B. W. Raymond

Paul Sullivan

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When it comes to Elgin BWR's, their 3/4 plate 18s, and 16s are a favorite of mine (no matter what grade) where as unless it's a nickel I finish I no longer look for gilt Elgin's no matter what size.
My oldest BWR is 4539162 15j from 1894.
116 BWR 18s 4539162 (1894) 15j.JPG 116 BWR 18s 4539162 (1895) 15j.JPG
And newest is a 16s 3/4 plate from BWR 590 (#43394893) fm 1945

590 case lighter.JPG Case-tile.jpg

Paul
 

musicguy

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Great 590 BWR not a watch that we often see on the forum, only
8,000 made of this transitional watch.
Elgin 571 (has info in the 590)


Rob
 
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Paul Sullivan

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18s Grade 240, model 8, BWR ser. no. 14005907 (1910) 19j Adj. 5 positions. The 18s 3/4 plate is in it's original "Veritas" model case.
Placing the balance inside instead of on the outside like most 18s watches reduced the movement thickness a bit and while 240's fit any standard 18s case, case manufacturers produced a thinner case specifically for Elgin's 18s 3/4 plate model 8s. The last picture shows 2 model 8 "Veritas" case backs. The first is an Amer. Watch Case Co. (Toronto) THIN MODEL (Fortune grade 20 yr.) and the second a Keystone W.C. Co. "VERITAS MODEL E.N.W.Co." (J. Boss grade 20 yr.).



Mvmnt. BWR 14005907 2.jpg Dial BWR 14005907 a.jpg collage 2.jpg
Fortune"Thin" and J.Boss "Veritas"
IMG_0895-side.JPG
 

Rick Hufnagel

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I'm blaming Doug for this one! His excitement about these and his blog turned my interest to a series of watches that are 60- 70ish years newer than anything I typically look for.

I wanted the 3056 or 3057 case. Had to have the marginal minutes dial with this signature. Waited for a nice looking example and pulled the trigger on the 3056. So here is my new 571.

Wonderful dial and hands!

IMG_20200528_160905526_HDR.jpg

Movement is pristine!
IMG_20200528_160942372_HDR.jpg

Lovely case. Bow is original and tight. Doug pointed out the nice diamond pattern around the bezel and back. Little wear on the back. No brassing.
IMG_20200528_161211739.jpg IMG_20200528_161031272_HDR.jpg

Quite a far cry from the BW Raymond's I'm used to collecting. For reference here is an original from the first few years of the company. Made over 80 years apart!

28a2cc59b1d6ce8af9a29f3931b78db2.jpg
b09a12b51e7cb3cb9212a8a1e6cef633.jpg

I hope this thread makes it into the Elgin sticky. It was created around 5 months after I joined the NAWCC and has been a favorite. Many awesome examples here! Thanks for checking it out and have a great day!
 
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musicguy

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Excellent Rick!
(love the second hand on these)


Rob
 
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GeneJockey

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I'm blaming Doug for this one! His excitement about these and his blog turned my interest to a series of watches that are 60- 70ish years newer than anything I typically look for.
I plead guilty and throw myself on the mercy of the Court. ;)

Nice one, Rick! Well chosen! The 3056 case is a real looker, isn't i?

Mind you, that's just the start. Next you need one from before Elgin engraved "BW Raymond" on the barrel bridge..... Then one from the last block of serials after I-366,000. And one in the 3057 case. And there's really no 571 as iconic as the 3055 case and the 'boxcar' dial.............
 
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musicguy

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Next you need one from before Elgin engraved "BW Raymond" on the barrel bridge.....
The more he gets the more BWR's he can post in this great thread.;)
Sounds like a good thing to me.


Rob
 

Rick Hufnagel

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The 3056 case is a real looker, isn't i?
Yes it is! Very stylish and it runs like a new watch. I've spent quite a while looking at these. Originally the stainless 3057 caught my eye when you showed one.. but I'm really happy with this one. I even made one of Rob's leather bow protectors last night for fear of scratching the darn thing. I'm borderline scared to carry it. It will have to be a weekend watch for sure. It's the youngest American pocket watch in my collection by a landslide.

one in the 3057 case
Not sure about all of the variations... But the 3057 will definitely be on the list in the future. It doesn't seem nearly as common, however.

I think the 3055 case will give an opportunity to expand beyond the 571... Someday, lol.

There is also the BWR model cases like Joe's in the post above, which catch my eye as well! Too many nice pieces around here.

Excellent Rick!
Thanks! I do enjoy the second hand as well. I think the Mrs even likes it because it doesn't look like all the other watches I have... Haha... Big silver cases with Roman dials. If I have to complain... The plastic crystal is bugging me.. so that's going to go very quickly. Still have to figure out which style is appropriate.

The more he gets the more BWR's he can post in this great thread
Never know what may turn up next! I'll head back to the 1870-80s for now, ha!
 
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GeneJockey

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On the 571 - REMEMBER THE DETENT LEVER!!! Don't try to take it out of the case without removing the stem and crown. Nobody's making more of those levers.

I have 3 BWRs in 3055 style cases (that style didn't become the 3055 till the 571 was introduced) - my first 571, from the 'middle years' of production; a 590 with a Canadian dial, and a 478 with the 'gold flashed' movement from the war years.

BTW, speaking of 571s, a few months ago, there was one from the last 1000 serials on Ebay a few months ago, with box and papers. The factory 'inspection tag' with that serial number was dated '12/65', so Elgin was still putting these together as late as the end of 1965, after Building 1 in Elgin was demolished! (I'd have bought it, but I already have one of the last 100). We all think of the BWR wristies as the last BW Raymonds, but it turns out that the 571 lasted longer!
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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REMEMBER THE DETENT LEVER

I have read multiple threads of detent lever woes, and shall heed your warning!

I microscoped this thing last night and it looks like it's been serviced professionally quite recently. It's running RR time, good amplitude... I'm not touching this one till its needed! It's spotless.
We all think of the BWR wristies as the last BW Raymonds, but it turns out that the 571 lasted longer
Unbelievable! It's amazing to me how the later years are just as fuzzy as the beginning! Just goes to show how all these serial number dates are a crap shoot!
 

Paul Sullivan

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478 (model 15) 16s BWR no. 41726202 21j (1943)

A great running watch I've had since since 2012 that continues to keep excellent time.
I like 1he 12 kt. Star SB&B watch case with "ELGIN" R.R. stamped below the crown
.
BWR 417260202 mvmnt..jpg BWR 417260202 Dial 1.jpg

The dial has the "Elgin above Star" trademark copyrighted in 1935 which referenced their being the only watch company with it's own observatory to track sidereal time through star observations.
Elgin then started to use the advertising slogan "Elgin Takes The Time From The Stars And Puts It In Your Pocket".

BWR 478 21j 41726202  (1).jpg collage.jpg
 

GeneJockey

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Seeing Rick's "new" 571 inspired me to show my complete collection of BW Raymonds.

IMG_2967.JPG

Top row, L-R: BW Raymond 129194; Grade 69 865305
Second Row, L-R: Grade 478 30812242; Grade 540 39990956; Grade 478 41725202; Grade 590 43148158
Third Row, L-R - all Grade 571s: U620397; J372997; N45155; S548870; I384924; I387972
Bottom Row: Grade 730A BW Raymond Railroad Wrist Chronometer

Here are the two keywinds....

IMG_2970.JPG

BW Raymond on the Left, Grade 69 on the Right. Sharp eyes will note several differences between the two grades.

Now, the 16s ones from before the 571 was introduced...

IMG_2975.JPG

Top Row: Grade 478; Grade 540. The 540 "Timemaster" is from Elgin's last run of 23J 16s movements (not counting the later Buren crap)

Bottom Row: Grade 478 from 1943, when nickel was scarce and they gilded movements instead; Grade 590, the first Elgin Railroad watch with monometallic balance.

Now, the 6 571s,

IMG_2979.JPG

The upper Left is from the second run of 571s, in 1946. Note that there is NO 'BW Raymond' engraved on the barrel bridge! Is it really a BWR?

The lower left is from the very last run of 571s, probably 1965, the very last run of Elgin BW Raymond pocket watches. Since it was probably built AFTER the BWR wrist watches, this may be one of the last 30 BW Raymonds ever made.

Here are all the 571 case models, with 5 of the dial variants.

IMG_2983.JPG

Top Row, L-R: Keystone 3055 and 3056; Star 3057
Bottom Row, L-R: Star 3058 and 3059. The dials on these are the melamine copies of the enamel versions. If I recall correctly, the Melamine dials are limited to runs from K and I prefix series.

And lastly, the Grade 730A that runs the BW Raymond Railroad Wrist Chronometer. No serial numbers anymore, but the movement has hack setting and a soft iron dial to protect from the magnetic fields around the generators in diesel locomotives.

IMG_2985.JPG
 

Downing

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1893 Grade 77 18s 15J.

Had it serviced right after I bought it. Winds like a warm knife through soft butter and keeps near perfect time. Not bad for a 127 year old watch.

And I really like that the dial is signed "Elgin Natl, Watch Co." I don't know why but it just tickles me that they didn't spell out "National."

The train on the back is easier to see in the photo than it is in real life.

S-L1600.jpeg S-L1600-2.jpeg S-L1600-3.jpeg S-L1600-1.jpeg S-L1600-4.jpeg
 
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Paul Sullivan

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Elgin Grade 240 model 8, 18s B.W. Raymond, #14005907 19j made in 1910.

Elgin's first 3/4 plate 18s was the grade 214 model 8 Veritas in 1899. Like a 16s 3/4 plate the balance sits in the movement instead of on top as in a regular 18s full plate movement. So the movement was somewhat thinner than a normal 18s full plate watch. This prompted some of the case makers to produce "Veritas" model (like this Keystone J. Boss) or "Thin Model" (I have an example of one made by the American Watch Case Co., Montreal) for these thinner Elgins. The difference in thickness from a normal 18s case is small and not very noticeable. The case appears original to the movement and the movement itself is in lovely condition, runs well and keeps good time.

Mvmnt. BWR 14005907 2.jpg Dial BWR 14005907 a.jpg


Collage 2 (2).jpg
 

yellow_sub

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Here's the 3 I have so far. Firstly #30854. It's not currently running, but I do plan to have it worked on eventually.
DSC00155.JPG
DSC00148.JPG
This is #21156091. I just got this one today. There was nothing special about the case it came with and I absolutely love the dial so I converted it to a wristwatch.
DSC00802.JPG
DSC00807.JPG
And lastly #4855. Runs great, only about 2 minutes off each day. I don't know it's service history so maybe it just needs a cleaning and it'll be even better. The case had a couple other screw marks, so I could tell it wasn't original and it will be swapped out in the next couple days to another massive case that I've had for a bit now.
DSC00777.JPG
DSC00781.JPG
I'd appreciate it if anyone could share any specific info on the 2 early ones I have. Also, can anyone point me toward a list of all the B.W. Raymond models/grades? Thank you ahead of time. DSC00805.JPG
 

musicguy

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Joe Blossic

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Circa 1906 Grade 341 B. W. Raymond, SN# 12283606, M8, 16S, 17J Hunter
Fred H. provided the following: "A scarce watch with a total production of only 2000 made, the Grade 341 was Elgin’s only version of the B.W. Raymond to have been made in a hunting case 3-finger bridge movement design."
Elgin 341 Movement 2.jpg Elgin 341 Movement 1.jpg Elgin 341 Close Up.jpg Elgin 341 Dial.jpg Elgin 341 Case Front.jpg Elgin 341 Case Back.jpg
 

Paul Sullivan

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yellow_sub

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Circa 1906 Grade 341 B. W. Raymond, SN# 12283606, M8, 16S, 17J Hunter
Fred H. provided the following: "A scarce watch with a total production of only 2000 made, the Grade 341 was Elgin’s only version of the B.W. Raymond to have been made in a hunting case 3-finger bridge movement design."
WOW, that watch is amazing! Even down to the detail of the bow on the case. Someone spent a pretty penny on that one when new. (you probably did too, as well, when you purchased it lol) Thanks for posting it.
 
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Paul Sullivan

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No doubt. I was born in the 1950s & never saw a steam locomotive in action,
While I never SAW an operating steam locomotive, as a six or seven year old back around 1956-58 I do remember HEARING one back then.
I was visiting our cousin's house and we were playing in the back yard in the late afternoon when we heard the locomotives whistle. The
rail line (out of Boston ) ran behind the neighborhood in a shallow cut. When we heard the engine's chuffing we ran through a short distance
of woods to see it pass. I remember seeing the smoke rising from the cut through the woods. But by the time we got to the embankment
the last of the cars were disappearing around a bend and a bit of smoke hung in the air above the rail.

Here is the newest BWR I have a model 20 made in 1947.

IMG_7929.JPG IMG_7922.JPG IMG_7914-tile.jpg

Paul
 

Brad Maisto

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This 18S, 19-jewel BWR grade 240 was a watch I obtained back in 1968 from an auction in Greencastle, IN. The Elgin grade 240 was probably one of my first true railroad grade watch acquisitions as they are quite common. I left a bid of 25 bucks at this sale not thinking It would sell this inexpensive! I was pleasantly surprised when I got the call that I was the high bidder. I know it is not in the appropriate time-period style case, but my feeling is that this “gently” used RR pocketwatch was recased by possibly its original owner? In my humble opinion, this “Veritas”-style 18S railroad grade watch is a quintessential piece of American watch making history.
The serial # is 11,023,840 dating this watch to roughly 1994. The Illinois RGP case, #7819112 is in pretty decent shape with just a slight amount of brass showing on the “high-places”!
32B57A31-2F86-4333-ACDB-838681061C01.jpeg 70E275A3-8F35-4DCC-8F1A-D2DB6AC9409A.jpeg

P. S. I think the dial hairlines are part of the intrigue of this watch! I like to call them “age-wrinkles”!
Brad Maisto, KY Floral #44 Secretary
 

Brad Maisto

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please note, this watch dates to 1904! My “auto-number-checker” was not working in the original post!
This 18S, 19-jewel BWR grade 240 was a watch I obtained back in 1968 from an auction in Greencastle, IN. The Elgin grade 240 was probably one of my first true railroad grade watch acquisitions as they are quite common. I left a bid of 25 bucks at this sale not thinking It would sell this inexpensive! I was pleasantly surprised when I got the call that I was the high bidder. I know it is not in the appropriate time-period style case, but my feeling is that this “gently” used RR pocketwatch was recased by possibly its original owner? In my humble opinion, this “Veritas”-style 18S railroad grade watch is a quintessential piece of American watch making history.
The serial # is 11,023,840 dating this watch to roughly 1904. The Illinois RGP case, #7819112 is in pretty decent shape with just a slight amount of brass showing on the “high-places”!
View attachment 603053 View attachment 603055

P. S. I think the dial hairlines are part of the intrigue of this watch! I like to call them “age-wrinkles”!
Brad Maisto, KY Floral #44 Secretary
 

musicguy

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Maybe it's just me, but I really like the shape of the plates in Elgins 18s 3/4 plate watches.
Me too they are a nice looking movement.


Rob
 
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musicguy

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Thanks Robert!

Do you mind if I move your post to the BW Raymond thread?


Rob
 

musicguy

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Nice Stan


Rob
 
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Rodney Leon

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New to me it was so nice I had to buy it. (All original.)
Elgin. B.W.Raymond 571, Serial no. I368883, Grade 571, Model 20, year 1954, 16s, 21 jewel, Adjusted 9 positions, Ball regulator, Railroad. Lever set. Star watch case co. 10K gold-filled cased by Elgin. No. T549604. (3058 case style) Single sunk star arrows in dial. I think this is towards the last run of these maybe someone knows.



DSC_1383.jpg DSC_1384.jpg DSC_1388.jpg
 

Ethan Lipsig

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I've only owned one B.W. Raymond, one of the first 750 watches Elgin made, serial number 820. It was a key-wound Grade 69 movement cased in a 5-ounce Dueber coin silver hunter case. I sold it in 2015 because my collection focuses on elegant high-grade watches cased in solid gold or platinum. This Elgin, while interesting, was beyond the pale of what I collect. I sold the watch for $850.

IMG_2126.JPG IMG_2127.JPG IMG_3401.JPG IMG_2133.JPG IMG_2131.JPG
IMG_2135.JPG IMG_2209.JPG
 

Paul Sullivan

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Yes, I have a few of the 16s Elgins with Swiss movements from from the 50's. I was wondering more about the last year an Elgin pocket watch with all made in the U.S. parts left the factory.
 

thesnark17

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Last I checked, the Elgin 571 is an American movement with all parts proudly made in the USA. If that is not true, I definitely want to hear more.
 
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Paul Sullivan

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Karl,

Very nice 590. I have one from 1945 I got about seven years ago that still keeps well within the time requirements back then for RR use.
 

Rodney Leon

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First watch is Elgin 1943, Gold flashed 478 Railroad.
Serial number 41444700,
Second watch photos are: Elgin 1942. 581 WW2. 21 jewel 22 jewel. Master navigation watch. Serial No..40470765, Model15 made 1942. 16s, B.W.Raymond. marked 21 jewel has 22 jewels. Marked U.S. Army A.C. (Light stamped by adjusted) Sweepsecond hand, 0-23 hour GTC black dial AN5740. Gold flash movement. Adjusted 5 positions. Pendant set. Hacking. Illinois watch case co. cased and Timed by Elgin Nickel 0615062. Hard to see but the back reads:

TYPE A-13
SPEC. NO. AN-GG-W-108
SER. NO. AC42-51-94
MFRS. PART NO. 1786
ORD. NO. W535AC-28071
ELGIN



DSC_1434.JPG DSC_1461.jpg DSC_1476.jpg DSC_1478.jpg DSC_1479.jpg inside .jpg
 

Brad Maisto

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Not many 12S BW Raymond’s reported, but here is my #17,190,814, 19-jewel watch that I have had for roughly 25 years. And since they “only” made 10K of this grade, I thought it worth showing. The 8-sided IL GF watch case has significant brassing, and the cheap plastic crystal do take away from the attractiveness of this watch that was made around 1913. And it even seems to be keeping time with my iWatch. Brad Maisto, KY Floral #44 Secretary

CB2C6EDD-468D-4BA3-A811-8622BE778616.jpeg 1FBD8691-5A02-4F47-9FE7-A26D418906FB.jpeg
 

musicguy

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Nice one Brad!
I have 3 of them and like them all. I just saw
one recently on eBay that was a spectacular example, triple signed
with purple hands in great shape with mint original dial.
Hopefully the person on this forum who has it will
post it here (it was in my hands for about 24 hours).


Rob
 
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musicguy

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I noticed I hadn't posted this one in this thread yet (I do see that Joe posted one above)
1907 16s 17j grade 341
1500 made
20210619_154650.jpg




Rob
 
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