At the corner of English and Swiss

mosesgodfrey

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Saw this orphan and couldn’t resist! It’s an English lever (thanks Bernhard!)—my first—but one of Swiss make, imo. The setting works got me. Hopefully, a future conversion, if I can expose them through the dial.

For now, any thoughts on date or maker? May have one lead, but don’t want to lead the witness

Also, thoughts on making/sourcing a dial?
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gmorse

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Hi Moses,

If you're thinking of exposing the keyless work, I think you should consider getting that transmission wheel remade, it's in a dreadful state. I wonder if it's been turned over at some point?

I agree that it has the look of Swiss work.

Regards,

Graham
 
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jboger

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The regulator seems to be missing. Some people have made high resolution photocopies of dials. And i agree that it's Swiss. That red cap jewel strikes me as very much Swiss. I have seen similar domed red jewels used on Swiss music boxes. These have a governor that is used to regulate how fast a cylinder rotates. Often that jewel is not fixed permanently in a bezel. Rather, the bezel simply holds the jewel in place: remove the bezel and the jewel is loose. Don't recall seeing that on a watch but wouldn't surprise me.

John
 
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mosesgodfrey

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Thanks, all. Yes, some work to be done, and I’ve still not opened it up. We shall see about the wheel. Regulator is first up. Stem may also prove very tricky.

No laughs from me, roughbarked. At least the town is likely in play, IMO.

The setting looks like a later evolution of a once-famous-now-obscure patent family. Second version, patented in 1864 (UK 570) and 1865 (US 47370). Charles Eugene Laederich, alt. Lederich, St-Imier

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John Matthews

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Moses - the UK patent refers to #1339 from the previous year that has an additional diagram that may be useful if you haven't seen it ...

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and from the UK 1864 showing an extra wheel ...

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There were many patents at this time - not 100% certain that your example is an evolution of these patents, but certainly worth investigating. The key maybe if bevel-wheels as described in the patents are present.


John
 
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gmorse

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Hi John,
The key maybe if bevel-wheels as described in the patents are present.
That doesn't appear to be the case here, the pinion on the stem engages at right-angles with the visible teeth on that wheel when in winding mode. The hand setting mode appears to involve the smaller wheel partly hidden underneath it, so there could be a second stem pinion.

Regards,

Graham
 

John Matthews

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Graham - yes I agree, that was the cause for my caution.

I did quickly look to see whether I could find a matching patent, but nothing obvious. I have started to tag keyless mechanisms in my database, but these are mainly on English movements. I have added this example.

John
 

mosesgodfrey

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Guys—note these patents show a few of multiple possible variants. The “extra wheel pic” from 1864 is a variant if someone wanted all the wheels on one side. These patents seemingly were filed in all countries that had patent registries. And he nailed several folks for infringement in the smallest ways.

Any idea when the uk # 570 would have expired?
 

John Matthews

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Moses - the key is the use of bevel-wheels.

John
 

MrRoundel

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There are some interesting features in that movement, aren't there? For instance, the design of the balance arms and the length of the pallet fork. Like roughbarked, my instincts sort of said "Longines". That's fully due to the design of the upper plate. It truly does seem to be a hybrid between English and Swiss. Very cool. Good luck with your quest of info and restoration.
 

mosesgodfrey

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Going back to an earlier question, any idea when UK 570 mentioned above (from 1864) would have expired? I understand it to be a maximum of 14 years: 1878. The US variant expired at the end of 1880.

If the setting turns out to be related, these seem to be the starting dates for me. Circa 1880-1887.
 

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