Any info on this H.L Matile keyless winding?

[S.Humphrey]

More or less, a well done standard Jurgensen style bar movement with key winding and setting, but also peeking out from under the dial is an interesting winding system.

I wondered if anyone has patent information on it, or knew if it was one of the Henri Louis Matile's designs, even maybe a picture of a complete example?

thanks,
Steve

 

[Dr. Jon]

Matile made a lot of very fine watches. He had several in the first Neuchtael regulating trials of 1868 one with number 7270 which was a spring detent. Most were in the low 8000 range so this example is probably older circa 1865. Taht is similar to the example in the first post.

They were all stem wind so they probably used this system in 1868.

It's winding could not be patented because the Swiss did not have patents then.

The winding click is especially nice and very similar to the La Brassus click.

The bevel gear is very much like the English system.

 

[S.Humphrey]

Thank you very much, Dr. Jon!
Interesting.
The similarities to La Brassus and Nielsen didn't escape me, but I thought there must be a more concrete attribution for this particular design.
I didn't realize there was no Swiss patent system then.

 

[Dr. Jon]

Henri Louis (H. L.) Matile nearly owned the Neuchatel timing trials, although he sent most to the C class. The A class was for marine chronometers, B was pocket chronometers a long trial and five positions and C was shorter with two positions.

He sent a lot of them to the US.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

I think Jacot may have had a US patent on something very similar. I would expect to see a big round addition to the plate also since the dial seems to be in harms way. I will look through my movements when I get home Sunday.

 

[Dr. Jon]

To clarify a bit. Many Swiss makers patented their inventions in countries where they sold their stuff. Jacot lived in the US and had many US Patents. They could not stop other using their inventions in Switzerland but they could prevent them from selling them in their major markets.

The Swiss began to consider a patent system after the US 1876 exposition where Waltham scared them.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Dr. Jon has provided a good estimate, and, although I can’t pin down a patent for this layout, we can shore up a “no earlier than” date using the barrel.

This safety mechanism had its first incarnation George P. Reed in 1857 (US17055 & USRE510).


DB Fitts in 1858 brought out a similar version (US22174)—still not evolved to yours .

But we finally see something very close in 1860, by Nelson P. Stratton (US30772)

In 1863, a Parisian named JOSEPH ANTOINE JEAN RÉDIER got US39066. He was not able to patent this wheel itself; only in combination with rest of winding gears.


Net, I think 1860 to 1865 is very likely.

 

[Dr. Jon]

I missed "The Elephant in the room"! As lovely as this click is it is redundant. The watch has traditional click on its other side sand allows letting down the mainspring without removing the dial.

I suspect the under dial click is to let the owner reverse the winding crown while winding it.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Perhaps like a stop work, I think

 

[S.Humphrey]

I missed "The Elephant in the room"! As lovely as this click is it is redundant. The watch has traditional click on its other side sand allows letting down the mainspring without removing the dial.

I suspect the under dial click is to let the owner reverse the winding crown while winding it.

If I'm not mistaken, the click will allow for winding in one direction and setting (when the button is pushed) in the other direction.
Obviously, my example is missing the intermediate transfer wheel for the setting, but you can see the post there.

 

[Dr. Jon]

The setting is interesting.

Even with the intermediate wheel the winding wheel remains engaged with the mainspring. The watch does not have stop work, thus it seems that setting it in the winding direction cannot be done when the mainspring is fully wound.

If I did the gear count correctly, the watch can be freely set in the recommended clockwise direction. Trying to set it the "wrong way" winds it.

 

[S.Humphrey]

The setting is interesting.

Even with the intermediate wheel the winding wheel remains engaged with the mainspring. The watch does not have stop work, thus it seems that setting it in the winding direction cannot be done when the mainspring is fully wound.

If I did the gear count correctly, the watch can be freely set in the recommended clockwise direction. Trying to set it the "wrong way" winds it.

I looked at it a little closer today. It sure looks like that is the case.
But, I would love to see a complete example.
The radius from that post, and the depth that the setting wheel engages, looks like it could only connect directly to the hour wheel? It might have been more of a pinon on the post than a wheel necessarily. I can't quite figure how that would engage, exactly.
I need to make some exact measurements. I just guessed today holding some calipers up to it.
Very curious if it was a steel wheel, a brass wheel, the count, tooth shape?

As an aside, there was another signature under those works.
And the over-coil is interesting, I think.

regards,
Steve

 

[Dr. Jon]

I do not beleive Matile used this configuration for long. I have two examples, one much earlier with is key wind set and other with a more common crown and acstle gear which is from 1882.

This watch predates Phillips paper on overcoils which outlined conditions for isochonism and position. They were mostly winging it before this publication, with the requirement that the last parts be concentric so the regulator will not distort the spring when adjusted.

 

[eric the bully]

Probably this movement was for the English market, but it is undeniable that the English solution was superior and more refined, by Thomas Russell.
Regards enrico

 

[S.Humphrey]

Probably this movement was for the English market, but it is undeniable that the English solution was superior and more refined, by Thomas Russell.
Regards enrico

View attachment 750936

Hi Enrico,
Isn't this work by Russell much later though?
Or is it contemporary

Regards,
Steve

 

[eric the bully]

Thomas Russel's address is in Church Street Liverpool was from 1851 to 1906. Another movement from Goldsmiths & Silversmiths in Regent Street from 1885 to 1911. Unfortunately, I only have the movements without the cases, I imagine they date from this period 1885 /1911. Curious that patents have been issued for a click-
spring invented a century earlier!
Regards enrico

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Probably this movement was for the English market, but it is undeniable that the English solution was superior and more refined, by Thomas Russell.
Regards enrico

View attachment 750936

Except that this mechanism, too, was Swiss. Made by Charles Eugene Laederich of St. Imier, who owned the UK, French, and US patents. Although his patents show only a few shapes for the click, the winding mechanism + the pin construction say this certainly his. Here's another of the same variant you show; would be great if I could connect it to Russell, but it is unsigned.


One Laederich patent


Laederich fiercely sued any who tried to get around his patents, like Gondelfinger & Bicket; here's what they filed & started using, which cost them dearly.

 

[SKennedy]

The radius from that post, and the depth that the setting wheel engages, looks like it could only connect directly to the hour wheel? It might have been more of a pinon on the post than a wheel necessarily. I can't quite figure how that would engage, exactly.
I need to make some exact measurements. I just guessed today holding some calipers up to it.
Very curious if it was a steel wheel, a brass wheel, the count, tooth shape?

The teeth on the moving setting wheel are much larger than those on either the minute or hour wheels. So there can't have just been a single wheel on that post as it wouldn't have meshed with both setting wheel and min/hour wheel. I think most likely there were two concentric wheels. A pinion which was in mesh with the minute wheel and attached above it a larger wheel that would mesh with the moving setting wheel when that was pushed inwards.

That you could only set the hands in one direction when the watch was fully wound would be in common with the early Nicole keyless design.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Perhaps moot for the problem at hand, but could this have been retrofitted as stem wind? Perhaps not, as Dr Jon has a couple like it, and I’ve also seen one in the wild.

 

[S.Humphrey]

I think most likely there were two concentric wheels. A pinion which was in mesh with the minute wheel and attached above it a larger wheel that would mesh with the moving setting wheel when that was pushed inwards.

Ah! Yes.
That makes a lot more sense.
I'm starting to get an idea of what it might have looked like.
Thank you!

 

[Dr. Jon]

Here is link to a much later Matile.

A Matile class C chronometer

I recently bought this watch. This posts shows it and what I think I know and poses a few questions. I like H. L.Matile and was looking for a complete example and I had not seen an original class C rating bulletin before this one, which I why I bought the watch. Here is the package. It...

mb.nawcc.org

I suspect most of his watches went the US rather than to the UK so he made very few with the English style of winding