Antique silver calendar pocket watch, Help with identification

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by gshep, Apr 30, 2017.

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  1. gshep

    gshep Registered User

    Jul 4, 2013
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    #1 gshep, Apr 30, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 30, 2017
    Hello

    Is this possibly a J Verhagen double dial pocket watch.

    All the ones I have seen are pin set, this is a lever set.

    It is the most impressive one that I have seen.

    I do not recognise the 875 mark (country of origin) and I have never seen this type if dial before.

    The bear silver mark was used between 1800 and 1933.

    Any help or information would be much appreciated.

    Regards Gary
     
  2. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    bear mark used between 1893 and 1934 I think and has one bear
     
  3. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Gary,

    The single bear signifies 0.875 silver purity, between 1880 and 1933. Three bears were used for the UK market and signified 0.935. More useful information here.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  4. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    this calendar was made by Henri Jacot -Burmann patent ch 24914 year 1903
    regards enrico
     
  5. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    Hi Enrico

    I noticed today through research, that this style of watch used a few different types of movements. Most of them were pin set and the month window on the calendar dial was at the position just under the crown. Mine is at the left of the crown at the 9 o'clock position.

    J Verhagen used at least two types of movement one was almost a reversed example of mine but it was pin set . I do agree that Henri Jacot-Burmann had a few patents on this type of watch but I could not find the technical drawings to confirm mine is one of them.

    I also noticed that the month window on my watch is in German. All of the dials I looked at were porcelain and a lot of them had the word Brevet which I think means patent.

    I also found a 18 carat Russian example which was lever set and the month window was in the same position as mine.

    Regards Gary
     
  6. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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  7. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    Hi Enrico

    Today I did a web search on Jacot-Burmann calendar watches and I found on this forum two early examples that have virtually the same movement with the earlier patent with the moon phase in the calendar section. One was a pin set and the hunter case one was lever set.

    What I found most interesting, if you look at the bridge on my movement and the bridge on the other two they have all been altered.

    Could you explain.

    The information you have provided was very helpful.

    Regards Gary
     
  8. eri231

    eri231 Registered User

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    http://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?77004-Moon-phase-pocket-watch&highlight=jacot+burmann

    LloydB

    Re: Moon phase pocket watch

    It appears that the bridge has been milled away at
    the end (near the balance, and not very smoothly)
    and there's a small, brass, tear-shaped lever there --
    must be to set/advance the calendar.

    Is that lever controlled internally via the crown?
    (It looks to be too crude a modification, for the
    calendar to be activated through the train, but
    I've been wrong before ;-)

    View attachment 342325

    regards enrico
     
  9. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    Hi Enrico

    Yes; I looked at the two watches on the link you provided, and the bridges look like they have been attacked with an angle grinder.

    If you enlarge the photo on the movement the bridge on my watch was done with a little bit more care

    The top 20% has been neatly cut off and a triangle shaped wedge has been fitted in the gap to increased the curve so the hole could be drilled on the edge of the bridge and a little wedge has been fitted I presume advances the calendar.

    Even though this watch has been packed away for seventy years I gave it a wind anyway and all functions are working correctly ( I will get serviced though to prevent damage).

    I have noticed that silver smiths often have their own silver marks as well, as the 875 mark has a unusual look to it, is it possible to identify the case maker from this alone.

    Regards Gary
     
  10. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Gary,

    There's another rather rubbed stamp near the hinge joint which looks like "N&M". This could be the case maker's mark.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  11. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    Thanks Graham

    Yes; it has something & M and just below the 875 silver mark it is stamped 3 and 9 on one side of the case only.

    I am going to investigate.

    Regards Gary
     
  12. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    #12 gshep, May 4, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: May 4, 2017
    Hello Graham

    This is the watch chain that was fitted to the pocket watch when I purchased it. Layed out end to end it is 34 inches long . I don't know what the material is it may be silver not marked.

    Has a very unusual clasp, probably made of nickel you unscrew it fit it over the bow close it and it screws up tight.

    I wonder whether the watch and the chain started off life together.

    Regards Gary
     
  13. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Gary,

    The chain does appear to be silver, and probably contemporary with the watch from its style.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  14. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    Hi Graham

    Here is a photo of what I think is called a service mark in the case. It looks like Y with two double lines under it followed by the numbers 20014 with a B underneath. If this is a service mark if so can you tell me what it means.

    Also around the period this watch was made watch makers were mostly using porcelain dials, much earlier they were using champleve dials. Is the dial on my watch what you would called a silvered dial.

    Regards Gary


    [​IMG]
     
  15. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Gary,

    Repairers' marks would only have been meaningful to the people who put them there, they were usually in a private code and are now largely undecipherable.

    The dial components do look like silvered or painted metal; real porcelain dials are are exceedingly rare, most of the 18th and 19th century white dials are enamel on brass, or on gold in the very best English work. The beautiful silver or gold champlevé dials fell out of fashion in the first quarter of the 18th century.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  16. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    Hello

    I think that different countries and different case makers have/ had their own silver marks.

    Is it possible to identify the origin of a case eg country and case maker by this 875 silver mark, as it has a rather specific look about it?

    Please find image below.

    Regards Gary

    [​IMG]
     
  17. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    I've never seen that specific banner design, but the mark is western European as determined by the use of a comma rather than a period for the decimal point. I have seen 87.5% marking on Swiss and French cases before, although this is reltively unusual - the more common Swiss purities are .800 and .935.

    If I had to guess, I would go for French, German or Swiss in that order of likelihood ... perhaps the unusual style of the "7" would be a further clue?
     
  18. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    Hi Martin

    Were Henri Jacot -Burmann the inventors and patent holders to the calendar section of my watch, or just the patent holders?

    I also had a look today at European hallmarks and I am looking at France - Paris as possible makers of case.

    Thank you for your input, it was helpful.

    Regards Gary
     
  19. gshep

    gshep Registered User

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    #19 gshep, Jun 19, 2017
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 22, 2017
    Hello

    When I first looked at the movement, it appeared that the bridge had been cut and joined

    But after taking a side on photo of the bridge, it has been machined and cut away, then gilded (not a bad job).

    Also can someone tell me from the photo how many jewels this movement has as it is not marked.

    photo of bridge below.

    Regards Gary
     
  20. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Gary,

    If all the jewels visible on the top plate are matched in the pillar plate, (which isn't necessarily the case), then this has 15 jewels; 5 for the balance, 2 for the pallets, then two each for the lever, escape, 4th, and 3rd wheel pivots.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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