Chronometry: Arnold & Dent chronometer in a bucket ????

Discussion in 'Chronometers' started by frits, Nov 1, 2015.

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  1. frits

    frits New Member

    Jan 15, 2015
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    Hi

    As an ex-sailor (many years ago;) I have an interest in marine chronometer, specifically the outdoors (=deck) version.
    It would seem that all chronometers are built into a nice little wooden (mahogany?) box, hardly suited for use on a ship's deck.
    A few days ago I came across a picture of an A&D chronometer which was built into a tight-fitting metal/copper? container, a 'bucket' so to speak. In my opinion well suited for the rough outdoors.

    Can anyone tell me if the 'bucket' type container is original and how its value compares to the boxed version?
    Maybe someone also knows of any on offer?

    The picture shows the chronometer and part of the bucket, the key is stored in a slot in the bottom.

    SAM_0434.JPG

    Any type of feedback will be greatly appreciated.
    Regards
    Frits Peters
     
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    You don't take the charts on deck, I don't see why you need to take the chronometer on deck. You need to know the time to work out the longitude, but the issue with reliability was about being away for months at sea and keeping the chronometer working and accurate.

    When I was on Victory a few years ago for an after hours private tour they brought out a Chronometer that was in its original mahogany box, it hadn't been in service on Victory but it was a contemporary.

    The Chronometer was the ship's timekeeper, it was kept in a safe place and locked. Other cheaper timepices could then be set by it for watches, they did not need to be so accurate as they would be set against the chronometer each time they were to be taken on deck.
     
  3. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Frits, firstly welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks for posting your inquiry and the photo of your A&D chronometer. What I see here is that you have the chronometer, possibly in its original brass bowl very similar to the one I have that is mounted in a gimbaled wooden box. I suspect the bucket is not original equipment but something that was put together to hold the chronometer in a functional position. In looking at the photo there appears to be a place at the rim where one of the gimbal pivots was originally attached, I would expect to find the same square opening on the other side at 180 degrees. Here's a photo of another Arnold & Dent exactly like mine, the gimbal pivots are at the rim at 6:00 and 12:00.

    Arnold & Dent.jpg

    Will appreciate if you could post a photo of the dial and movement. Mine has serial number 1333, one of the last ones finished around 1842.
     
  4. rickyn

    rickyn Registered User
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    I'm wondering if the container is one used for carrying the movement, I have a Hamilton that came in a box like that. I was told that what they used to send the movement for servicing.
     
  5. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Jan 22, 2002
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    Frits, I don't think chronometers with detent escapements are ever suited for rough treatment. Regardless, I've seen chronometers, especially French, where the chronometer is fitted into a tub that will nest into another tub that is gimballed.

    On the chronometer in question, what is the "Kol: No. 82"? The bucket in the picture would serve a similar purpose as a gimbal.

    Ralph
     
  6. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    For better exposure with members who have chronometer knowledge and expertise, I'm moving this thread to the Chronometers Forum. Please continue the discussion.
     
  7. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    #7 Burkhard Rasch, Nov 5, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    for many reasons chronos allways were kept under deck.Except of a few verry early experimental pieces-like Harrison's H4- all were mounted in gimbals fitted into a hardwood box,mostly mahogany.These chrono boxes often were housed in an additional transportation box.The determination of the sun height with the sextant-the so called shoting of the sun-was performed with a high quality pocket watch,in German called B-Uhr,in English a hack-watch which was synchronized to the chrono (s) under deck.So Frits should look for a matching chrono box with gimbals,they sometimes apear on evilbay.
    Burkhard
     
  8. frits

    frits New Member

    Jan 15, 2015
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    Thank you all for your replies. I will try to get additional pictures like dial and movement and post them. As to the 'Kol: No 82', it appears to have been etched on the chronometer and is repeated=painted on the inside of the lid. My guess is that it is some kind of inventory number. On the dial, the production? number 734 is printed. I will be able to examine it more closely sometime next week when I have an appointment with the current owner.
    He is willing to part with it, I am just not sure what would be a fitting price. As I only come across boxed chronometers, I wonder if this particular item has some extra value. I am assured that it runs perfecly on a 2-day mechanism.
    Anybody around who has any information as too reasonable pricing?
    Regards
    Frits
     
  9. MartyR

    MartyR Moderator
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    Frits, please note hat our Forum Rules do not allow valuation or discussion of the price of specific items on the Message Board.

    You may send a Private Message to any member to discuss prices.
     
  10. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    I wouldn't . From what I can see, the tub doesn't appear to have had tub supports with bushings . It looks like it was intended to be placed into another tublike/bucket carrier.

    Future pictures may change that opinion.

    Regards, Ralph
     
  11. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    #11 Ralph, Nov 11, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    I was getting deja vu about the chronometer suspension using a bail and bucket as on Frits chronometer. It seemed like I had seen Dutch chronometers using that method. After beating around the internet, I finally found an example.. by Andrea Hohwü, an important Amsterdam chronometer maker.


    http://www.maritiemdigitaal.nl/index.cfm?event=search.getdetail&id=101011405


    John, I think the bezel is a bayonet mount instead of a screw on type, on Frits chronometer.

    Ralph

     
  12. frits

    frits New Member

    Jan 15, 2015
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    Interesting and educational all your replies. I have already decided to visit the Scheepvaartmuseum when I visit the Netherlands/Amsterdam next week.

    The rim does not seem to have any support for the gimbalpoint. The rim has two 'pins' (located at 3 and 9 hrs) to lock the lens in place.

    The Hohwu piece shows a striking resemblance although it appears to be a larger item. The container/bucket for the A&D piece is approx. 10 x 11 cms (height x diameter).

    I attach a picture of the dial, more pictures will follow asap.

    Thank you all,
    Frits Arnold Dent dial.jpg
     
  13. Snapper

    Snapper Registered User

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    Just a shot in the dark here, but not all chronometers were used at sea, some being intended for survey work on land. Could the bucket have been a convenient way of transporting the device by hand?
     
  14. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    The Dutch navy used this method in use of the chronometer. There is no provision for a gimbal.

    Ralph
     
  15. watchwldr

    watchwldr Registered User

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    I might be a little off topic here,but was the Victory you were on part of the Stena line? George
     
  16. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    I'm sure Nick was referring to HMS Victory, which carried Nelson's flag at Trafalgar.
     
  17. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    I am pretty sure he was talking about this Victory

    oops! I did not look at the next page. But, I do concur.
     
  18. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    I came across my catalog from the Boerhaave Museum in Leiden, Netherlands. It has at least 10-12 examples of chronometers in "cannisters". At least two of them are Arnold & Dent. Some of the others are made by familiar prominent names, Frodsham, Molyneaux, etc....

    Some can be seen off this link.

    https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=boerhaave+museum+chronometers

    Ralph
     
  19. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Yes, that Victory. We got to handle some very impressive items from the Museum whilst sat in the Admiral's quarters sat at his dining table.Including Nelson's death mask that Queen Mary found in an antique shop on the Isle of Wight and grabbed a bargain as the recognised the face.
     
  20. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
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    Just had a look at the photograph of Arnold & Dent 734. So I got out "Edward John Dent & His Successors" by Vaudrey Mercer. On page 739 there is Chronometer 742 (734 is a unrecorded piece). 742 was purchased by the Admiralty in 1840. So 734 was sold around that date. How it ended in that bucket we will never know-though one thing is sure it would still work.
     
  21. DeweyC

    DeweyC Registered User
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    Survey work most likely. KOL may be an acronym for the agency.

    I like it.
     
  22. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    #22 Ralph, Mar 27, 2016
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2016
    It may be a surveying chronometer?? ...., but there are many examples like it that are marine chronometers. From an earlier post....

    "I came across my catalog from the Boerhaave Museum in Leiden, Netherlands. It has at least 10-12 examples of chronometers in "cannisters". At least two of them are Arnold & Dent. Some of the others are made by familiar prominent names, Frodsham, Molyneaux, etc....

    Some can be seen off this link.

    https://www.google.com/?gws_rd=ssl#q=boerhaave+museum+chronometers

    "

    Ralph
     

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