Anton Harder Disc Pendulum

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by Michael Davies, Jun 14, 2007.

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  1. Michael Davies

    Michael Davies Registered User

    Nov 29, 2005
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    I am working on The Harder DRP 2437 number 504R (GW&Cie) pictured below. As you will see from the pendulum close-up the weight adjustment rod has its threads taken right to the ends, which are perfectly finished, i.e. do not terminate in broken-off square ends which we have all seen before.

    The rod is a pefect fit into the weights, which have no A/R or F/S markings, but it puzzles me - is it original or a replacement? Questions arising are:
    1. Did some of these very early disc pendulums have rods without square ends?
    2. If yes how were they adjusted "on clock"?
    3. Shoud the weights have fast/slow markings?

    The clock is in tip-top condition and running perfectly - it all looks original to me (but I am in no way an expert on these!!)

    I have put the three pictures on in case John Hubby does not have this one in the database. Could John, Mr C W Mun or one of the other specialists help with answers to my queries above? I will be grateful for any comments, particularly on whether I should proceed to machine square ends on the rod.

    MichaelDavies.
     

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  2. Albra

    Albra Registered User

    Oct 17, 2006
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    Hello Michael,

    what a sensation! I think this is one of the very first anniversary-clocks of the "Jahresuhrenfabrik":clap:

    The first name of Jahresuhrenfabrik was "Wintermantel & Co", founded by Gerson Wintermantel, August Schatz and others.

    So I am quite shure: The letters GW&Cie mean Gerson Wintermantel & Cie.
    Your clock can be dated c1882/83.

    Albra

     
  3. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

    Sep 5, 2000
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    Hi Michael.

    Practically all the early Harder clocks that I've seen have disc pendulum regulating rods with square ends and the regulating weights were stamped with R and A. Also the regulating weights of these early clocks measure no thicker than 4.5mm . Clocks made by JUF from around 1890 onward have much thicker regulating weights.

    The size of the patent inscriptions on the dial of your clocks is a little unusual as it appears to be larger than those found on the dial of similar type of clock that we sometime see.

    You certainly have acquired a rare and beautiful clock.

    Mun C.W.
     
  4. Tom McIntyre

    Tom McIntyre Technical Admin
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    Aug 24, 2000
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    What a wonderful clock. It is mysteries like this that keep the hobby so interesting.

    Just for comparison, here is the more "standard" marking and pendulum on these clocks. You can click on the small image to make it larger.

    53.jpg
     
  5. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Sep 7, 2000
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    Michael, you have a really nice clock. I do already have it in my database, however I had not noticed the adjusting rod configuration previously, as the photos I have of the clock from a previous owner have both ends of that rod hidden behind the movement support posts.

    I agree with Mun, that there "should" be a square filed at least for one end of the adjusting rod. All the Harders I have photos of where the rod can be seen, have the square at both ends.

    I am also curious about the dial. It has different lettering than others made between late 1880 (after Harder was assigned the Jehlin patent DRP 2437) and prior to early 1883 (after receiving the British and U.S. patents for the Graham escapement). It also has black numbers whereas all the ones I have in my data files have BLUE numbers, as seen in the photo below of serial number 19. This is typical (layout, lettering, color, etc) of the following clocks:
    Serial number 183 (verge escapement, probably made by Becker in 1881)
    Serial numbers 19, 94, 95, 112, 183, 308, and 518 (Graham escapement, all made by GW&Cie)

    Others who post here have clocks made in this period and it would be interesting to hear their comments (and see their photos!).

    John Hubby
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  6. Michael Davies

    Michael Davies Registered User

    Nov 29, 2005
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    Thank you Albra, Mun, Tom and John for your erudite comments - I'll do a bit more research on this before I square the rod ends.

    I've posted another picture of the dial below - it's the diameter of the circled inscription which I find particularly interesting, I haven't found anything like it yet on the Harder resources I've been searching. Black numerals do exist on later models (see Bill NY's pictures of 2604 R - triple patent - posted on June 4 2006) but not on the Harder models that I've yet seen.

    The dimensions of the solid brass-turned pendulum are 91mm (3 and 5/8 inches) diameter and 10mm (13/32 inch) thick, and the weights are 5.5mm (about 7/32 inch) thick.

    I will be very interested to see if we get any further comments or pix.

    Michael Davies
     

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  7. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Sep 7, 2000
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    Michael, I've done some more looking through my archives regarding the Harder Dials. Here's a brief summary:

    1878>1880
    Large diameter dials: All Black, Roman No's, Minute ring, "Harder Ransen bei Steinau a/O"
    Small diameter dials: Blue Roman No's, Minute tics (no ring) in black, "Harder Ransen bei Steinau a/O" in black.

    1881>1882, serial numbers up to 602 documented
    Large diameter dials: All Black, Roman No's, Minute ring, "Harder Ransen bei Steinau a/O" above, "D. R. Patent No. 2437" below.
    Small diameter dials: Blue Roman No's, Minute tics (no ring) in black, "Harder Ransen bei Steinau a/O" above and "D. R. Patent No. 2437" below in black.

    Early to mid-1883, serial numbers from about 595 to 800, "abbreviated patent" dials
    No large diameter dials documented as yet.
    Small diameter dials: All Black, Roman No's, Minute tics (no ring), Patent numbers in circle "D.R.P. 2437 R.L.P 2182" above, "U.S.P. 269052" below.

    Mid-1883 to mid-1887, serial numbers from about 800 to 5650, "full patent" dials
    Large diameter dials: All Black, Roman No's, Minute ring, Patent numbers in circle "D. R. Patent 2437 R. L. Patent 2182" above and "U. S. Patent 269052" below.
    Small diameter dials: All Black, Roman No's, Minute tics (no ring), Patent numbers in circle "D. R. Patent 2437 R. L. Patent 2182" above and "U. S. Patent 269052" below.

    NOTE: I have documented two only dials in the 1883-1887 period with blue roman no's, so they did exist but are not common.

    Early 1884 to mid-1887, serial numbers from about 1700 to 5650, DeGruyter strikers
    All large dials: All Black, Roman No's, Minute ring, wording in circle "400-Day Strike" above and "DeGruyter's Patent" below. Note that several dials found have no wording in the center.

    So far, your dial is the only small dial with a minute ring, and it has the unusual lettering as well.

    I've already posted one of the small dials from the 1881>1882 period. Shown below are first, a dial from first half 1883 (abbreviated patent dial); then one of the large dials (used mainly on wall clocks) from 1881 to show the minute ring that is absent from the small dials; then a small dial from mid-1883 onward (full patent dial).

    John Hubby
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  8. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

    Sep 5, 2000
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    Hi John,

    In addition to what you have mentioned I would like to add a previously undocumented De Gruyter Striker dial. It is a metal dial with black Roman numerals and decorated with fleur de lys between the numerals. The scripts of the De Gruyter patent inscriptions found on the dial is different from what had been documented so far. The striker with this dial has serial number in the 4000 range.


    Mun C.W


     

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  9. kepiting1sg

    kepiting1sg Registered User

    Jun 19, 2006
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    Hello Mr Hubby,

    I have a clock here with the dial similar to Michael's dial except it doesn't
    have the patent numbers on the dial or numbers or alphabet on the back plate.
    I was told that the name and address on the dial probably belongs
    to a clock shop in Germany, Berlin at a place where they call Linden Street.

    It does have the square end on both ends of the weight adjusting rod and the usual R/A on one weight and F/S on the other.

    My guess is that this clock was made probably after the full patent dial ended in 1887.

    I look forward to your comments please!

    6.jpg

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  10. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Sep 7, 2000
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    Hi Mun, I had the opportunity several months ago to document this clock via one of its owners. This is the most elaborate striker dial presently in my database. From the serial number the clock was made in 1886, interestingly it has a very unusual mahogany pagoda style case and was marketed by Camerer Cuss of London.

    John Hubby
    >>>>
     
  11. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Sep 7, 2000
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    Hi KP, you made a very good guess. Your clock is typical of those made by Jahresuhren-Fabrik from 1888 to about 1894 or 1895, when the disc pendulum with no gallery had mostly been supplanted by pendulums with six-pillar galleries of various designs. The name of the retailer on the dial has been seen before but I don't have any specific info yet about the company. There has been some contemporary trade publication info recently uncovered that may lead to a specific identification so if that happens I'll post here or let you know otherwise.

    There isn't much else to add, except you have a very nice clock!

    John Hubby
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  12. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

    Aug 8, 2004
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    Greetings KP and all --

    Sorry that I haven't been following this section for a bit.

    Johannes Hartmann was a fairly well known clockmaker's shop -- not a factory -- with a good entry in the standard reference, Abeler's _Meister der Uhrmacherkunst_. The firm was founded by George Nevir on Unter den Linden in 1763. And there's a longish entry in Abeler that traces it under Nevir etc. up to 1856 when it was taken over by by Johannes Hartmann. He had however problems with his eyes and therefore retired in 1872. Then the firm went to H.A. Markfeldt (see below). And then in 1901 came Hennings (also) then in 1924 Heinrich Simon and then his son Arthur in 1938. In short, the firm existed until World War II under different names. Many clocks from Hartmann et al. show up...and so on with some from catalogues listed.

    Johannes Hartmann of Unter den Linden 48/49 is also listed in the 1904 German trade _Adreßbuch_ (made available on a CD by our Deutsche Gesellschaft für Chronometrie). The propriters at that time were given as H.A. Markfeldt and Willy Hennings. Markfeldt is also listed in Abeler. It's noted here as well that the Nevir business dated back to 1763. And that the clockmaker-to-the-court Markfeldt was celebrating in 1903 his 30-year anniversary as prop. of the firm Joh. Hartmann.

    And indeed, you can actually see a photo of the shop through http://www.alte-spieluhren.de/uhrmacher_hartmann.htm

    Yes, it's not often that you can see where your clock at one time resided.

    Regards,
    Z.
     
  13. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Sep 7, 2000
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    Z, thanks very much for the history lesson!

    John Hubby
    >>>>
     
  14. kepiting1sg

    kepiting1sg Registered User

    Jun 19, 2006
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    Hello z,

    Thank you for the enlightening history of Johannes Hartmann and the link to the clockmaker shop. :clap:
    Those trees outside the shops must be Linden trees!
    "Under the Linden Trees" :cool:

    You are right to say that not everyday you get a chance to see where the clock once resided >100 years ago. :thumb:

    I am so happy that now I have more information of my clock! :)

    danke-schön
    Viele Grüße aus Singapur
    KP Seah
     

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