Bains 1823/24

Allan C. Purcell

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Having bought the original copy of Baines 1823/24, plus the supplement, which only encases the maps of Lancaster, Liverpool, and close-ups of Preston, Liverpool and Lancaster, and two large charts showing the distances between English cities, and another with the populations of these cities. I thought I would copy the lists on watch-making, from the directory which as 660 pages telling you everything you would want to know about Liverpool and its environment in 1824,

On reading the "Watch & Clock-makers" list, it struck me that many of the names listed were new to me, or maybe names that were not common to me, and thought with your help we could see how many of those listed were watchmakers or just sponsors? Example, Robert & John Roskell, did have a workshop, finishing watches, but, manufacturers of the whole watch they were not. Very much the same was Joseph Johnson, John Muncas,
Thomas Beesley, Thomas Blundell, Litherland & Davies, Tobias & Co, and so on, and it was these people we see and buy most often. Now, what about Cumpsty Thomas? does anyone have a pocket what by this maker, who probably only made rough blanks? but is listed as a watchmaker. On this list their are105, six of which were also chronometer-makers, and one or two clockmakers. I don´t think they all had a shop at the same time. So what am I looking for are photographs of those on the list that are not well known or not known at all? Plus there are examples of watch-case makers having their names put watches, like Henry Fiswich of Tarlton Street Liverpool. which I have. Is anyone interested?
 

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John Matthews

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Allan

If anyone wishes to refer to the specific name you highlighted, it's Thomas Cumsty & Co, sometimes spelt Crumpsty (see Loomes) listed in Harrington Street from 1822-25. They are also listed in the jewellers section of Bains. There is also an earlier Richard Cumpsty 1796-1800 and I have seen William Cumpsty a silversmith, but I don't have any dates.

John
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Thank you, John, very interesting research, though I have to say I only wrote that up last night, and have had little time to research all those names. Though having read your research. I should, after naming Crumpsty, have looked at Loomes. So all I need now is a photograph of a Crumsty watch. Looks like Thomas was a Sponsor? By the way, the Tayloe on the list should read Taylor.

Allan.

PS: Did you look at the watchmaker's list- "Crumpsty Thomas & Co. 60, Harrington Street"? Its the name that´s intriguing.
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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upload_2020-9-27_12-1-53.png Bankrupt, and insolvent 1825. Anything by Thomas Crumpsty will now be of interest. (1822 to 1825 ) Only three years. Must try and find his Hallmarks.

Allan.
 

Allan C. Purcell

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I have not been able to find any plate marks by Thomas Crumpsty or anywhere near that name. This then. making it very hard to trace any of his work. So without hallmarks, he is left with just putting his name on a watch, maybe: He is not in my copy of Bains 1823/24 under Jewellers, he is though under Gold and Silversmiths, and they give Crumpsty Thomas. (Jeweller) 60, Harrington Street. So it would appear, he could open a shop then without registering a mark. This chap Crumpsty is getting to be more interesting than I thought. I have to ask why he is listed under Watch & Clockmakers:

Allan
 

Allan C. Purcell

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Baptism: 20 May 1781 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
Thomas Cumpstey - Son of James Cumpstey
Born: 6 Apr 1781
Abode: Hay Market
Occupation: Porter
Register: Baptisms 1780 - 1786, Page 52, Entry 44

Source: LDS Film 1656377 upload_2020-9-27_16-8-59.png upload_2020-9-27_16-11-6.png Thi1823/24 coincidence



upload_2020-9-27_16-13-33.png Again 1824.



upload_2020-9-27_16-19-33.png
http://rslc.org.uk/api/file/Vol_087.pdf

I took the document back to 1711, and could not find a Thomas Cumpsty. the one above would not fit the dates. So I have put this here because it's a useful tool for other searches for everyone.

Allan.
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Marriage: 1 Apr 1816 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
William Cumpstey - Jeweller, Liverpool
Jane Smith - Spinster, Same
Witness: James Taylor; James Smith
Married by Banns by: James Gildart, Curate
Register: Marriage 1815 - 1816, Page 231, Entry 165
Source: LDS Film 1656575

This could be a brother-still looking.


Marriage: 2 Mar 1818 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
William Cumpsty - Silversmith, Liverpool
Mary Westhead - Spinster, Liverpool
Witness: Thomas Cumpsty; Ann Birchenall
Married by Banns by: P. Bulmer Curate
Register: Marriages 1816 - 1818, Entry 72
Source: LDS Film 1656575

Begining to worry about this family-still looking

Marriage: 25 Oct 1818 St Peter, Liverpool, Lancs.
Thomas Cumstey - Jeweller, the Parish of Liverpool
Elizabeth Trevor Simcock - Spinster, the Parish of Liverpool
Witness: Wm. Cumpstey; George Parr
Married by Banns by: R. H. Roughsedge, Rector
Register: Marriages 1818 - 1820, Page 61, Entry 181
Source: LDS Film 93917

Found him, now to find out when he moved to Birmingham-or was he buriad in Liverpool?
 

Allan C. Purcell

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upload_2020-9-27_20-36-4.png It would appear our Thomas Cumpsty was on his third Bankruptcy.

I will put these bits of information together later.

Allan.
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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So enough of Cumpsty for now, unless a watch by him turns up. It appears he was some kind of "Fly by Night" I have found documents for him in Birmingham, Newcastle-upon-Tyne, and Liverpool, from 1825 to 1829. Each time for bankruptcy.

So now a little more about Bains 1823/24. In the history of Liverpool, I came across something quite strange. Opening up the large map of Lancaster I was at first surprised to see how large it was in 1824. Of course, opening a map like that one needs to orienteer its self. Liverpool to the left, Manchester to the right, and so on, looking for other places well known, and some not so well known. I then found Worsley where my family lived for over twenty years, and it was here I remembered my long walks along the Bridgewater canal, with the family dog. While following the canal on the map as far as Wigan, I came across the word "Railway".

4444-26.JPG 4444-25.JPG

I had always thought the railway from Liverpool to Manchester started c1828, and this map was from 1823/24. I then went back to Bains Vol. 1. This is what they said.

"An Iron railway, for steam impelled carriages to pass between Manchester and Liverpool, has been projected, and a survey of the line of Chester and Liverpool, has been projected, and a survey of the line of road was made in 1822, by William James, Esq. engineer, under the direction of a committee of gentlemen, principally residing here. In 1823. Mr Hartley was requested to review the line, and he reported very favourably of the undertaking. The project, however, languished till 1824, but, in the spring of this year, a deputation was appointed, consisting of Mr Ellis, Mr Sandars, and Mr Booth, of Liverpool, and Mr Kennedy, of Manchester, to proceed to the north, to inspect the Stockton and Darlington Railroad, and to view the locomotive engines at work near Sunderland. The report made by the deputation, on their return, determined the gentlemen concerned to proceed with vigour in the prosecution of their plan, and the sum of 300,00GBP, was immediately subscribed. As a preliminary measure, the committee has engaged Mr George Stephenson, of Newcastle-Upon-Tyne, and a second Brindley, as their engineer, and application will be made to parliament ib the session of 1825, for a bill to carry the object into effect. Another measure has been Suggested, the object of which is to bring Liverpool nearer to the metropolis than it is at present by sixteen miles- at least to save that distance in travelling between the first and the second commercial station in the British empire. At present it is necessary to pas round by Warrington from Liverpool before the Mersey can be crossed: to obviate this inconvenience, it is proposed to throw a chain bridge over the river at Runcorn Gap, to be connected with an entirely new line of road from Liverpool to Newcastle-Under-Line (Under- Lyme ) An apprehension that the reaction of the proposed bridge, though requiring only one pier, may interrupt the navigation of the Mersey, and some of the difficulties stand at present in the way of the execution of this plan; and the success or failure of the experiment now making, to connect the island of Anglesey with the county of Caernarvon, and thus so establish a perfect communication between England and Ireland, through North Wales, ba a suspension bridge over the Strait of Menai, may have some influence in deciding the question. A reference to the CVounty Map accompanying this volume will show both the line of projected Railway and the position of the intended suspension bridge.

So what as this to do with Horology? I don´t know if you agree but for me the railways the most important change in our lives since Harrison found the Longitude.

Have to pop out now with the dog, and give you time to think it through.

Allan.


4444-22.JPG 4444-23.JPG 4444-24.JPG
 

Allan C. Purcell

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I took a better photograph today of the lower part of the Lancashire Map. "The intended railway" is there in dotted lines, and if you look at Salford (just outside Manchester on the right) it is easier to follow. From Salford, it goes over the "Chat Moss" a place Steavenson and his Engineer had problems to support the line. Then moves South, and here you will see "Intended Railway" printed on the Map. from there to Rainhill, then Huyton, then swings North over Liverpool by Knotty Ash and West Derby, the end being somewhere near the docks.

4444-27.JPG

Allan
 
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Allan C. Purcell

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Last few words on the map railway.

A quote from J.A. Picton F.S.A. writing in 1875.

" The subject was not new in Liverpool; as early as the year 1812, immediately after the construction of Blenkinsop´s colliery railway from Middleton to Leeds, a proposal had been made for the adoption of railways as a means of travelling, and in 1822 a scheme was laid down for a general network of railways over the kingdom. These, however, were but theoretical speculations. The Stockton and Darlington Railway, the first actually worked for passengers, was opened September, 27,1825. This could only be considered a tentative experiment. Public attention was eagerly directed to the completion of the Liverpool and Manchester Line."

Allan.
 
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shinytickythings

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This is all fascinating research, Allan. Thank you for sharing it.
Could you elaborate on this book you referred to, "Baines"?
 

Allan C. Purcell

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PS: The above should read "there are 72 boxes, and on page 87 is something for the Americans.

Allan.
 
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