of the clock on the wall there appears to be quite a bit of the original gold lettering that survived (would never have guessed it looking at the "before" photo) which is a huge plus in my view. The case actually looks like it survived intact without any cracks or chips so it's a good clock with a replacement dial paper. My personal preference is for Bairds without repainted lettering, although I own one or two with it. No matter how well it's done, it almost never looks right. The clock is 132 years old (circa 1890). I'd tone down the dial paper a bit to better blend with the rest of the clock and leave it as original as possible.

BTW, in case anyone was wondering, both the reverse painted glass on this clock and the one on RM's clock are absolutely correct. The Schafer book on Baird clocks included a blurb that they had found an article in a Plattsburgh, NY newspaper that the Baird Co. had received an order for 10,000 of these Jolly Tar clocks. Quite the order for a small company like that.

Thanks for sharing your project, I think you have a nice clock.

Bob

Hi,

I agree that these clocks did not hang in some genteel parlor. They were in stores, bars, eateries, etc. where they were exposed to nicotine, soot from stoves and lamps, what have you. I like when they have some "patina".

Would still like to know what the label in rzman1964's clock says.

RM

 

[owen.or]

The advertising shows some age. To me that's a good thing. I would be very hesitant to do any touch up.

I think Bob is correct. It is a bit too obvious that the dial is a replacement. Does anyone have suggestions for ways to tone down the dial?

JTD may be correct that the minute hand looks a little too long; however; before you do any snipping of the hand tip, be certain the hand is a reproduction and not old. If it is old, I would definitely leave it untouched. Also, to me the dial chapter ring looks undersized. The hand might look especially long because of this. David, Owen.or

 

[Jim DuBois]

Here is one I owned years ago that was about as original as could be hoped for. It evidently hung some place where it was pretty protected. I hung it on my office wall for some time. My boss was not pleased.

 

[Willie X]

I've only worked on a few of these. Seems like one was 'Have-a-Tampa Cigars"? I always liked them ... really different. Willie

 

[JimmyOz]

Does anyone have suggestions for ways to tone down the dial?

I used to make copies of old maps look aged by using tea (omit the milk and sugar though). Print off a few paper test dials and see, it may bleed the ink?

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

The advertising shows some age. To me that's a good thing. I would be very hesitant to do any touch up.

I think Bob is correct. It is a bit too obvious that the dial is a replacement. Does anyone have suggestions for ways to tone down the dial?

JTD may be correct that the minute hand looks a little too long; however; before you do any snipping of the hand tip, be certain the hand is a reproduction and not old. If it is old, I would definitely leave it untouched. Also, to me the dial chapter ring looks undersized. The hand might look especially long because of this. David, Owen.or

The hand is the correct style. May be okay or a bit long.

I see what is meant about the chapter ring of the repop dial. Diameter may be just a bit close compared to the originals. Interesting how small details may be important.

Re: aging the dial. Interesting suggestion re: tea staining. Used for fabrics, too. In fact, tea-stained fabrics were the decorating rage at the height of shabby chic. Just the passage of time will tone it, too.

Here is one I owned years ago that was about as original as could be hoped for. It evidently hung some place where it was pretty protected. I hung it on my office wall for some time. My boss was not pleased.

View attachment 743999

Manures, huh? Didn't know that you worked in advertising. Ha.

Interesting about that clock.

Baird did make a Goulding's clock:

The version that hung in your office was actually produced by New Haven! New Haven made a few Baird-like advertising clocks like that. I don't believe they were papier mache. I recall another for some sort of whiskey but I may be confabulating.

RM

 

[owen.or]

I recall another for some sort of whiskey but I may be confabulating.

RM

You are correct. That clock advertises "Duffy's Pure Malt Whiskey". Also, FYI, Gouldings is still in business selling fertilizers. David, Owen.or

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

You are correct. That clock advertises "Duffy's Pure Malt Whiskey". Also, FYI, Gouldings is still in business selling fertilizers. David, Owen.or

Yes, that’s it!!

RM

 

[Jim DuBois]

Yes, the Golding was very definitely a New Haven made product. Stamped on movement, I don't recall the label at all. What I did learn was Baird clocks sell quicker and more easily than New Haven and for substantially more money.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Yes, the Golding was very definitely a New Haven made product. Stamped on movement, I don't recall the label at all. What I did learn was Baird clocks sell quicker and more easily than New Haven and for substantially more money.

View attachment 744087

You got that right!

However, even Bairds have come down in price. Subject matter and condition are important.

The right ones, especially cigars/tobacco including those with a local interest seem to sell okay to the advertising people, though in general, they want the American products advertised. Baird did advertising for a # of UK firms.

RM

 

[rzman1964]

Thanks everyone as I said my friend (Clock guy) made these repairs from what you see lying on the table,I let him make all the decisions on repairs
He did an outstanding job for me. what you see is the way it was found no labels no face no hands
The clock is in a corner a little dark, The letters are worn and can't see them.
The clock will be hanging in this spot until I Pass, Then my son will get it so I'm just trying to make it a little more enjoyable. with out wrecking it
PS I have some talent but clock guy has the connections and a lot more talent than me LOL.
LOVE THIS CLOCK!!!
Thanks Bob Z

 

[RAK]

Bob Z,

Your clock is a keeper and your friend did a great job making it that way.

As far as the prices of Baird clocks going down, I couldn't agree more. One that use to command $1,500 to $2,000 now is more in the $1,000 (and sometimes less) to $1,250. There are exceptions if you get the right bidders going at it. A recent example from New England Auctions sold for $3,250. This one is also advertises "Jolly Tar" but is a seldom seen version that has wooden doors w/paper Mache inserts. They graded it as Excellent and the pictures show a clock that could very well be that good. The dial paper is very nice. I was interested but once the bidding started I realized that, as Steve Miller used to sing, "your cash ain't nothing but trash" and was out before the big dogs even got started.

Bob

To the board moderator, the photo below is from the auction (which is over) and if it or my giving the prices break any current Forum rules, please feel free to remove my response. Thank you.

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Bob Z,

Your clock is a keeper and your friend did a great job making it that way.

As far as the prices of Baird clocks going down, I couldn't agree more. One that use to command $1,500 to $2,000 now is more in the $1,000 (and sometimes less) to $1,250. There are exceptions if you get the right bidders going at it. A recent example from New England Auctions sold for $3,250. This one is also advertises "Jolly Tar" but is a seldom seen version that has wooden doors w/paper Mache inserts. They graded it as Excellent and the pictures show a clock that could very well be that good. The dial paper is very nice. I was interested but once the bidding started I realized that, as Steve Miller used to sing, "your cash ain't nothing but trash" and was out before the big dogs even got started.

Bob

To the board moderator, the photo below is from the auction (which is over) and if it or my giving the prices break any current Forum rules, please feel free to remove my response. Thank you.

View attachment 745840

I just bought and sold one another version of that (see pix above) I thought was better and I paid much less. Mine was the one with the "nifty" reverse painted tablet which I like better. Would have loved to get that price for mine!! Is the version sold @ that auction rarer and so it commands a higher price??

Re: assessing the price. Somethings to consider. That particular auctioneer and that auction in particular (a famous Americana collection, Garthhoffner, is put up for sale) where just about everything brings more, sometimes a lot more, than top retail. There have been dealers and collectors probably trying to buy stuff from that collection for years. So, much really excellent stuff with a pent-up demand.

I liked this other clock from the same auction:

1718255

You may need to cut and paste the URL into the navigation bar.

WW tall case with a nice case & dial. Remember, tack on a 28% buyer's premium. And if without resale #, add CT sales tax. If paid by credit card through Liveauctioneers, add another 3%. However, would it have brought that at a routine clock auction, not one attended largely by the Americana crowd who crave "paint"??

RM

 

[RAK]

Hi RM,

Yeah, as a collector this type of clock, I would say that the high price paid for the Baird in the New England Auction was high because of several reasons, most touched on before: it's an uncommon transitional style of Baird clock (which is reason one that made it interesting to me), it's uncommon to find Bairds in truly excellent shape (reason two). I would add that we already hit on the point that tobacco related adverting clocks tended to get gunked up. I did look at the rest of the auction and was a bit surprised that everything in the auction, no matter what it was, was for the most part in superior shape (famous collection - wasn't aware of it). The last factor that didn't even cross my mind is as you said, that auction house has a reputation for getting above top dollar. Rub all those factors together and you get a top top top dollar price.

It was fun watching, Bob

 

[rmarkowitz1_cee4a1]

Hi RM,

Yeah, as a collector this type of clock, I would say that the high price paid for the Baird in the New England Auction was high because of several reasons, most touched on before: it's an uncommon transitional style of Baird clock (which is reason one that made it interesting to me), it's uncommon to find Bairds in truly excellent shape (reason two). I would add that we already hit on the point that tobacco related adverting clocks tended to get gunked up. I did look at the rest of the auction and was a bit surprised that everything in the auction, no matter what it was, was for the most part in superior shape (famous collection - wasn't aware of it). The last factor that didn't even cross my mind is as you said, that auction house has a reputation for getting above top dollar. Rub all those factors together and you get a top top top dollar price.

It was fun watching, Bob

Fun to watch.

Painfully outbid!

RM