Ansonia pendulum clock striking too early

[Brewerpaul]

Hi all-- I'm a total amateur at this. We have an old mantel clock with an Ansonia pendulum movement*, marked 6 1/2. It got out of whack when we moved 6 years ago, but I was able to get the time and strike sides working well with one of Steven Conover's excellent books and some email help from him.
A year or so I was doing something to the movement (I forget what) and I stupidly did not restrain the strike spring which erupted and naturally the strike no longer worked.
I've started to resuscitate it and have it ALMOST working right. The movement warns, and then strikes, but it does those too early. It warns about 10 minutes before the hour and strikes about 6 minutes early, which is too much to ignore. The minute hand is on a square shaft so I can't just move it a little to fix it.
From what I've been able to find, it seems that adjusting the J-hook is what I need to do, but this isn't a simple J. Attached to the part that contacts the "cam" on the center arbor is a brass piece which is what actually contacts the cam. I can't simply open or close the "J" to adjust when the strike occurs.
Any and all suggestions are welcome.

*According to a photo Mr.Conover sent me of this movement, it's an "8 day time and strike shelf cottage" movement.

 

[tracerjack]

If the J hook can’t be altered, the only other thing I can think of is removing the center cam and repositioning in relation to the minute hand. But without knowing which movement you have, my suggestion is just a shot in the dark. I think a photo of the movement is going to be necessary to get you any helpful advice.

 

[shutterbug]

Yeah we need to see that center shaft and the lift wire (J hook)

 

[Brewerpaul]

If the J hook can’t be altered, the only other thing I can think of is removing the center cam and repositioning in relation to the minute hand. But without knowing which movement you have, my suggestion is just a shot in the dark. I think a photo of the movement is going to be necessary to get you any helpful advice.

Well poop. My phone updated and now the pictures I just took are in HEIC format, and for some reason I can't upload them. I need to figure that out.
Barring a picture of my own movement, mine looks as near as I can tell, just like this reproduction movement. I'd considered using one of these to replace my antique movement.

Kitchen Clock Replacement Movement

Kitchen Clock Replacement Movement Replacement movement made in India for the USA made time strike movements commonly found in Kitchen clocks. Not only Kitchen clocks but also Ginger bread clocks and steeple clocks as well.

www.clockworks.com

Note that what I'm calling a "cam" isn't really a cam. It's just a little piece of bent wire attached to the main shaft/arbor and this is what lifts the J hook. Therefore it can't be removed and repositioned.

 

[Brewerpaul]

Turned off HEIC on my phone, so here's a picture of the J (lift) wire with that attached brass curved plate. I've lifted it in the picture so you can see it more easily. To the left of that you can see the main shaft/arbor with the little L shaped wire that lifts the J wire. I hope this helps.

 

[tracerjack]

I don’t see anything stopping you from bending the J wire.

 

[Willie X]

That "little brass plate', could you clarify what that is? Willie X

 

[tracerjack]

The photo is blurry, so is that curved brass plate in line with the tip of the J-hook actually attached to the tip?

 

[Brewerpaul]

The photo is blurry, so is that curved brass plate in line with the tip of the J-hook actually attached to the tip?

Yes, it's actually soldered to the J-hook. I think the wire on the main shaft rides on that instead of just on the bare J-hook.
Assuming I CAN bend the J-hook, where on the hook or wire should I bend it, and in which direction to make the clock warn and strike a few minutes LATER?

 

[wow]

Turn the minute hand till it is straight up (12). Now bend the J wire until the tip of it barely passes the lift wire . That should be very close.

 

[tracerjack]

Here is an article on how to adjust the J- wire, bending the shaft, and not the curve. Adjusting J-wire strike. Whenever I see solder, I have my doubts. I’ve never seen a movement with a soldered brass tip, but I haven’t seen everything. I guess since it isn’t broken, just adjust the hook according to the article.

 

[Brewerpaul]

Here is an article on how to adjust the J- wire, bending the shaft, and not the curve. Adjusting J-wire strike. Whenever I see solder, I have my doubts. I’ve never seen a movement with a soldered brass tip, but I haven’t seen everything. I guess since it isn’t broken, just adjust the hook according to the article.

Thanks! That looks very promising and I'll give it a try later today.
Learning about these clocks has been fascinating. They're kind of "steampunk" in their complex simplicity. Quite ingenious.

 

[Willie X]

It would probably be best to disassemble the clock and remove that brass contraption. Clean off the solder, then readjust everything with just the hand shaft, minute hand, 'J ' hook, and maybe a couple of other parts installed.
Willie X

 

[Brewerpaul]

It would probably be best to disassemble the clock and remove that brass contraption. Clean off the solder, then readjust everything with just the hand shaft, minute hand, 'J ' hook, and maybe a couple of other parts installed.
Willie X

It may be best but disassembling the clock is not something I want to tackle. Before I ran into this problem, the clock worked just fine with the brass doodad.

 

[R. Croswell]

I agree that it would probably be best to disassemble the clock, but before removing the "the soldered-on brass contraption", please let us see some better pictures of that part. Like Tracerjack, whenever I see solder, I have my doubts. I have a feeling that someone soldered that part on because something else broke. It probably won't work at all after that part is removed, but if you do as Willie suggested (install just the center arbor and strike control parts) it should become clearer what the original problem was and the proper way to fix it.

RC

 

[R. Croswell]

It may be best but disassembling the clock is not something I want to tackle. Before I ran into this problem, the clock worked just fine with the brass doodad.

That being the case, then something probably got damager or bent when the spring exploded. The 2nd time taking it apart will be easier andgood practice. I'm sure you know all about restraining the mainsprings now.

RC

 

[shutterbug]

That extra piece was evidently added as a band-aide for another problem. I think it's confusing the issue, and agree with the counsel to remove it.

 

[tracerjack]

Putting to rights would be the best, but since the OP doesn't want to tear it down, adjusting the J-wire will probably solve the problem of it striking early. It can most likely be fixed later. That's what I love about mechanical clocks.

 

[shutterbug]

Yes, tightening the bend of the J will make it release later. But the early release is probably caused by the extra piece. Since tightening the bend seems counter-intuitive to some, maybe the piece was added in an attempt to make it release later, and just made it worse.

 

[Brewerpaul]

One other piece of data... about 8-10 years ago we got the clock from family and it was not in running condition. We had it professionally overhauled including new bushings, etc. I have no idea if that brass piece was on the J-hook as I never looked inside the clock. We got it back from the clockmaker and it worked perfectly. 6 years ago we moved the clock from upstate NY to here in Maryland. Careful though we were in moving it by hand in my own car, it didn't run when we got it here. That's when I became an amateur clockmaker ;-). After much tinkering and learning, I got it working well for a while. The time was still fine, but the strike wasn't working well. I tinkered a bit and that's when I had the strike spring explosion :-{ .
The spring was all up amongst the levers and gears and a number of the gear arbors had come out of the plates. I got those back, but decided to live with only the time side working. Lately, I got curious and started fixing the strike.
Using the information in the file Tracerjack sent me, I adjusted the J-wire and the strike did indeed occur closer to the hour. I started working the minute hand around to get the clock to the correct time, wanting to just let it run for 12 full hours to make sure it was striking correctly. After moving it a couple of hours (waiting each strike to finish) I got resistance to the minute hand as it got to the warning time*. I didn't force it. This morning in good daylight I could see that the tip of the J-wire had hung up on the main arbor cam. I backed off my previous correction a bit and now,nearly 8 hours later, all is well.
*well, almost all... the warning is going off about 11 minutes too early. I can live with that and am afraid to start monkeying around with the various levers again!
Why is a warning needed at all? Why not have clocks go right into strike mode?

 

[R. Croswell]

One other piece of data... about 8-10 years ago we got the clock from family and it was not in running condition. We had it professionally overhauled including new bushings, etc. I have no idea if that brass piece was on the J-hook as I never looked inside the clock. We got it back from the clockmaker and it worked perfectly. 6 years ago we moved the clock from upstate NY to here in Maryland. Careful though we were in moving it by hand in my own car, it didn't run when we got it here. That's when I became an amateur clockmaker ;-). After much tinkering and learning, I got it working well for a while. The time was still fine, but the strike wasn't working well. I tinkered a bit and that's when I had the strike spring explosion :-{ .
The spring was all up amongst the levers and gears and a number of the gear arbors had come out of the plates. I got those back, but decided to live with only the time side working. Lately, I got curious and started fixing the strike.
Using the information in the file Tracerjack sent me, I adjusted the J-wire and the strike did indeed occur closer to the hour. I started working the minute hand around to get the clock to the correct time, wanting to just let it run for 12 full hours to make sure it was striking correctly. After moving it a couple of hours (waiting each strike to finish) I got resistance to the minute hand as it got to the warning time*. I didn't force it. This morning in good daylight I could see that the tip of the J-wire had hung up on the main arbor cam. I backed off my previous correction a bit and now,nearly 8 hours later, all is well.
*well, almost all... the warning is going off about 11 minutes too early. I can live with that and am afraid to start monkeying around with the various levers again!
Why is a warning needed at all? Why not have clocks go right into strike mode?

It isn't important how early the warning run begins as long as it is released at "12" to begin striking. The warning system system holds the strike train in readiness until a precise event happens (The "J" lever drops). Without it, it would be difficult to precisely start striking on the hour, and allow the striking to stop on the count. It provides the decoupling between the time and strike trains. The time train sends a message to the strike train that it is getting close to strike time so watch for the top of the hour, then the time train "disconnects" (the "J" lever drops) and control is passed over to the strike train.