Auguste Saltzmann movement production dates

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Clint Geller, May 12, 2018.

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  1. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    Does anyone have access to a database, or to extant company records, which can tell me in about what year a particular Saltzmann movement was made? I'm looking at serial numbers around 28,000 to 29,000. They are Lepine Calibre Type IV variants with in-line lever escapements and nickel plates. Thanks very much in advance.
     
  2. hans

    hans Registered User
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  3. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    Thanks, I saw that. I suppose the reference to "Herstellung: 1860er" means something like "finished approximately 1860?" The problem is that movements with vastly different serial numbers are attributed to the same year, which does not inspire confidence.
     
  4. MartyR

    MartyR Registered User
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    And quite rightly ;) The problem is, Clint, that you need to know who is doing the attribution, and on what basis!

    There are probably less then a dozen Swiss watchmakers who have records over 100 years old, and not many more than that whom collectors have found sufficiently significant to develop databases. i doubt that Salzmann would fall into either category. I cannot find any reference to Salzmann (or Saltzmann) at Mikrolisk.de, which is a worldwide database of trademarks and often useful for dating a Swiss watch showing a trademark.

    Ironically, one source for dating Swiss watches is where they have been silver or gold cased in Britain, or have been imported; in those cases the British hallmarks are date-definitive.
     
  5. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    "Herstellung" time of production is correct clint. Allan.
     
  6. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    regards enrico

    S&V.jpg
     
  7. MartyR

    MartyR Registered User
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    How did you find that, Enrico? I searched on "saltzmann" and got zero results!
     
  8. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    in 1881 Auguste Saltzmann was together with Albert Vuille of Le Locle so I looked for S & V
    regards enrico
     
  9. MartyR

    MartyR Registered User
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    Not fair, Enrico - that favours people with knowledge! :D
     
  10. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    Thanks, gentlemen. The Lepine Calibre Type IV variant nickel movements in question have no such trademarks and are stamped "A. Saltzman" on the pillar plates between the third and fourth wheel bridges. I am trying to establish whether they were made prior to May, 1865, because I wish to know whether there were some Swiss makers putting out nickel movements either before or during the Civil War. The first American nickel movements were circa 1868. The trademarks shown all seem to be much later, but I found one reference which claimed that the firm of Saltzman became "Saltzman & Jacot" in 1857. If true, that would suggest these watches were pre-1857. Inasmuch as they are Lepine Type IV's, that would make sense.
     
  11. Tom McIntyre

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    Saltzman and Jacot were in business together in the 1850's while Jacot was working in New York.The Jacot Star Duplexes are marked S.J&Co.
    upload_2018-5-25_15-7-2.png

    This independent Dead Seconds watch is signed Jacot and the mechanism was patented in 1858. It could just as easily have been signed by Saltzman. I have other examples from Jacot & Saltzman that are signed Saltzman in nickel finish from the same 1860's period. Their Trans-Atlantic partnership started no later than 1852 when the star duplex was patented. Jacot arrived in America in the late 1830's and became an American citizen. He eventually returned to Switzerland in about 1858.
    upload_2018-5-25_15-8-53.png
     
  12. jess tauber

    jess tauber Registered User

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    I've seen elaborate Jacot designs but the one in the pic above is simply gorgeous.
     
  13. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    Tom, I interpret your post to suggest that the absence of a reference to Jacot on a watch engraved "A. Saltzman" does not tell us much about when it was made. Correct? Here is the type of movement I am talking about. Do you have any guesses or insights as to whether movements like this may predate 1865?

    upload_2018-5-25_16-39-8.png
     
  14. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I would be inclined to believe that they do. Jacot and Saltzman were also very early to introduce stem winding on their watches but could, of course, have made keywind watches later also. Are there any marks under the dial? I don't have any complete Saltzman watches but I may have some movements that would give a clue. I will see what I can find, but it will take me a little while.
     
  15. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    #15 Clint Geller, May 25, 2018
    Last edited: May 25, 2018
    Tom,

    I have only pictures, no movements. The importance of the issue to me is that in my upcoming book, which will be published by the NAWCC next Spring, I am providing a guide to collectors and historians for ascertaining whether a watch may have been available for service during the Civil War, or more specifically in the case of watches with putative provenances, whether the characteristics of the watch would be consistent with the authenticity of the provenance. Therefore, if Swiss movements existed with nickel plates prior to 1865, however rare they might be, I would not wish to make a blanket statement that all pre-1865 Swiss movements had gilded plates.

    The closest thing approximating "proof" I currently have that Swiss watches with nickel plates existed prior to 1865 are these 2 pictures of a silver watch case bearing an 1861 presentation and a cuvette advertising "Nikel [sic] Plates," but there is no movement picture and the last owner of the watch known to me does not have one. The dial is unsigned, and perhaps single sunk with Roman numerals. I'd like to show an actual picture of an example of a pre-1865 Swiss movement with nickel plates, to settle the matter. I'm thinking the picture I showed previously probably qualifies, but I'd like to be certain. That movement is a Lepine Caliber Type IV variant, which is, at very least, highly consistent with a production date before 1865.

    94fcfb360ba1ecb2721dac8d2314e9b4--killed-in-action-pocket-watches.jpg fd5bfbf850e11cdc4bafa3a7a3b30540--mercy-street-killed-in-action.jpg
     

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