Antique Working D.D. Neveren London Pocket Watch (lots of pictures)

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by JohnOak, Nov 30, 2016.

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  1. JohnOak

    JohnOak Registered User

    Nov 23, 2015
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    I just got a good deal on an antique possibly 1700's (not sure though) pocket watch. It is marked D.D. Neveren London. I have photos of the watch and very close ups of the movement and the dial. I believe it is silver and has a ruby movement.

    I was just wondering if anyone knows much about this watch? Especially the year.

    I know this may not be the most valuable pocket watch in the world, but the fact it could be over 200 years old makes it really neat.

    My second question is, it runs well, but it is very fast (3 minutes late an hour). Is there a way to slow down the movement? I see there is a place on the back that it may be possible.

    Thanks a lot for your help!!


    30532342513_418cb409ee_n.jpg IMG_5430-2 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr




    31339802265_f06151b2cc_n.jpg IMG_5428-1 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr



    31339798415_16136b578d_n.jpg IMG_5432-3 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr

    30517508854_23bb10bd80_n.jpg DSC_4664-4 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr



    30532354413_a8098ce28e_n.jpg DSC_4680-6 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr

    30532352253_0f4bb13552_n.jpg DSC_4683-7 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr

    31339807265_bf75460e77_n.jpg DSC_4686-8 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr

    30532348173_ee667ed583_n.jpg DSC_4688-9 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr



    30532345553_208df5c51b_n.jpg DSC_4690-11 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr

    30532340993_9346f3da30_n.jpg IMG_5436-4 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr
     
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    I've seen this signature before and wondered about the origin. There is always the possibility that he came here and carried on his traditions from wherever he started but to me they don't look very English.

    My Baillies has him in London 1784 but whether he made your watch we must wait for others to say.
     
  3. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #3 Omexa, Nov 30, 2016
    Last edited: Nov 30, 2016
    Hi, I won't use the 2 magic words, this is Swiss, because a lot of people jumped on me in a recent post. http://www.antiquewatchstore.com/archive/2103-d-d-neveren-london.html Moderator I am not sure if I am allowed to use the link to the website, if not please delete. There is no price on it so I am not sure if it is for sale or not. Regards Ray
     
  4. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Ray,

    It's in the archive section, so it's been sold. A piece like this with a spurious signature purporting to be from London when it isn't, can justifiably be described as a fake, intended to deceive.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  5. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Dec 28, 2010
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    Interesting about the possible origins of this "D.D. Neveren, London". I don't have one exactly like it, but it's pretty close. It's a "D. Neveren, London". The bridges look the same, etc., but it doesn't have the second "D" on the dial or the movement. Still, I'm guessing it's from the same maker. I always thought that the bridge design looked different than other English fusees. A fake, eh? Interesting. Cheers.
     

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  6. RON in PA

    RON in PA Registered User
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    To me it looks like a Swiss made Dutch fake.
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi John,

    There are quite a few clues to suggest that this watch isn't from London, or indeed anywhere in the UK.

    The balance bridge has already been mentioned, but there are others; the shape of the pillars, the style of the dial and hands, the relatively crude engraving and piercing of the bridge and the slide plate, the brass regulator disc, and the mechanism between the plates for adjusting the crown wheel depth into the verge.

    Neveren.JPG

    Most of these by themselves might possibly be found in English watches, but in combination like this, the conclusion is clear.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  8. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

    Jan 13, 2012
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    I think it is a fake made in France. the case has the hallmark of a French casemaker. This type of balance bridge was made by Japy freres of Beaucourt.
    regards enrico
     
  9. JohnOak

    JohnOak Registered User

    Nov 23, 2015
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    So does anyone know what year it could be made? Here is a closeup of the of the caseback of the watch itself. There are some markings as you can see, but it is very hard to read.

    30532345553_958b9b5a10_h.jpg DSC_4690-11 by Conrad's Media Services, on Flickr
     
  10. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    the casemaker hallmarks diamond shaped were introduced in France in 1838.
    regards enrico
     
  11. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Was Mr Neveren even around then?
     
  12. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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  13. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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  14. MrRoundel

    MrRoundel Registered User
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    Maybe the Swiss makers were English speaking, and had a bit of fun with the name, as in "Never in" London?:whistle:
     
    Jerry Treiman and eri231 like this.
  15. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    #15 Lychnobius, Dec 2, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 29, 2017
    I would guess that the watch under discussion dates from about 1780-1800, which is consistent with Baillie's date. It is true that verge watches were still being made much later (certainly in the 1850s and some say in the 1880s), but many features visible here - the convex dial, the flattened bow, the pierced slide-plate and the hexagonal pillars - make me think of an earlier date.

    It is, unfortunately, not at all uncommon for unrestored verges to gain several minutes each hour. This is a simple matter of wear. The verge escapement - a miniature version of a pattern devised for huge wrought-iron church clocks in about 1300 - is a very unrefined system; it has no jewels at all and it involves sixteen thousand head-on collisions every hour between the mild-steel pallets (which project from the balance-staff) and the soft brass crown-wheel. The result is that the pallets wear down, thus making less and less contact with the wheel, and after a while the depth-adjustment system mentioned by Graham can no longer take up this wear; I have seen cases in which pallets and crown-wheel teeth no longer overlap at all, so that the train-wheels simply buzz away like the mechanism of a push-and-go toy and the watch runs down in a matter of seconds just as if the balance assembly were not there, even though nothing is actually broken or missing.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  16. JohnOak

    JohnOak Registered User

    Nov 23, 2015
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    I do have a question. What is the ruby (I think) that I can see on the back of the movement? Is it just for show? Thanks!
     
  17. Lychnobius

    Lychnobius Registered User

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    This is what is called an endstone. In theory it is a cap placed on top of another jewel which is pierced right through to act as a bearing for the outer end of the balance-staff, the cap serving as a means of holding the balance-staff firm and reducing its tendency to wear and the ends. In practice, however, only the very finest verges had any functional jewels at all, and I suspect that the ruby here is indeed only decorative, with nothing under it except a pivot-hole in the brass cock itself.

    Oliver Mundy.
     
  18. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    I'm no watch repairer, but the endstone is a cap over the jewelled bearing for the pivot.

    In English watches of the period the endstone is usually a diamond.

    edit you got a much better answer first
     
  19. pmwas

    pmwas Registered User

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    I decided to dig out this thread to re-post some long lost pictures of mine (from 2017).

    I happen to have a Neveren watch as well. Not like a big deal - plenty of Neverens around...

    neveren 01.jpg

    Hallmarks as seen. Inlay card shows a watchmaker form Denmark, which might be revealing...

    neveren 02.jpg

    Took a while to take that apart. terribly jammed taper pins and rusty cannon pinion… yuck… I remember that even today...

    neveren 03.jpg

    Modified escape wheel bearing's height (to fit replaced parts?)...

    neveren 04.jpg

    Crudely cut ruby endstone...

    neveren 05.jpg

    Fusee assembled...

    neveren 06.jpg

    The movement is NOT English, definitely as Swiss as it can be. It could also be French, but definitely not English watchmaking philosophy...

    neveren 07.jpg

    Nothing very special about this movement. Only the fact that it is huge, that's all...

    neveren 08.jpg

    Nearly done, but on adjustment I broke the rusty hairspring and had to use an American one, with a grotesquely wide outer coil...

    neveren 09.jpg

    OK, done...

    neveren 10.jpg

    Later I fitted a crystal and the watch has been sitting in my 'oldies' box for 3 years.
    I took these forgotten boxes out recently and I check on each and every of them if there's nothing wrong with them.
    I've even re-repaired one quartier with parts and experience gathered through these years, but for this one I have no more ideas.

    I could try to fit a nice, old hairspring as I have one or two of them (but probably for lighter balance wheels), but I will not cope with the terribly (audibly) unstable rate.

    This verge movement just keeps speeding up and slowing down and speeding up again even when it lies steadily on table.
    There's clearly something wrong with the escapement, but... whatever - I don't use it for timekeeping anyway ;)



    As for the origin of these Neveren 'London' watches - I once read (not reliable source) that these oversized watches were Swiss made fakes for Scandinavian market. The Danish inlay card could support that theory, but... who knows?

    One thing is for sure, these Neveren watches are definitely continental and have nothing to do with English watchmaking whatsoever.
     
    Ethan Lipsig and viclip like this.

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