B. W. Raymond

musicguy

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I found this movement on ebay and married it in a mint case that I
found in a junk store(antique store). (The case is probably 10 years newer I think)
My son just stole(not really) my montgomery dial Elgin BWR 472 in the same case(which is it's proper case)



It's a 1913 Grade 372 19j BWR(the movement has been serviced since I took the photo )

IMG_9543.jpg IMG_4552 (2).jpg

elgin case1.jpg


Rob
 

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musicguy, it appears to have a gold hairspring, can you confirm? I like the jeweled barrel variant of the 3 Elgin made the best. You are very close on the 10 years.
 
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musicguy

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it appears to have a gold hairspring, can you confirm?
Yes it does have a gold plated hairspring. I was going to mention it
but forgot thanks for pointing it out. I also like the jeweled barrel variant
very much.


Rob
 

musicguy

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Here are two grade 77 BWR:

1891 18 size grade 77 BWR


1.jpeg 2.jpeg

PL(private label) 1889 18 size grade 77

PL 1888 B W Raymond 5.jpg PL 1888 B W Raymond 2.jpg


Rob
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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Here's the newest addition to my bw raymond family. It's a grade 70, early stemwinder. Key wind, stem wind, slide lever set. It dates to 1874.

The one falls into the same run as my other, and after a cleaning and some balance hole jewels, it's running great.

a proper dial was donated from a third parts movement of this run. This had a flat dial on it when I received it. No doubt picked off for a gr 69 or something of the sort. They didn't even bother to put the dial pins back in.

Anyways I just finished it today, and I'm proud to have it in the early Elgin stemwind collection.

Have a great day!

IMG_20190314_235900445.jpg IMG_20190314_235734702.jpg
 

GeneJockey

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Here's the newest addition to my bw raymond family. It's a grade 70, early stemwinder. Key wind, stem wind, slide lever set. It dates to 1874.

The one falls into the same run as my other, and after a cleaning and some balance hole jewels, it's running great.

a proper dial was donated from a third parts movement of this run. This had a flat dial on it when I received it. No doubt picked off for a gr 69 or something of the sort. They didn't even bother to put the dial pins back in.

Anyways I just finished it today, and I'm proud to have it in the early Elgin stemwind collection.

Have a great day!
Remember my earlier post about the original keywind BWR and the Grade 69? Well, according to the early materials catalog serial number list, yours is a stemwind BWR, not a Grade 70. The Grade 70 differs from the BWR in the same ways the Grade 69 and keywind BWR differ.

Funny thing is, Elgin made the keywind BWR, the Grade 69, the stemwind BWR and the Grade 70 all at the same time. That is, they were still making the keywind BWRs after the introduced the Grade 69 and the stemwind BWR, and maybe even the Model 70. They didn't just stop making one and stars making the new one.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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That makes sense, since the grading system they adopted kinda lumped a ton of things together. All the serial lists call it a grade 70, so that's what I've been calling it. Your right though, it the same similarities and differences as your keywind example. I know there are differences between the earlier and later ones, but I never thought about them really being two different watches. At the time they only had the names and no grade #, so when my above one was produced, it would only make sense to call it stemwind bwr. Interesting! I think stemwind bwr sounds better anyways!

Here's the later grade 70 for comparison. Do take note though, this 70 is later and had an overcoil hairspring. I'm still slowly working on when that was added to these, but the early stemwinder is flat. The rounded barrel bridge, the serial # placement, safety/patent pinion. Just to name a few

IMG_20190201_203406052.jpg
 

GeneJockey

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Here's an example of what genejocky is taking about. This one looks much more like a grade 70 kw/SW/ls. It has a pull out lever, not a slide lever for setting

https://pocketwatchdatabase.com/profile/casillas/collection/view/5560
Note that Casillas Grade 70 has a flat hairspring, and still has a keyguard and can be keywound. Later Grade 70s dropped that, and went to overcoil hairsprings.

Also, as best I can tell from what I've seen all GENUINE BWR grade keywind and stemwind movements have straight-cut barrel bridges and serials on the upper plate, whereas the Grade 69 and grade 70 all have the wavy barrel bridge with serial stamped on it.
 

Rick Hufnagel

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I would love to get a look at one in this range.

246501-246600

They are the first stem wind bwrs.


Who knows if any of these 100 even exist anymore..... The first Taylor's and Culver's are stemwind but still keyset, maybe these first bwrs are the same.
 

diveboy

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Before it was released as the B. W. Raymond, it was just known as the "Raymond" and work was started on the model in November 1866. it was modified during the first run from a backset model to front set as well which explains why the first run is different from the the other runs.
 

GeneJockey

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I just picked up what may be one of the very last BW Raymond pocket watches ever made. If Wayne Schlitt, and Ed Ueberall and Kent Singer are right about the last block of 571 serial numbers extending to I-388000, this one, I-387972, was among the last 30.

IMG_1343.jpg IMG_1356.jpg

Does anyone have, or know of, any 571 with a higher serial number?
 

Stephen Matusek

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I have an old pocket watch demagnetizer. I'll try that. Thanks. I use it for demagnetizing tools also. BTW, mine is from 1934. I have around a 20 page testimony in 1944 from the Brotherhood of Locomotive Engineers & a man who was part of it was using a pocket watch using the winding feature.

Steve
 
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musicguy

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Here is another 12 size 19j Elgin BWR from 1913. I don't know why but
I have 3 of these 193's(I guess I like them) but only two are BWR the other is a private label.

Adjusted to 5 positions

1.jpeg 2.jpeg



Rob
 

Stephen Matusek

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Here are some more of mine. BTW my 494 in post 64 is now running perfect after demagnetizing & didn't lose a second until it was almost completely unwound. The serial #34900181 is for that 16s 494 23j. I have a couple others that don't seem to respond to fast & slow adjustment even after demagnetizing. Perhaps I'll try demagnetizing again. If that doesn't fix the problem, they will need servicing.
Now for my other BWR's. First off is my keywind, serial #42681 is an 18s grade 69, 15j & runs but slow. You can see it is set all the way in fast position but still slow. No telling when it was last serviced. Of course it needs servicing & also a new spring in the lid. Next up is my 18s, grade 70, 15j, serial #2123226. It's a runner but has a chip in the dial at the 12 o'clock position so I need to replace it. The next 2 are the same grade, different years. They are both 16s, 21j grade 478. The first one serial #25837451 from 1923 & is quite ornate which I like very much but it needs a balance staff and/or jewels. The balance swings good so hopefully it just needs jewels but should it need a staff, no problem. Last is my serial #33934091 from 1934 & runs pretty good.
Lots of very nice B.W. Raymond's here.

Steve

fullsizeoutput_927.jpeg fullsizeoutput_924.jpeg IMG_2990.JPG IMG_2991.JPG fullsizeoutput_92f.jpeg fullsizeoutput_92d.jpeg fullsizeoutput_92c.jpeg fullsizeoutput_930.jpeg
 
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Kent

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I don't think that one of these has been posted in this thread yet (and I'm too lazy to go back and check, so I apologize if I've missed it).

Anyway, here's a grade No.472 with its Invar Balance. You can tell, even if the dial has been swapped with an incorrect replacement, by the extra length of the balance rim beyond the arm, prior to the cut. A conventional bimetallic compensated balance only has short stubs of rim beyond the arm. The Invar balance's rim stubs are long enough to have a balance screw.

And, of course, its in its proper "Elgin R.R." case.

KLS_16S_21J_BWR_472_29481328.jpg 1924_Aug_NewBWR.jpg
 

musicguy

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RE 472,
I did buy a beautiful Elgin 472 with mint montgomery dial(with the invar marking in seconds area) in the correct
Elgin case..............but my son decided it was his.
s-l1600c (1) - Copy.jpg


EDIT(3/30/2020): I decided to find one for myself and recently purchased it.


Rob
 
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179

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I get the impression from the ad other watches were fitted with the Invar Balance.
 

Kent

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I get the impression from the ad other watches were fitted with the Invar Balance.
I think that there were other Elgin watches fitted with Invar Balances (perhaps an Elgin expert will comment on this), just not other railroad watches.
 

Kent

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Just so you don't think that I'm fixated on 16-size watches, here's an example of the most common grade of the 18-size, 3/4-plate Veritas model movements. No kidding after introducing the 8th model (in 1901) as the "1901 Model", Elgin switched to referring to it as the "Veritas model" - regardless of the grade (see 1909 ad, below).

With a total production of 68,000, the quantity of BWR grade No. 240 movements built was greater than all other 8th model railroad grade movements built by Elgin, combined (61,900). And there were only a little over 16,000 non-railroad grade 8th model movements made.

KLS_18S_19J_BWR_240_13670266.jpg 1901_Mar-6_Veritas_Introduction.jpg 1909_Oct_The_New_Elgin.jpg
 

Kent

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Only 4,400 of the 18-size, 21-jewel BWR grade No. 390 movements were built, not even one tenth of the 68,000 19-jewel BWR grade No.240 movements that were cranked out by Elgin. Nevertheless, it is more than enough for the watch to be considered common.

KLS_18S_21J_BWR_390_15939171.jpg
 

GeneJockey

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I think that there were other Elgin watches fitted with Invar Balances (perhaps an Elgin expert will comment on this), just not other railroad watches.
The 540 had an Invar balance and Elginium Y hairspring. The balance is cut, but not at the arm. More like 2/3 of the way around. The hairspring is white, like the late 478s, but the have a conventional balance cut next to the arm.
 
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Kent

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The 540 had an Invar balance and Elginium Y hairspring. The balance is cut, but not at the arm. More like 2/3 of the way around. The hairspring is white, like the late 478s, but the have a conventional balance cut next to the arm.
Thanks!
 

musicguy

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Here are two circa 1871(ish) 18 size National Watch Co BW Raymonds that I have posted already(a few times)
but not in this BW Raymond thread

0000.01.jpg
bwr1871.jpeg 599515074.jpg


EDIT: I switched out the first movement photo for a newer clearer one.



Rob
 
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Rick Hufnagel

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Thanks for bringing this one back up!

Here's a few to add just because

This is the one im keeping for the series 2 collection. Slide lever, beautiful Gilt, perfect dial and hands. Terrible picture.
4e6f9c8647db088976dcd41fa29d2e8b.jpg f65d2dbf5919518a166ab51109af39c2.jpg

Here is the series 2 Bwr for carrying around.
4558ddfb198fa80f1ec839b0da1f2ca0.jpg
Lastly... Who can resist the great Damaskeen of the grade 27!
ab589261de0c45ed6b7e743391e686c3.jpg
 

musicguy

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musicguy

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I was looking at the 1875 Elgin Almanac(posted on the NAWCC Message Board by John F. January 2008)
and it talks about "the two grades of the B. W. Raymond movement" I noticed that I have both of these
grades and my serial numbers are fairly close to the ones in the 1875 Elgin Almanac. So I had a little time tonight
and I put them together in one image. The B. W. Raymond on the right has the C. S. Moseley & G. Hunter Watch Regulator
Patented Nov. 17, 1874 (No. 157,021) The one on the left has a plain regulator(I believe a Bosley Variant).
Both match up with the 1875 Almanac image above it. The one with the Moseley Regulator has a single
sunk dial and the one without has a double sunk dial. I'm not sure that we classify
these as different grades now, but obviously Elgin did in 1875. There are some differences
between the movements(jewel settings, and micro regulator, font, and dials).
Both are National Watch Co. Dials.
I also used an old photo I did replace the case screw with a blue domed one.
I also believe the higher serial number was finished before the lower one(but that is just a guess).

(Click on to enlarge)
1875 Elgin Almanac with photos of watchs.png



The text in the 1875 Elgin Almanac says:
Of the movements represented we
desire to call especial attention to the
two grades of the "B. W. Raymond"
Movement, also to the "H.Z. Culver"
and "H.H. Taylor adjusted. Particular
attention is given in the manufacture
of these movements to their adjustment
and regulation and it is believed that they are,
without exception, the best full plate
watches made in this country.
They have been subjected to every known test
in their use upon land and water, upon
the rail and in the shops, and as a result
they rank to-day, with dealers who have
sold them, and the purchasers
who are wearing them, as among the finest
time -keepers in the market.
(obviously written by Elgin themselves;))

Rob
 

Rick Hufnagel

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This is a great range for B.W. Raymond study. In this run and a few previous, there are adjusted marked and not, single and double sunk dials, PRR dials, patent and plain regulators... Very interesting. I've liked your dial theory since you first mentioned it! Would be fun to research that.
 

musicguy

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okiejohn

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Just picked up another BWR...this one's a Grade 77. 18s, 15j, SN 4280946, It has the "Fleur-de-Lis" hands, which I always find attractive. The Providence Watch Case Co. gold filled case has seen better days, but the movement and dial are in really nice shape.

b15996f7a0883389f011525354a6013e.jpg d1a63374cda2770c70033fdcb13efd30.jpg d6723d2efc4a88460eec1992f9532cd0.jpg
 

Jskirk

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I like looking through this thread and thought I would add one that I picked up a week ago for almost nothing. The seller had 2 pictures, both out of focus of the dial and the back, was asking 25.00. Took a chance, and this is it.
1890 grade 116 model 5. This watch sparkles, in a nice Dueber anchor and serpent hinged case.
It needs cleaned though.

20200329_000041.jpg 20200328_235901.jpg 20200328_235851.jpg 20200328_235826.jpg
 

musicguy

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Here is one of my favorite(more modern) B. W. Raymond's. I needed two parts for it that
came in the mail today. It's running very well but it now needs a clean and oil.
I may sound like a watch nerd but the invar marking on the Montgomery dial
in it's original factory case really makes me happy, not to mention that it's a BWR.

It is a grade 472 circa 1926. They made 21,000 of these and most of the ones you see
regularly do not have the Montgomery dial with invar marking. The dial is
absolutely mint. The 6 is a little ugly I guess the dial artist must have been having a
bad day. It is in a very clean original factory B W Raymond Railroad case with
"Cased and timed by the Elgin National Watch Co Patented" and
B. W. Raymond Model engraved in the back. The BWR grade 472 was the first 16 size
Elgin to have the J-shaped/swan-neck regulator. The balance is cut away from the spoke
and the invar balance marking on the dial make this watch different than the Elgin 478.

Thanks for reading.

20200330_143231.jpg 20200330_143006.jpg

20200330_142630.jpg 20200330_143454.jpg

20200330_143846.jpg 20200330_144355.jpg



Rob
 

Joe Blossic

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Circa 1933 B.W. Raymond s/n 33743970, Grade 478,16S, 21J Wind Indicator. This one had a little harder life and has a metal dial with dots because all three dial foot screw sockets were completely stripped. Mechanically a very good timekeeper.
WI dial.jpg WI mvmt.jpg
 

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