Ansonia Open Esc pivot polishing problem?

Jeff C

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Anyone have any suggestions as to how I can polish this pivot? I have a hand burnisher but its just too hard to get at. I would normally put the arbor in my lathe and polish it that way but as you can see from the picture this is difficult.
 

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Scottie-TX

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Other than removing the crutch and collar from the arbor - I see very few options other than doing it by hand, which I would.
 

Hayson

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If it just needs polishing rather than being made true "in the round", I would chuck up a short piece of 1/4" fine craytex (I think it's known as Garyflex in the US) in the 3-jaw and press the pivot into the centre of it while the lathe is spinning. Finding centre is the same process as when repivoting. I do this frquently on jobs like this and it works well.
 

Scottie-TX

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From the looks of the excellent picture, appears it may need slightly more than light dressing and polishing. Otherwise, I woulda recommended 2500 grit wet 'n dry followed by Dreml. However it looks like it may be a tad beyond that.
 

Hayson

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Start with coarse cratex and work your way to fine when most of the scars are removed. It works fast.
 

Hayson

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Jeff I don't know for sure as I'm not from the US but I think it's GARYFLEX in your part of the world. If you Google Cratex you'll find out what it is and I'm sure engineering supply houses and so on will stock it.
 

shutterbug

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I'd be tempted to repivot it. Dress and polish the pivot before insertion. That would be the easiest way that I can think of. Share with us what you find on that greyflex idea. I'd like to know what it is and the procedure for using it :)
 

Hayson

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Unless you can repivot in 10 minutes I think my way may be more efficient. Even if the pallet bridge needs rebushing to take up the slack it's still faster, however I don't mind in the least if it is repivoted:)Depends on whether you want perfection or near enough that works well. What I would like to know is why some cack handed fool took to the pivot with end cutters or pliers, because that sure as heck isn't normal wear and tear.
 
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R&A

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Try to repivot and be done with it.Looks like the shoulder is in need of some polishing too.All the time you take researching an easier way to do this, you would have it done.And the dremel ,no I don't think so. If you tackle this and drill a new pivot, you'll have the experience for the next time.Allot of repairs,for most any repairman is from doing.Chuck up a piece of round stock and practice before you take on the actual piece from the clock. Build up your confidence and your knowledge, so when your out collecting ,your knowledge will help you buy clocks that would on the other hand be left alone by somebody with less experience. Good luck dive in with both feet,and get them wet.

H/C
 

harold bain

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Unless you can repivot in 10 minutes I think my way may be more efficient. Even if the pallet bridge needs rebushing to take up the slack it's still faster, however I don't mind in the least if it is repivoted:)Depends on whether you want perfection or near enough that works well. What I would like to know is why some cack handed fool took to the pivot with end cutters or pliers, because that sure as heck isn't normal wear and tear.
Hayson, it was likely the last repairman who wanted a mirror finish on this pivot, and chucked it to burnish it. You're right, a pivot that doesn't rotate shouldn't be scored like that from normal use.
 

R&A

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What did this guy do burnish it, with a pair of pliers and a punch.
 

Jeff C

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I am using this problem as a piece of education. I used my Dremel carefully after some use of a burnisher to re-create an acceptable shoulder. It looks ok, a little tapper that I don't like. As for the Garyflex I see they make some for a Dremel tool which I am going to get one to see how it works.

This is the current pic:
 

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Bob W

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Just out of curiosity is there a reason why you couldn't press out the arbor, polish/burnish and then reinstall it?

I am in the US and cratex is a valid brand name to search for, I have a lot of them.
 

Jeff C

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Just out of curiosity is there a reason why you couldn't press out the arbor, polish/burnish and then reinstall it?
I don't know how to do that with this particular piece. I have a crows foot but I'm not sure where to push it through from. It seems all that is exposed on the ends is the pivot.
 

Bryan Prindle

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Guys,

Not to be argumentative but if that was my part I would not use Cratex on the pivot. While I have a lot of the various Cratex wheels and think the stuff is great, it can be fairly aggressive in it's cutting and polishing. I just don't think it's suitable for this application. I'm pretty sure you'll just end up with a flat side.

Instead, I would suggest you do what I do and what others have recommended and use a felt wheel on your Dremel with brown tripili polishing compound. It'll put a real shine on those piviots.

In areas where it's too tight to use the face of the wheel, instead use the side of the wheel. It talkes a little personal training to learn how to handle the felt wheel but with practice you'll get better. :thumb:

Bryan
 

oldetymes

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MB folks - Craytex is the trade name in the U.S. as well and is readily available through MSC, etc. As you may know, it is a rubberized type of material, with different shapes and different sizes of the same shape permeated with sanding granules in a course, medium, fine, extra fine state. Works very nicely for cleaning rough surfaces, polishing brass and steel. I like the idea of inserting the Craytex in the 3 jaw. Though it seems to me, there would be a first step of creating, punching a slight "hole" in the Craytex prior to inserting the pivot to avoid uneven removal of the pivot's end or surface. Another method may be to use a filing block i.e. fitting up a filing block in the vice and filing by hand. I can't determine from the picture how well this would work with the open excapement, but I regularly use this method for pivots on American Strike levers, escapement pivots that are permanently affixed to the crutch, etc. which are pretty tight. Thus, should work.

Dave @ Olde Tymes
 

shutterbug

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Just out of curiosity is there a reason why you couldn't press out the arbor, polish/burnish and then reinstall it?
I was thinking that way too, Bob ..... but if he's reluctant to try re-pivoting it, I actually think that would be harder to do it that way.
 

Bob W

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Shut, you may be right; plus it may depend on tools available.

Others: There have been several comments on the 'polishing' of that pivot. Using cratex, dremel's etc may produce a surface that is shiny but it will not eliminate the grooves or other defects on the pivot. The clock may work but the pivot will not be as well repaired as expected or desired.

Bob
 

Jeff C

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I was thinking that way too, Bob ..... but if he's reluctant to try re-pivoting it, I actually think that would be harder to do it that way.
I mentioned I don't know how to remove the pieces from the arbor. I suppose I could have cut the pivot off punch that end off but I'm not sure of the other end.
 

Scottie-TX

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Looks to me JEFF from your picture, that crutch collet was staked to the arbor. See those two staking marks? So probably can be driven or pressed off. Grasp the anchor in one hand and the crutch in the other. Twist. I'll bet that crutch will even turn on the arbor under pressure. Often, that's how beat is set on Frenchies. Now I don't see any need for removing the anchor. Work could be performed with that in place.
 

harold bain

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Jeff, there is no reason it won't work as it is, so how far you want to go to make it better, is up to you and your ability. You may need a bushing.
 

shutterbug

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I mentioned I don't know how to remove the pieces from the arbor. I suppose I could have cut the pivot off punch that end off but I'm not sure of the other end.
Jeff, we recognize your apprehension, and believe me, we've all been there. Our goal is to help you past your present dilemma, as well as encourage you to reach out to the next step in your learning. Not trying to pressure or embarrass you in any way :) Time will teach you lots of interesting things, and you're wise to take it slow and at your own pace. The things we've mentioned here should be practiced and learned, but not necessarily on this movement :)
 

Scottie-TX

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Hey! It WILL work an' it'll work quite fine. Sometime in the future you'll revisit it with new knowledge and skills, and perhaps take it to the next step. That's called, "learning". I know of not one here who is not still learning! Well; O.K. Maybe one, but I wasn't including UTAH.
 

doc_fields

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I have a problem with your last pic of the pivot. It's barrel shaped, and the area next to the shoulder doesn't look that good. I've had pivots like this before that ended up causing me some call-backs. I would never let this one leave my shop until it was done right, therefore I agree with Heritage that you should re-pivot, but that may be beyond your means.

I also disagree with the use of craytex. By the previous definition of it, it contains sand or silica particles as the abrasive, and that is NOT good for the pivot, as particles of it can imbed within the steel and cause further grief down the road. This has been covered before here on the board, and Labounty has an excellent article on his website wherein a gentleman used an electron microscope viewing the pivots he did with various materials. Check it out.

I hate to be a naysayer on this topic, but I have learned by trial and error, and it has cost me going back out and installing brand new movements (Hermle and Urgos, and there was no charge to my customer for this) for my customers after messing up the previous by use of sandpaper (no matter how fine) and improper turning or dressing of pivots using hand methods when I should have used a lathe. Your pivot as I view it will most likely catch on the shoulder and stop the movement. The barrel shape will tend to work itself one way or the other within the pivot hole or bushing (endshake), and will stop at the most inopportune times with no rhyme or reason, which will only add to your frustration. Do it right the first time........................doc
 

Scottie-TX

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Agreed! AMEN. Perhaps I should not have assumed this was his clock and not a customer's. I have no customers because I'm not in business. If this belonged to a customer and I couldn't do it - I'd simply send it to LAB and KNOW it's right. For me, that would be the case here.
 

doc_fields

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I guess I would add in retrospect this little thought. The escape wheel is the last wheel in the time train, therefore getting the least amount of power in the train (thus, easily stoppable). The verge is not a wheel, but as the very last part of the train, it is handling a lot of weight, in essence, trying to transmit the impulse through the crutch to the pendulum. Therefore, because of these two considerations, both escape wheel and verge need to be "right", with proper pivots, endshake,and bushings. Anything less, I believe, invites furtherance of a problem and frustration in the repair. That's why I insist on approaching any repair with a proper method; anything less and you end up compensating with endless adjustments, assemble and disassemble numerous times, etc.,etc., ad nauseum. FWIW.................doc
 

R&A

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I think there will come a TIME when the money you make from your repairs and buying clocks will separate you thoughts.If you want to be able to do better repairs ,you will need more equipment.So instead of buying more clocks with the money, you will have to invest in more tools and better equipment.It can only get better.And if you can't fix it, let it set till you can.

H/C
 

Hayson

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If the question at the start of the thread had been different so would my reply. The problem with the board, as I have said before, is that it attempts to cater to everyone from newbies to experts. From the "near enough is good enough" brigade, to the "only the very best will do" people. I have in the past been criticised for insisting on a high grade of repair that was beyond the skills of hobbyists. On this occassion I'm copping flak for the opposite reason. Which is it to be guys? :)
 

Tunderer

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I doubt what you see is wear. Look closely and you may see that it is actually factory tool marks your looking at. I just finished a clock like this, and it looked exactly like yours. It ran for years and had not worn the pivot holes so I left it alone and reassembled the clock. It runs just fine.

If it is cutting the pivot hole like a rat tail file by all means polish it up.

I think we some times get carried away assuming that in the "old days" everything was made perfect.

ah
 

Scottie-TX

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HAYS: I understand your comment and can only observe that it's human nature - that each and every one approaches a challenge in their own way and counsels in that way. Counselling an expert and counseling a newbie is a challenge - sort of like a streetwalkier working both sides of th' street. Ya know? I simply try my best - weigh the topic and who posted it - an' let th' chips fall where they may. We can't be all things to all people.
Th' ol' philosopher.
 

Jeff C

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Well I have completed my project. By the way this is my clock which I had for several years now just waiting for some repairs in my spare time.

Thanks for all the advice I have been given I learned quite allot from this exercise.

This what I decided to do once and for all. I removed both collars using a crowfoot tool and a punch which I tailored a bit to fit over the pivot to punch the arbor out of the collar. I chucked the collar in my lathe and cut off the bad pivot, smoothed the remaining surface then softened the steel. I then took my notes from a previous exercise I had with Jeff Hamilton on drilling by hand the dead center and creating the hole for the new pivot. Tapped in a new pivot which was a bit long then cut it to size using the lathe. I then burnished the pivot and re hardened the steel. I put a new bushing in the little bridge the anchor side pivot went into, cleaned it up. Put the clock all back together and its running like never before, nice healthy swing now, steady escapewheel.

Sorry If I may have driven this topic in different ways. I always find it a bit hard to properly communicate your thoughts as you really are trying to on these MB's :)
 

doc_fields

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Congratulations are in order then! Job well done!..................doc
 

harold bain

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Good job, Jeff. Tunderer could be right, that it came from the factory like that, and ran just fine for a hundred years or so (or gave problems for a hundred years). But it is much better now for the work you put into it.
 

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