Ansonia Wheel Repair

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Watch2546, May 18, 2017.

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  1. Watch2546

    Watch2546 New Member

    May 18, 2017
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    I have an Ansonia 8 3/4 and the teeth on both great wheels are really worn. I was hoping to buy another movement and swap the wheels over but I am unable to find one. I can find a few Ansonia 5 movements but I assume the wheels would be different sizes:???: Otherwise I need to get new wheels cut.

    So my question really is does anyone know where I could buy replacement wheels or failing that get new ones cut?
    Regards
     
  2. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Jul 3, 2016
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    Can you give us a tooth count and outer diameter measurement rim to rim since the teeth are worn? Also a picture of the worn teeth. It would be sad to put in new or good wheels and have them wear as well. Any idea why the teeth are so worn?

     
  3. Watch2546

    Watch2546 New Member

    May 18, 2017
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    Tooth count on both 84
    outside diameter to top of teeth 71mm (2.798inches)
    Diameter rim is 67.15mm (2.644inches) from bottom of the tooth trough across
    Hopefully the pictures will show wear. But the teeth tops are still ok.
    I have never seen this type of wear so I don't know how. View attachment 344186 View attachment 344187 View attachment 344188
     
  4. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    #4 R. Croswell, May 18, 2017
    Last edited: May 18, 2017
    Unless you plan to bush the first and second wheel you might consider leaving well enough alone. Old wheels and pinions wear together and can be quite happy until one part is replaced or "tightened up" upsetting their 'comfortable relationship'. If the wear is so bad as to require a replacement. one method is to simply unmounts the wheel and flip it over and run the other (unworn) face of the tooth. "Simply" may not be the best term because you will have remount the click and remount the wheel but this is a solution that does work and you have the added benefit of keeping everything original.

    RC

    Looking at the pictures, I've see a lot worse than that run just fine. The problem comes if you bush the second wheel pivots (or the 1st ) of the pinion is a bit closer to the wheel. The pinion can want to bind or 'hang' on the 'step' where the worn part of the tooth ends and the unworn part starts. Reducing that 'step' a bit with a file can often free it up.
     
  5. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    How do the associated pinions look? Curious wear.

     
  6. Watch2546

    Watch2546 New Member

    May 18, 2017
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    Thanks for the great advice. I think I will leave it alone and reassemble. See how it runs then.

    - - - Updated - - -

    The pinions don't look that bad.
    I was expecting to see wear but nothing obviuos.
     
  7. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
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    This wear is pretty typical I see it all the time. You can flip the wheel over and use the other side of the teeth and you'll be good to go. Takes a little time to re-rivet the click and remount the click spring. Do not leave this like this. Sooner or later it will break free and then you'll really have a mess. If you can't do this. Message me.
     
  8. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    It isn't likely to 'break free' anytime soon or perhaps never so long as the wheel engages the pinion at the proper depth. The wear is mostly on the contact face of the teeth, not the tips. It took over a hundred years to wear this much and in another hundred there will still likely be enough left to keep on running. If the concern is that the teeth are 'weakened' by the wear then flipping the wheel won't add any strength, it will just continue to accumulate wear and metal loss. From an operational point its more a concern about friction if the lantern trundle 'pockets' or binds where the worn surface meets the unworn. That's mostly a concern when the second arbor is bushed closing the space between wheel and pinion. If the plan is to leave it as is, I suggest assembling just the main wheel and second wheel alone and evaluate how smoothly they run. If there is any interference one should be able to 'feel' the griping as each trundle passes the deepest engagement point. At some point one may want to address this wear as part of a total restoration, or just for esthetics, but I see no reason for alarm about any imminent catastrophic failure. If the 1st and 2nd wheels run smoothly it should be fine. If you bush either arbor check carefully for any signs of binding which can be relieved by re-profiling the teeth or flipping or replacing the wheel as one is able.

    RC
     
  9. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I believe I would planish the wheel and see if I could restore most of the damage that way.
     
  10. wow

    wow Registered User
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    I would leave it alone too. It took about 100 years to wear it that much. Not worth the effort. I've seen much worse.
     
  11. THTanner

    THTanner Registered User
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    Would you not at least smooth and polish the rough edges? I always at least clean up little burrs if for no other reason than to keep them from dislodging and ending up who knows where later on.

     
  12. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    They won't dislodge. RC explained the issue perfectly.
    Willie X
     
  13. R&A

    R&A Registered User

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    Sorry I would not leave this like this. And it's not that hard to flip the wheel over. Proper depth is the problem. And I haven't seen it repeat it's self when properly bushed and the wheel flip over. The winding arbor and the second wheel bushing (if replaced) will correct the contact points that are wearing don't you think. I guess it's a difference of opinion at this point. Myself in my shop it would have to be bushed and the first wheel flipped over. And I have seen these allot worst than this and still run. But with my name on it, as so be so. You made some good points. The wear like you said will continue. At what point will it brake loose? And they do. Blandishing to me just weaken the teeth< is this your point for re-profiling Blandishing the teeth. I am learning all the time I from far know all aspects.
    Thank you
     
  14. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    How do you planish a clock wheel like this, and what does it do to cure its ills?

    It probably sounds like I don't know what planishing actually is. Well, I don't. What is it, and should I have been doing it all along?

    M Kinsler

    planished into thin air
     
  15. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User
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    In a case like this there are two kinds of "wear" or tooth damage. One is where the pinion slides against the tooth scrapping away metal that's lost forever. This happens more rapidly when the wheel and pinion are not run at the correct depth due to worn pivot holes. Another sort of "wear" where after many years repeated pressure the pinion trundles sort of just push the metal out of the way leaving a depression. Planishing is basically a hammering process used to force metal into the worn or deformed area(s). It does not create new metal, just rearranges what you have. The process can sometimes restore the shape of a tooth but it may be thinner as well. After the planishing you need to carefully re-profile the tooth so it runs properly with the pinion in this case you would have a lot of teeth to reshape and if you didn't get them all even there would be nothing gained. At least the teeth are now fairly uniform even if their worn profile is troubling to some.


    RC
     
  16. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yes, planishing is basically just glancing light blows with a hammer, to force more brass into the worn areas. It can have pretty amazing success, and like RC mentioned, you can re-profile the teeth after the planishing is complete. The procedure it to place the wheel on a flat metal surface and tap with the hammer from the center of the teeth toward the worn parts. Be sure to use glancing blows, and not too aggressive.
     
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