Any info on this Agneessens Chronometer

Rudi

Registered User
Dec 1, 2010
59
36
18
Strand
Country
Hi the everyone,

Got this very strange heavy brass case with a chronometer pocket watch movement inside, the case measures about 8cm in diameter. Not running at the moment but with the balance of one gets a very healthy jump on the pallet fork. This is my first detent in the collection so its not going anywhere. Wil give it a good clean at some stage, what would this have been used for?

a.jpg b.jpg c.jpg d.jpg
 
  • Like
Reactions: MrRoundel

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
14,569
3,689
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Rudi,
Not running at the moment but with the balance of one gets a very healthy jump on the pallet fork.
Just to be clear, did you take the balance out with power on the train?

Regards,

Graham
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,480
1,884
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
You have a pivoted detent chronometer. Normally its a very good idea to take down the power before removing the balance.

It is possible that you have a Grossmann variant. That is pivoted detent with a third catch to lock up the escape wheel. If you do it is very unusual and dates it to the 1880's or later.

Usually detent timepieces lack this feature and are very easy to badly damage by careless removal of the detent. The result of broken locking jewel. Its symptom is that the ran spins when you wind the watch.

The watch does not have a pallet but a detent which will move when the balance roller hits it.

These were made as expensive novelties. Its use was up to the owner.
 

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
7,317
5,063
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
I think these may be interesting pivoted detent chronometers, but their quality is all in the finish. This basic ebauche appears to have been bought and completed by a variety of finishers --- some very nicely and some rather crudely. Rudi's watch appears to be quite nicely finished. The rather curious Chronometer Dueber is one other example, and I have seen a few others over the years. Below are an open-face on the left (my watch) and a hunter on the right (my photo).
Swiss Chronometre.jpg
 
Last edited:

Bernhard J.

NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Jan 10, 2022
1,053
1,103
113
Berlin, Germany
Country
Region
I believe to recall that the movement is a typical LIP movement (i.e. French). I had one a few decades ago and recall that the return spring of the pivoted detent is rather simple. It is not a finely coiled spring similar to a hairspring (as in better Swiss chronometers), but simply a crude looking blade at the opposite end of the detent.

I believe these were made in various finishing qualities, so it might be that your pivoted detent has a less simple return spring.

Cheers, Bernhard
 

mosesgodfrey

NAWCC Member
Aug 30, 2017
387
298
63
Country
Region
Below are an open-face on the left (my watch) and a hunter on the right (my photo).
I’m intrigued by the Hunter on the right, Jerry. Was it marked in any way? Perhaps for Fernier Freres?

Back to the original watch, does this double wheel setup provide any clues? I’ve not seen one like it. As to the purpose, perhaps an early automobile clock? Seems the brass housing was made to insert into something. If we follow Bernhard to Lipmann Freres, that may put it circa 1905, so an automobile use may explain why it is still key wound.

A7FC2BEF-8FFF-4594-A77C-C21C80E701C7.jpg
 
Last edited:

eri231

Registered User
Jan 13, 2012
1,857
922
113
torino italy
Country
Region
They were built by Charles Hahn (Landeron) and finished by several watchmakers as mentioned by Bernard LIP but also Courvoisier Dubois and Jaquet & Girard. But those of Jaquet & Girard on the movement was "Chronometre a renversement " patent ch25896 to protect the balance from overbanking.
Other movements had a spring that blocked the escape wheel when lifting the balance bridge.
Regards enrico
 

mosesgodfrey

NAWCC Member
Aug 30, 2017
387
298
63
Country
Region
Hahn? Interesting. So what decade(s) are we in? I had assumed Jerry's were both 1880s, the original post watch from some years later.

I had to look up the J&G patent, to see what it did. Maybe the pic will help others, too.

1664306251327.png
 

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
7,317
5,063
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
I’m intrigued by the Hunter on the right, Jerry. Was it marked in any way?
Unfortunately I don't own that watch. I had it in hand to take the one photo several years ago and do not know of any marking other than what may be in the photo.
 

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
7,317
5,063
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
These unique ebauche are discussed in a lengthy article in our most recent Bulletin (Nov./Dec. 2002). Some of the information seems different from what has been posted here.
By the way - is there any evidence that the "Chronometer Dueber" had anything to do with the Hampden Watch Co. or Dueber case company?
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
7,480
1,884
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
Jerry has a slight typo, the current issue is Nov/Dec 2022 and it has a long article in these. The common shape which I had not noticed is that the balance cock base is shaped like and arrow head.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry Treiman

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
7,317
5,063
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
I think it was chronometre Dubois not Dueber
Regards enrico
No ... the model in question is as shown here - Figure 1C from the article. Various references in the past have implied an association with the Hampden Watch Co.
ChronDueb.jpg
 

Tom McIntyre

Technical Admin
Staff member
NAWCC Star Fellow
NAWCC Ruby Member
Sponsor
Golden Circle
Aug 24, 2000
85,205
2,950
113
86
Boston
awco.org
Country
Region
The use of Chronometer on mid grade watches is well established. Those are ordinary 16 size American watches. The status on the detent chronometers seems like a separate question.

I had always thought the Chronometer Dueber were a product sold by the Dueber Watch Works but I do not recall seeing anything definitive on the matter.
 

VinSer

NAWCC Member
Jun 15, 2021
121
161
43
Country
These unique ebauche are discussed in a lengthy article in our most recent Bulletin (Nov./Dec. 2002). Some of the information seems different from what has been posted here.
By the way - is there any evidence that the "Chronometer Dueber" had anything to do with the Hampden Watch Co. or Dueber case company?
Just signalling this old thread in the american watches on the same type of movement.

Ciao
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry Treiman

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
7,317
5,063
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
By the way - is there any evidence that the "Chronometer Dueber" had anything to do with the Hampden Watch Co. or Dueber case company?
I had always thought the Chronometer Dueber were a product sold by the Dueber Watch Works but I do not recall seeing anything definitive on the matter.
I suppose we can't know if this is all original, but last year Jones-Horan sold one of these watches in a box labeled "The Dueber Watch Case Mfg. Co."
The fact that the movement is in a display case makes me wonder if this package might not have been assembled as we see it by a previous collector.

chronduebJH.jpg
 

Forum statistics

Threads
177,713
Messages
1,557,614
Members
53,661
Latest member
sara.fagan73
Encyclopedia Pages
909
Total wiki contributions
3,058
Last edit
Watch Inspectors by Kent