Bad Repair - Look what someone did

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by dashley, Aug 24, 2019.

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  1. dashley

    dashley Registered User

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    I don't know if this is an appropriate post for this area bit I just had to post it. I do hope it's OK.
    Look what someone did to fix this verge at some point. I"m still chuckling over it and surprised the repair worked. Some things never cease to amaze me. This movement (E.N Welch) although a little sticky and need of a good cleaning and lots of bushings actually was still running (a little).

    1a.jpg 2a.jpg 3a.jpg 4a.jpg 5a.jpg
     
  2. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    i can't even look at it....
     
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  3. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Yep, that's a good one! Willie X
     
  4. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    i suppose if someone were marooned on a desert island with no tools and only had some twine...

    some things can't be un-seen...
     
  5. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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  6. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    Someone needs to dig up one of our hall of shame threads and nominate this one for best of… or would that be worst of?
     
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  7. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    But...talk about creativity and ingenuity !
     
  8. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    you mean, like ordering a new one from timesavers? ingenious! o_O
     
  9. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    No I mean figuring out how to bodge together so it would work.
     
  10. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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  11. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    yes, i know... just teasing...
     
  12. Tim Orr

    Tim Orr National Membership Chair
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    Good evening, all!

    As Bruce mentioned above in Post #4 and Bangster pointed out later, though this may be an entirely improper repair, it is undeniably ingenious, and apparently did work (sorta). Would we think differently if we knew the repair had been made a century ago on a desert island by someone with few tools and just a little bit of thread, as Bruce suggested?

    As a good engineer once said to me, "The first guy who does a repair often doesn't have the right tools, materials, skills, budget, or knowledge, and has to be guided by outcome alone." Sometimes, I think we can be instructed by such things. Binding with thread sounds like something someone with fly-tying experience might resort to in a desperate situation.

    I once heard about a Kodak photofinishing repair guy who effected a successful re-assembly of a film drive mechanism using nothing more than masking tape to keep everything in alignment. The "official" method required a $1,500 assembly fixture which could only be had when shipped in from a central depot. One big difference was that the guy who did the repair didn't know that a fixture was available.

    My understanding is that Kodak had the guy write up his procedure and distributed it to every one of its field techs, which saved it a fortune on fixtures, which had not yet been distributed, while greatly reducing repair time.

    Best regards!

    Tim Orr
     
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  13. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    #13 Bruce Alexander, Aug 25, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2019
    It's simply amazing what abuse a recoil escapement can endure. You've got round wire substituting for a flat inclined surface
    I'm guessing that this clock has some very powerful mainsprings.
    I sure would like to see a video of this kludge in action.
     
  14. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    The impulse action on the repaired side of the verge will be similar to a Brocot escapement,

    Uhralt
     
  15. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Perhaps. Of course it's a recoil with raked teeth. I'm not sure I'd call this a repair. I think kludge is a good word for it but that's just my opinion.
    What about it dashley, got a video of it in action? :)
     
  16. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    That's why I limited my assessment to the impulse part only. The recoil before the impulse is given is another story.

    Uhralt
     
  17. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I think a kludge represents a non-permanent solution to a problem that could not be foreseen. My favorite example is from when I worked in aviation. We were replacing an analog flight management system with one run by computer. In the prototype we discovered that the computers started too fast for the old analog parts we still were using, so we had to delay the computers until the old stuff was online. We did that with a toggle switch that the operator had to throw after a determined amount of time. The switch was even marked "Kludge Switch". Nobody else was told what it was for. The problem was later fixed in the software and the switch removed.

    Eric
     
  18. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Okay. Well judging by the bend in what's left of the original entry pallet, I'm thinking someone didn't foresee breaking it off. :chuckling:
     
  19. Rockin Ronnie

    Rockin Ronnie Registered User
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    You see a lot of strange things when working with clocks. I try not to be too judgemental when I see things like this. Years ago folks who repaired clocks might not have had the means or opportunity to have them properly repaired and resorted to homemade remedies. These fixes must be seen in the context of the clock's history. This type of repair is certainly reversible.

    Ron
     
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  20. dashley

    dashley Registered User

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    Sorry, no video was taken before disassembly. Yes my title "Bad Repair" may be off the mark after all the repair worked. :) I'm smiling inwardly and was impressed in a sense with the creativeness of the repairman. I'm also wondering what happened that would cause the end of the verge to break off or perhaps wear down to the point it needed an artificial limb as such. The more I inspect this movement the more I realize it's going to take a lot of work to get it up and running. Someone got a little to creative with a punch and a repair on a tooth on T1. THe tooth is to short and misplaced. Also the lantern pins on this wheel really took a shot as they are bowed shaped and worn.

    2b.jpg 2c.jpg 2c.jpg 2d.jpg 2e.jpg
     
  21. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    I try to evaluate the work without speculating on the circumstances under which the work was done. There's really no way to know what those circumstances were. Regardless of how or why a clock has come to be in the condition I find it in, there is added cost of reversing substandard repairs and maintenance. Some of it is truly quite bad or "severe" and may require the abilities of a Clockmaker to fabricate replacement parts. Either that or one may need to acquire the part from someone's "bone yard" or even acquire a donor movement. We are supposed to preserve clocks and watches but what happens when the costs of reversing layers of these types of repairs far exceeds the market value of the clock? Many of these types of things are hidden deep in the details of a clock's movement. Who pays for it? Certainly not the previous owner(s). Probably not the next owner either.
     
  22. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Can we see the whole movement? Who was the maker? Not sure that the messed up verge is related to the other damage but it does suggest that someone who shouldn't have been has been messing with this clock. In my opinion a bad repair is bad repair, not a "creative alternative method". I would carefully inspect the rest of this movement before undertaking any repair work. there may be more surprises. Be sure to check the size of the main springs. It surely looks like this wheel and pinion have been overloaded. The punched pivot hole can easily be bushed and the lantern trundle replacement is a simple repair. That messed up wheel has a narrow rim and will need at least one tooth replaced and brought back into round. I would look for a replacement wheel from a donor movement unless you are equipped to make a new wheel. It may be possible to repair that wheel but it will be a challenge with that thin rim there isn't mush metal in which to anchor a new tooth.

    RC
     
  23. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Regarding the broken verge, they are hardened after being shaped fit. Someone probably tried to bend it after hardening, which will break it off. Adjustments should be made in the center, where it is still soft, but the person doing the work didn't know that.
     
  24. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    You're kind like a Med Student dissecting a cadaver in Anatomy Class as a prerequisite for being turned loose on the living.
    It would seem that this clock is a hair's breadth away from becoming a donor.
    Have fun learning with and on it. :thumb:
     
  25. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    Very inventive
    It amazes me the things people do to clocks.
    Just because they can.
     
  26. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Okay, instead of "Kludge" how about "A MacGyver" or MacGyvered? :)

    That still doesn't address the issue with T-2(?) pictured in #20.

    If a suitable replacement Gear is not available, perhaps a short span could be Sistered beside or even below the narrow rim of the gear?

    Not standard, and not pretty but if well done it could be as strong, or perhaps even stronger than the original span. I dare say this movement has already seen a lot worse.

    Another "Kludge MacGyver"? :eek:

    I've seen it before...
     
  27. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    For such a repair to work properly on must have an identical gear (as far as pitch, diameter, and profile) from which to cut the sister section. Yes it can work, yes it isn't pretty. Unless it is your own clock, the owner of the clock should be made aware of what is proposed and the cost of other available options and be a part of the decision.

    MacGyver was mostly fiction. Most of his stuff would never work in the real world or someone would be killed trying, unlike some of the ugly stuff we see here that somehow managed to actually work. Yeah, I do understand the concept of doing the impossible with nothing and a prayer.

    RC
     
  28. Bruce Alexander

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    He could lay out a suitable span on some stock using an unaffected part of the gear. It would be very tedious sawing and filing out the proper profile for the tooth(teeth) needing replacement but it could be done. Just keep the span as short as possible. One tooth might do it. Then there's the matter of the trundles. A lot that needs to be straightened out here. An opportunity to learn a lot and save a clock from the boneyard.
     
  29. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    TaT: Something very bad happened to those trundles. I wonder what?

    RC: I'd rather call it an "unorthodox repair". A bad repair is one that doesn't work. :D
     
  30. klokwiz

    klokwiz Registered User
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    Tim, thank you for a great story and anecdote about necessity and getting the job done. Since the original poster did not elaborate on who or when the repair was made, lets assume it was done by someone without access to current suppliers or training but and was quite inventive. It could have been a kid trying to get grandmas clock working or some junk clock he found, obviously he got it to this point and saved another one from the junk man. Joe.
     
  31. Bruce Alexander

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    Looks like a Mainspring "incident" to me. Damaged tooth, bent trundles....
    as RC cautioned...

    There may be a slightly bent pivot or pivots or who knows what? The entire gear train is suspect. Actually, the entire movement qualifies as a good "take nothing for granted" exercise.
     
  32. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I rather like that verge repair. I suspect that whoever did it was not thrilled with its looks and was surprised that it worked as well as it did.

    My experience with replacement verges has not been so swell. The worst was for a 50-tooth Seth Thomas, and the replacement (Timesavers) turned out to be too thick. The clock had good motion and worked well, but there were deep divots in the pallets, but I decided to be Professional and replace the verge. It was a three-week disaster. Ever since then I've just soldered a piece of escapement spring steel over the pits and left everything else alone.

    M Kinsler
     
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  33. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Excellent idea, Mark. Keep It Simple.:)
     
  34. Bruce Alexander

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    I don't know how thick escapement spring steel is but I have to say that my concern with that approach would be what happens when the "Slip" wears through and there's a void beneath it? Would it start "tipping" the Escape Wheel? :???: What are your thoughts on the matter Mark. I'm sure that you've considered the possibility.
     
  35. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Escapement springs are hard, smooth, and a few thousandths of an inch thick, and presumably they'd wear through. That said, 'slippering' gouged-out pallets seems to be a fairly traditional practice, albeit that silver-solder is generally recommended. I can't think of any other alternative that sparks a whole lot of joy, though I've always wanted to experimentally install a pin pallet verge in place of a traditional recoil verge. I gotta read the escapement book to see what might work.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  36. Bruce Alexander

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    Why not refinish the existing verge until the "ruts" are polished out? Chances are you'll on need remove a small amount of steel and subsequently close the center distance between the verge and escape wheel slightly. Worst case, you might need to bend the strip pallet (annealing first if necessary) slightly to adjust for any change in Entrance Drop first. Dave LaBounty details a method of doing so. He recommends lining up the pallets in a bench vise so that the worn pallet surfaces are very slightly proud of the vise jaws. You then take an emory buff stick to the rutted surfaces until the ruts are polished out without otherwise altering the pallet surface shape or geometry. The vise jaws eliminate that risk for you. If the ruts are too deep and you think you've removed too much metal, I suppose you could slipper them to build them back up just as some folks do with solid verges which can not be safely bent. You'd still have a solid foundation to solder to. The idea of a solder filled void beneath a thin layer of steel sets off a little alarm in the back of my head...perhaps that's my Tinnitus. :chuckling:

    Just a suggestion for your consideration. ;)
     
  37. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I've done this, and in most cases it works quite well. I obtained some fairly large flat diamond files from a secret source (Timesavers, $20) that really work well for this sort of thing, and then I can polish them with the emery buffs. (Well, they're crocus cloth.) Sometimes, however, there's a really deep pit, and it's a bit scary to go after those. Then again, most verges are wide enough that you can scoot the verge along its arbor such that the escape wheel can have new fields to plow, and by the time that has to be re-done simple mortality will have taken care of my responsibilities.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  38. Bruce Alexander

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    Yep, moving the Escape Wheel to a slightly different location will work well if there are the necessary clearances. Easy Peasy Lemon Squeezy. I see nothing wrong with that. Functionally, the Escapement is right back to Factory Specs...minus a little wear and tear on the E.W. Teeth. :thumb: Someone far down the road will have to replace the Verge, but oh well. We all have our Crosses to bear, eh? :chuckling:
     
  39. shutterbug

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    The suitcase workshop on how to make a strip verge is well worth the money. After that you shouldn't have problems fitting a new verge.
     
  40. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    The suitcase workshop. Excellent idea.
    What the hell is a suitcase workshop?
     
  41. Bruce Alexander

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    #41 Bruce Alexander, Aug 28, 2019
    Last edited: Aug 28, 2019
  42. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Ah. Thank you. I was looking through the other classes, too. I'd likely flunk the lot with this tremor of mine, but they're quite interesting, and thanks for the clarification.

    Oh: They mention 'schools of horology' somewhere in that discussion, and I wonder if there are any left.

    M Kinsler
     

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