Help Any way to self-teach clock repair

mattw26

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I just got into collecting Kundo clocks because I like the rotating pendulums and have thrown around the idea of learning how to repair them so that I could by a non-working clock at a garage sale or online cheaply and fix it myself, just as a hobby. I currently have no experience or knowledge of clock repair or the inner workings of clocks. Are there any books I can read that would enable me to repair a clock with no prior experience. I have heard good things about the Horolovar 400 day clock repair guide here: Horolovar 400 Day Clock Repair Guide but I've heard that it assumes a basic knowledge of clock repair and only covers what is unique to 400 day clocks, so I would need something to rely on in conjunction with this book.

It would also be nice to find a book that touches on quartz clocks, as I have a couple of those.

Are there any books out there that would help me or am I too ambitious?
 

MARK A. BUTTERWORTH

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Absolutely you can learn. Stephen Conover has a great series of repair books starting with basic clock repair. You can get them directly or from Merritt’s and Timesavers. There are some specific to 400 day clocks as well.
 

Rob Martinez

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welcome - beside books there are many videos on youtube and on this site (library) that can introduce you to clock repair. Watch the videos and start on a timepiece or a time and strike. Get the fundamentals down then work into 400 day clocks, etc. There are lots of good books out there but I am more of a visual learner.
 
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Ed O'Brien

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Aside from the danger created by mainspring power, clock mechanisms are somewhat simple mechanical pieces. Usually it is recommended that someone begin with an American 8-day because everything is relatively large, the mainsprings are open and visible and the movements are very forgiving. The anniversary movement is also very simple, being time-only, but the mainspring power must be let down. Also, the anniversary clock is more likely not to run as the result of tiny mistakes or wear that is hardly visible. As to battery clocks, most are powered by movements that are sold new at such low cost as to make repair impractical. Failures most often the result of battery corrosion (sometimes cleanable) or "gummed-up" lubricants. In the latter, a movement can be artificially spun with an electro-magnet {de-magnetizer) and made to run.
 

shutterbug

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Rather than Youtube, where you can find a lot of bad methodology, I would suggest this site because the teacher is an actual clock repairman. His course is not expensive, and is quite good. Of course there are others too, if you google "clock repair course"
 
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Bruce Alexander

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Rather than Youtube, where you can find a lot of bad methodology, I would suggest this site because the teacher is an actual clock repairman. His course is not expensive, and is quite good. Of course there are others too, if you google "clock repair course"
Hello SB,

Perhaps your link/reference could be added to the Resources list I mentioned earlier? I have a number of the "Tick Tock Productions" DVDs, which are listed there, and have found them to be very helpful.

Here's another link to a curated list of learning references: http://theindex.nawcc.org/Repair-Learning.php I think that it includes your reference as well.

Regards,

Bruce
 

tracerjack

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For 400 day clocks, Joseph Rabushka’s book, “Restore and Repair your 400 Day Clock” is the #2 must have after the Horolovar Guide. Has much more detailed information on “how to repair”. The 400 day simplicity makes self-learning well within grasp and requires only one expensive tool, a mainspring winder - although you can build one for much less, such as the Joe Collins version.
 
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Jim DuBois

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Some fair number of folks here have been self-taught. I am one of those, but I also understand there are certain limitations to that approach. I am often reminded my old instructor was an idiot...... There are a number of books and other approaches to learning repair available to you all today that may not have existed when some of us older members started. While 400-day clocks are quite simple, they can also be a bit difficult when all is not well. A wrong or twisted suspension spring is often a starting point for a new repairman's misadventure over the edge of the abyss. Then there are those where someone has decided to bush a 400 day. And then there are those where the excentric on the escapement has been "adjusted." If you are just beginning the adventure it is best to avoid any 400 day with these sorts of issues, at least to start. After a few decent clocks, you will most likely migrate toward those with more serious issues and be better able to manage them.

The books already recommended are good advice. And as already mentioned there is a lot of really bad advice on YouTube and the internet too. There are very few quartz clocks that can be considered repairable, at least in our conventional thinking. And only a very few quartz clocks could pay their way timewise to even consider their repair.
 

kinsler33

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I think we're all self-taught to a great extent. I worked with my father, who was also learning, and later on I worked for a few months in a clock shop, where I was left pretty much to myself, and all that was around 1966. When I re-established the clock works in 2015 I spent a few days reading through the archives of this group, one post after another (I don't recall how far I got.) I've also almost memorized the Timesavers and other catalogs and read a few books. As for books, my experience is that the very old books (typically out of print) are better than the newer ones, though Mr Conover is very good. Note that watch repair was a much larger enterprise than clock repair, and so many resources that claim horological content can be entirely concerned with watch work, even though they're labeled otherwise.
There are also clock repair books whose methodology is to teach you to build a clock from the brass plates up, which I haven't found to be at all effective.

Mark Kinsler
 

Rod Schaffter

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Rather than Youtube, where you can find a lot of bad methodology, I would suggest this site because the teacher is an actual clock repairman. His course is not expensive, and is quite good. Of course there are others too, if you google "clock repair course"
I second Bob Tascione's site; an incredible value. :coolsign:

I was surprised it wasn't on this Forum's Resources list, as I originally found it via the NAWCC website...

http://theindex.nawcc.org/Repair-Learning.php
 
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Elliott Wolin

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I am in a similar situation, but a little ahead of the OP.

I started because I didn't want to pay to fix a stopped movement, in the end all it needed was cleaning and oiling. Then I started oiling other clocks, and one day took the plunge and disassembled and serviced a 400-day clock (needs a new pendulum spring so still not working). It wasn't as difficult as I'd thought, I soon moved on to T&S movements, and am about to overhaul a chiming movement for the first time. My current hobby is to purchase inexpensive, non-working vintage to almost antique clocks and get them working again.

And I bought a non-working 12s 7j NY Standard pocket watch on eBay for $4 and successfully disassembled most of it, cleaned it, and put it back together, oiled it, and now it's working...a minor miracle in my opinion! (problem was over-oiling, the lever lay in a pool of oil and could hardly move)

I read lots of books, checked out a few videos, but mainly relied heavily on this site.

So plunge headfirst in, don't work on anything valuable until your skills improve, ask lots of questions, read books, look at some videos, and you'll be fine.
 
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mattw26

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Thank you all for your advice. This is very helpful and also a bit overwhelming, as I see a lot of resources available to help me. I am more of a visual learner myself, but I would like to have lifetime access to the educational materials. Bob Tascione's site looks like it is reasonably priced--everything for $97. I am seeing some useful DVDs from "About Time", namely Clock Basics, Tools, and a couple of videos about mainsprings and mainspring winders--those are probably the ones I would start with if I bought from "About Time", but I feel like Bob's pay-one-price deal seems like a better place to start and I can buy other materials elsewhere if I need to.

I definitely need to know the basics because I don't even understand a lot of the terminology. I also need to know what tools I need to buy before I can even get started. I've seen pictures of magnifying glass goggles, as well as simple magnifying glass on a stand with a movable arm. (That's just one example of "do I need both or just one of those things?")

I should probably mention that I am in my early 30s with a bachelors degree in computer science, so my normal profession has nothing to do with clocks and many of the clocks that I will be dealing with are going to be older than I am, but this hobby was inspired by two different relatives of mine who gave me a couple of antiquie clocks after they downsized and had to get rid of some stuff.

I have already taken Ed's advice and bought a rather large Howard Miller 8 day clock and an 18 piece clock key set so that I will have a key for every clock I come across in the future. This is a youtube video of the clock that I bought:

This is not my exact clock and that is not me talking in the video, but it is the same clock in working order. My clock was missing the key and the backboard, but I got it fairly cheap at an antique shop near me. I just wound the clock a couple of days ago when I got my key set and the chime works, but the clock will not tick, which is good news because it means I can fix it. The attached pictures are my exact clock. The one thing I noticed about it is that there is no speed lever contrary to what the instructions I found online had mentioned, but it looks like the screw next to the small coil at the top is used to adjust the speed. The instructions also said that if the clock doesn't have a pendulum (which this doesn't) then it should start ticking once I wind it and I don't see any on/off switch or lever to suggest otherwise. I did wind the clock in all three holes and I turned the key clockwise as far as it would go.

The only question I would like to ask before I proceed to dismantle this clock is; can anybody spot anything obviously wrong with it from my pictures?

Thanks again to all!

Photo Nov 08, 1 47 33 PM.jpg Photo Nov 08, 1 47 39 PM.jpg Photo Nov 08, 1 47 50 PM.jpg Photo Nov 08, 1 47 57 PM.jpg Photo Nov 08, 1 51 01 PM.jpg
 

kinsler33

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Yes. Put this clock away and find something else. Have another look at it in a year or two. It's a Hermle balance-wheel clock, the kind with the better balance wheel arrangement but still a significant pain for anyone to repair. The upper time wheels are exceedingly small and the tiny verge is delicate as all get-out. Moreover, it's a chiming clock, with three gear trains, 17 or so wheels, and a very educational chime/strike mechanism on the front under the dial that you'll have to disassemble and then re-adjust on assembly.

You'll be able to do one of these eventually, but not until you've worked on several time-only (that is, no strike or chime) movements that have pendulums and not balance wheels. These are quite forgiving and will teach you the basics you need at first: mainsprings, re-bushing, escapement work, and recovering parts from under furniture.

Note that most clock repair courses--likely _all_ clock repair courses--presume that you've fulfilled your prerequisites in light metalworking, including drilling, filing, polishing, sawing, soldering, annealing brass (it's easy) and tapping threads in holes. None of this is all that difficult, but if you haven't dealt with them, there's some learning to do. It's been my experience that many computer professionals have very little if any experience in working with their hands.

Then find a few clocks that strike, again of the pendulum variety. These will teach you further elements of clock repair. You'll find worn-out lantern pinions, bogus repair work, bent-up levers, and lots of worn pivots. You'll also learn the elements and advantages of horological photography when you cannot remember how the heck the thing looked when it was together.

You'll be able to fix your Hermle in a couple of years, but please don't try to do it now.

Mark Kinsler
 

Bruce Alexander

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If you just want to get a little experience before you service your heirloom clocks, some members here have gone the route of buying orphaned movements on eBay to work with. If you can find a weight driven time only, or time and strike movement that would be ideal. If you find a Time and Strike which is mainspring powered, you'll want to buy or make a mainspring winder although, there are safe methods to work with loop-end mainsprings which don't require a mainspring winder. You use the clock's movement plates instead.

Regards,

Bruce
 
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Robert Horneman

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Enjoy! Believe me you will get hooked. I am learning how to repair Cuckoos. Fairly complicated. Regula and Schatz are easy. Three weight musical and Cuckoo Quail are fun. Been doing it for a little over a year and still learning!
 

murphyfields

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Part of the fun is looking on various sites for bargain deals. My wife found a pretty nice grandfather clock for $25, and that is what has gotten me started. It is amazing what you can find. When people hear that it can cost hundreds of dollars to service a clock, some will sell cheap or even give them away rather than having a large piece of furniture that doesn't work. Just realize that you get what you pay for. For me, I bought a new movement to put in that $25 clock and now my wife is happy with a clock that works, and I am happy with a movement to work on. I agree that the Howard Miller you bought could be a lot of work, but evaluate your own personality. If you like a challenge and are willing to work on something for months, it could be the perfect starter for you (just be really careful with the springs). But if you get frustrated easily, start with something easier. Personally, I am starting out way over my head, because I like it that way despite the advice I was given here (and we will see if they were right or not). I may never get it back together again, but I am having a lot of fun learning, and the people here on this site are wonderful. Also consider how much you invested in the clock. If it is important because you spent a lot or because it means something to you, that is probably not a great starter clock for you. Make your mistakes on a cheap and insignificant clock or movement. And if you want, you can always take it apart and then just try to get the time part working. If you can do that, then go on to the others.
 

mattw26

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Yes. Put this clock away and find something else. Have another look at it in a year or two. It's a Hermle balance-wheel clock, the kind with the better balance wheel arrangement but still a significant pain for anyone to repair. The upper time wheels are exceedingly small and the tiny verge is delicate as all get-out. Moreover, it's a chiming clock, with three gear trains, 17 or so wheels, and a very educational chime/strike mechanism on the front under the dial that you'll have to disassemble and then re-adjust on assembly.

You'll be able to do one of these eventually, but not until you've worked on several time-only (that is, no strike or chime) movements that have pendulums and not balance wheels. These are quite forgiving and will teach you the basics you need at first: mainsprings, re-bushing, escapement work, and recovering parts from under furniture.

Note that most clock repair courses--likely _all_ clock repair courses--presume that you've fulfilled your prerequisites in light metalworking, including drilling, filing, polishing, sawing, soldering, annealing brass (it's easy) and tapping threads in holes. None of this is all that difficult, but if you haven't dealt with them, there's some learning to do. It's been my experience that many computer professionals have very little if any experience in working with their hands.

Then find a few clocks that strike, again of the pendulum variety. These will teach you further elements of clock repair. You'll find worn-out lantern pinions, bogus repair work, bent-up levers, and lots of worn pivots. You'll also learn the elements and advantages of horological photography when you cannot remember how the heck the thing looked when it was together.

You'll be able to fix your Hermle in a couple of years, but please don't try to do it now.

Mark Kinsler
Damn! I thought the Howard Miller clock would be a good starter, but I guess I was wrong. I paid $26 for that clock (to answer murphyfields's question), which was essentially in unknown mechanical condition since I bought it without a key. That didn't seem bad compared to what it would have cost to buy in working order. My ultimate goal, as I initially mentioned, is to be able to repair Kundo anniversary clocks that are like the heirloom clocks I have (basically, I'd like to be able to buy them cheap and fix them myself since the real beauties out there are quite expensive when purchased in working order).

You hit the nail right on the head in terms of my not having any experience in metalworking (or any working with my hands), so that is all foreign territory to me. Classes - About Time - David LaBounty has a DVD titled Metals and is labeled as beginner-level. Their description of the DVD is " A beginning apprentice course to introduce the qualities and characteristics of the metals most commonly found in clock movements. The course will cover hardening, tempering, annealing, and using heat to color steel. A good understanding of metals is important for basic clockmaking."

This sounds like it could be start to what I need to know, but perhaps not detailed enough for me being the dummy that I am. Would you happen to know anything about this DVD, OR would you know of any resources that would give me the prerequisite knowledge I would need?

Other DVDs I found on that site that I would probably want to buy are:
Clock Basics - This one speaks for itself.
Handling Mainsprings
Mainspring Winders
Tools - Supposedly goes over all the different tools, which ones are must-haves and which ones are nice-to-haves. I definitely need to know how much I need to invest in this and in what way.

One thing I probably should have asked sooner: how much space will I need to be able to work on this stuff? It sounds like I'll have to set up some space in my basement for me to work, as well as to store my equipment. That might require that I reorganize the various things I have down there right now.

In terms of suitable clocks to start with, aside from the clock having a pendulum, is there anything else I should look for when shopping around--for instance...
Should the clock be a certain size?
Should I look for a clock with the pendulum on the outside? I know that some clocks have the pendulum on the inside, which is only visible when removing the backing.
Should I stay away from any clock that has more than one mechanism to wind? (Sounds like the answer to that is yes).
I like the idea of buying a working clock, taking pictures of it, taking it apart, and putting it back together, which sounds like what you are suggesting I do, yes? My only concern with this approach is that I will end up paying more for the clock, which I might end up breaking in the process, so I would need to find a cheap working clock. Any recommendations?

Here are a couple of clocks I found, which are not currently for sale, but I was just wondering if clocks like these would be suitable for starting out, provided I can find one that is for sale:

(links to live auctions removed by shutterbug)

Thanks again for the advice. I am at least learning that this is a very complicated field that requires a lot of passion. It would definitely give me something to do, which is a really good thing these days.
 
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kinsler33

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Damn! I thought the Howard Miller clock would be a good starter, but I guess I was wrong. I paid $26 for that clock (to answer murphyfields's question), which was essentially in unknown mechanical condition since I bought it without a key.


If you want to drive antique dealers crazy purchase one of those multiple-bitted keys from Timesavers. You can wind any clock with them, and the guy will think you're an expert and not mess with you. You'll be able to repair that Howard Miller soon enough. Meanwhile just place it on a shelf. (The upper time train is probably gunked up with that strange oil Hermle used, but the whole thing has to be torn down to do a good job.)

That didn't seem bad compared to what it would have cost to buy in working order. My ultimate goal, as I initially mentioned, is to be able to repair Kundo anniversary clocks that are like the heirloom clocks I have (basically, I'd like to be able to buy them cheap and fix them myself since the real beauties out there are quite expensive when purchased in working order).

Anniversary clocks are a slightly different deal because they are (1) delicate and (2) a fat pain to repair and adjust. Generally you'll need a new suspension spring, and these are sold in packs of three because everyone wrecks the things, which are almost invisible.

And anniversary clock repair is in a state of flux as of last Saturday, for that's when Chris Nimon died at his home not far from me. He ran the Horolovar Company, which is likely where you'd be getting information, parts, and the 400-day clock book. Nobody knows what will happen to Horolovar, which is the mother church of anniversary clocks,, Kundo and otherwise, but I somehow seem to be in the middle of the whole thing, probably because Chris and cohort John Gordon are friends. In general, these clocks aren't all that tough to repair once you're used to them, and you can get lots of help from the 400-day forum here.


You hit the nail right on the head in terms of my not having any experience in metalworking (or any working with my hands), so that is all foreign territory to me. Classes - About Time - David LaBounty has a DVD titled Metals and is labeled as beginner-level. Their description of the DVD is " A beginning apprentice course to introduce the qualities and characteristics of the metals most commonly found in clock movements. The course will cover hardening, tempering, annealing, and using heat to color steel. A good understanding of metals is important for basic clockmaking."


And he's right. Some experience is definitely in order, but it's fun.

This sounds like it could be start to what I need to know, but perhaps not detailed enough for me being the dummy that I am. Would you happen to know anything about this DVD, OR would you know of any resources that would give me the prerequisite knowledge I would need?


Yes: go to the library or perhaps a used book store and procure yourself a high-school metal shop textbook from perhaps 1962, which is about when I learned it. Read the thing through and go through the projects therein. (I'm sure your mother will want a hammered brass key-holder.) But it's projects like these that will give you both the skill and confidence you should have to repair clocks and other stuff.

The required tools are available (in the US) at the likes of Harbor Freight or Walmart, or perhaps eBay. You'll need a vise (try to get the largest one you can deal with) a hacksaw plus blades, a jeweler's saw, some files, a one-pound ball-peen hammer, an electric drill with an assortment of bits, an assortment of metal chisels and punches, a big pair of wire cutters, a pair of sheet-metal shears (these don't have to be great, but you'll need them) a tapered reamer for enlarging holes, and an inexpensive set of philips and flat screwdrivers. Oh, and a largish pair of slip-joint 'gas' pliers and a propane torch. Total investment might be around $150.00, and you'll gradually add things like wire brushes for the drill and various assortments of nuts and bolts.

If you cruise a flea market, be on the lookout for large cans of nuts, bolts, and screws left behind by dead guys like me whose wives just wanted to clean out the basement. Such assortments are exceptionally handy especially if they contain scraps of stuff. Flea market tools can be overpriced, but a box of rusty screwdrivers or pliers for a few dollars is a great deal.

And be on the lookout for scrap metal, including discarded sheet steel, brass, or aluminum, and pieces of metal pipe or rod. One fast source I've found is your local recycling center, who will sell you metal by the pound regardless of its form.

Other DVDs I found on that site that I would probably want to buy are:
Clock Basics - This one speaks for itself.
Handling Mainsprings
Mainspring Winders
Tools - Supposedly goes over all the different tools, which ones are must-haves and which ones are nice-to-haves. I definitely need to know how much I need to invest in this and in what way.


Don't, in general, purchase tools from clock parts distributors. If nothing else, go for electronics tools, which are of better quality and lower price. I wouldn't worry about a mainspring winder for a while, and it's not clear if there's enough to talk about with them that justifies an entire DVD.

One thing I probably should have asked sooner: how much space will I need to be able to work on this stuff? It sounds like I'll have to set up some space in my basement for me to work, as well as to store my equipment. That might require that I reorganize the various things I have down there right now.


Well, that depends on how much scrap--scrap metal, scrap movements, scrap everything else--you'll be storing. But you can work off any kitchen table that's sturdy enough to accommodate your vise. Again, I would strongly advise doing basic metalworking projects as discussed earlier before you deal with a clock.

In terms of suitable clocks to start with, aside from the clock having a pendulum, is there anything else I should look for when shopping around--for instance...
Should the clock be a certain size?
Should I look for a clock with the pendulum on the outside? I know that some clocks have the pendulum on the inside, which is only visible when removing the backing.
Should I stay away from any clock that has more than one mechanism to wind? (Sounds like the answer to that is yes).


What you'll want at the start can generously be described as junk. If you're interested, NAWCC chapters around the country have swap meets, and you can generally buy a boxx of scrap clock movements. eBay has these, too. Pay no more than maybe thirty bucks for any assortment, and no more than five for any single movement. You'll find that many are in surprisingly good shape, even so.

I like the idea of buying a working clock, taking pictures of it, taking it apart, and putting it back together, which sounds like what you are suggesting I do, yes? My only concern with this approach is that I will end up paying more for the clock, which I might end up breaking in the process, so I would need to find a cheap working clock. Any recommendations?

See above. The clock doesn't have to be working, and it doesn't have to have a case.

Here are a couple of clocks I found, which are not currently for sale, but I was just wondering if clocks like these would be suitable for starting out, provided I can find one that is for sale:
The New England Clock Co. 8-Day Pendulum ClockVintage Howard Miller 8 Day Pendulum Clock with Key


No. It's mid-century modern, and in good cosmetic condition. What you need is the following:


or something similar. It would be better if a few of these didn't have strike mechanisms and were thus time-only, but you'd want to see if you can remove the strike stuff and just use the time train to make a working clock.

Thanks again for the advice. I am at least learning that this is a very complicated field that requires a lot of passion. It would definitely give me something to do, which is a really good thing these days.


It's important to not overthink it, too. We'll be here to help. Learn some metalwork and shop skills first.
 

shutterbug

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Matt, I had to remove the auction listings that you had in your last post. Live auctions and clock sales are not allowed on this site. Mark's link to parts movements are allowed, as are links to parts only sales. Links to completed auctions are fine, but note that they will disappear in time.
Not to worry. There's much to learn about this site as you go, as well as about clocks :)
 

bangster

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Short answer to your question: It's possible. I did it. But not by starting with chimers (3-train movements). My first victims were 2-train kitchen clocks and shelf clocks.
But I didn't do it alone. A book or two and then this here Message Board.. The rest was history.
 

leeinv66

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Same as me bang, except I never had any books. I still have my first victim (a humble black Sessions shelf clock), though it has gone through several incarnations over the last 45 years.
 

shutterbug

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Yes, links to completed auctions are fine. ;)
 

LaBounty

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Not all may know this...

The ClockClass DVDs are available from the NAWCC Lending Library for those who are NAWCC Members. Simply hover over "Research" on this page in the banner above, then click "Search Our Catalog". Click on "Search Our Online Library" at the right and type "ClockClass" in the search field for a listing of available DVDs.

The Lending Library is an excellent resource and just another reason to become a member for those who aren't already!

Hope that helps,
 

Schatznut

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If you have the Horolovar guide (rest in peace, Chris Nimon) and a copy of Joe Rabushka's book (stupid expensive now that it's gone out of print) and a non-functional 400-day clock or two, you can teach yourself how to rebuild them. And if you can master their frailties and idiosyncrasies, you can move on to other types of clocks. I've done about 25-30 400-day clocks (more like 45-90 if I'm honest about how many of them I've had to take apart multiple times) and have, fortunately, had a pretty good success rate. They've taught me patience and appreciation of good craftsmanship. Always take the time to ask yourself "why" - why was it done that way - because 999 times out of 1000 there's a darn good reason once you figure it out. Occasionally you'll run across something that was a bad idea then and it's an even worse idea now that the clock is old. But that's pretty rare.

On the subject of tools, you can go crazy buying stuff, or gather tools slowly and methodically, or even make your own. I make a lot of my own specialized tools. One tool that I find absolutely indispensable is a variable-speed Dremel tool. I built a spring winding tool out of junkbox parts in my garage and it's been worth its weight. It takes the mainspring out of a 400-day barrel like sucking the pimento out of a coctail olive and is much easier on the knuckles than any other way I've found.

I'm confident enough of my work that I am now beginning to give away my finished clocks to friends and family. That is a big leap - kind of like taking finals in college. If you've cut a corner or not done it exactly right, it will come back and bite you and you'll have to face the disappointment and embarrassment of having it come back into your shop. There's one little Kundo that seems to have separation anxiety and it conks out whenever I deliver it to my friend's house. It's running perfectly on my bench - again...
 

kinsler33

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Aug 17, 2014
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The rebellious Kundo may be experiencing vibration at its home, or it's not quite level, or both. If grandchildren visit they may be fooling with it as well.

Mark Kinsler
 

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Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff