Ansonia Crystal Regulator Mystery (too fast)

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by spxer, Mar 11, 2019.

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  1. spxer

    spxer Registered User

    Jun 20, 2016
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    I have an Ansonia Sirius Crystal Regulator that runs too fast. When I say too fast, I mean waay fast. Like 9 or 10 minutes an hour. The escape wheel is not skipping. I don't believe the movement has been changed. Everything fits together in an original fashion. I've owned the clock for 50 years, but I have never run it before DSCF0001.JPG DSCF0002.JPG . Any ideas or possible explanations?
     
  2. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    you've owned it for 50 years but never run it before... does that mean you just tried to run it after all this time and it runs fast?

    i would suspect that whatever oil was in it has long since dried up and/or filled with dust... and that it needs to be serviced before determining what's really going on. it might also have the wrong suspension spring...
     
  3. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    The gear that adjusts the chops (where you set the speed with a key through the front of the dial at the top) appears to be either bent or is missing parts. We need a better close up of that area on the back of the movement.
     
  4. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    I have owned the clock all this while, but I am just now servicing it. It runs very well!!! The rate adjust works as it should. The pendulum is almost to the floor of the clock, so there is no more lengthening of it.
     
  5. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    I just used the pendulum length calculator here on this site and it says I need more than a 2" longer pendulum! Something is very amiss with this clock.
     
  6. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    This clock has a visible escapement. Can you show us a video with the escapement in action? I still suspect skipping teeth. If this is not the case, the next suspicion would be that the movement was not made for this case but for one that fits a longer pendulum. A third option would be that somewhere in the movement there is a wheel or pinion slipping on its arbor. If this were the case I would expect the clock to gain more time when freshly wound and slow down after a few days of running.

    Uhralt
     
  7. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    I will take a video. My camera batteries just died, so it will be some hours before they recharge.
     
  8. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    I tend to agree with Uhrait. Something is skipping or perhaps loose. Assuming that the strike train is at rest during your photos, it looks like your Strike Train timing is off too as the hammer is at rest in the middle of it's lift while the gathering pallet has stopped while gathering a tooth on the rack. If the movement was in the process of striking, never mind...in any case, that would have no affect on the warp speed of the time train.

    Do you have much experience servicing Time and Strike movements such as this one?
     
  9. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    The strike hammer is at mid lift because I had not would the strike spring.
     
  10. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    Video at
     
  11. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Hmm, the escapement action looks pretty good. Good overswing. The ticking sounds sometimes a bit louder and sometimes a bit softer, indicating that the power to the escape wheel is not quite constant but I doubt this is the problem. If you are sure that the movement is original to the case and pendulum, there must be something slipping between the minute wheel and the escapement wheel. Check all those wheels and pinions closely.

    Uhralt
     
  12. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    I really can't believe that the movement has been switched.
    To the point of slipping pinions or wheels - it seems to me that a loose pinion or wheel on the shaft, once started to freewheel, would continue to do so until the spring power is exhausted. How could there be 9 minutes of slippage per hour? I have let the spring down to low wound level. I will see if that changes the rate.
     
  13. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    Same result with a low wind. 9 minutes per hour.
     
  14. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Maybe a pinion has lost o leaf (tooth)? Or, maybe a missing trundle in a lantern pinion. The clock may still be running if this is the case. An eight leaf pinion down to seven or an six leaf pinion down to five would cause a similar amount of running fast.

    Uhralt
     
  15. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    I have found the issue. Uhralt, you are sort of right. The wrong wheel has gotten into the movement! A further explanation is in order. It is a nearly 50 year story. I won't take 50 years to tell it.
     
  16. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    DSCF0005.JPG
    This is a photo of the clock the way I got it. Now the story.
    My dad was a clock man. He would travel far and wide for a clock. As a kid I would go along when I was out of school. On one of our trips we stopped at a roadside antique shop in Tennessee. Antique shops back then had lots of clocks. This shop had this one. It had been in a house fire. My dad didn't want any part of it, but I wanted to see what this mess of a clock could be. I was just a teenager then. I bought the clock.
     
  17. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    Back home from our trip, I disassembled the clock and began cleaning and polishing. It was rough. All the glass was broke. The dial was severely cracked and stained. I sent away for new glass to be ground and I found a dial. The original verge pallets were ruby and broken. I acquired a donor movement for the verge. The movement wasn't exactly the same, but who cares, right? Ha! Anyway it seems now that I must have got some of the wheels from one movement mixed into the other. At about that point my attention turned to other things as they sometimes do with young men and the clock was put aside until a few weeks ago. So now I will figure which wheels are correct and finish this long adventure.
     
  18. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Glad to bring back your memory! I hope you will find the correct wheel!

    Uhralt
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    I'm betting it will be a pinion difference rather than a wheel. Let us know ;)
     
  20. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    #20 Time After Time, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    Like most of us you know enough to get yourself into trouble it would seem. :chuckling:
    Do you have more identification information on the original movement? What model did the donor come out of?

    According to Hamilton's Clockmaker's Beat Book an Ansonia 8 Day Crystal Regulator has the following counts:
    Center Wheel = 24
    3rd Wheel = 58
    3rd Pinion = 8
    4th Wheel = 56
    4th Pinion = 8
    Escape Wheel = 30
    Escape Pinion = 7

    BPH should be 10440.00

    Just looking at your EW Action for a 30 second sample, you appear to be well below that rate.
     
  21. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    Those are not the counts I have. I counted the
    minute pinion at 15
    2nd = 64-10
    3rd = 60-8
    4th = 62-7 and 60-7 (two wheels)
    escape = 30-7 and 30-6 (two wheels)
    The 60-7 4th and the 30-7 escape wheel were in the movement
    I have installed the 30-6 escape wheel now, but it does not want to run. I am making adjustments.
     
  22. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    Okay, I think I've found your movement's counts
    Ctr Wheel 15
    3rd 60-8
    4th 60-7
    EW 30-6
    BPH 9642.86

    Your Donor Verge is set to run with the Donor's EW
     
  23. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    My adjustments are not working. It appeared to me the escape wheel pinion was not fully engaged with the 4th wheel. I have moved it closer 3 times. No better each time. I let it free wheel under power without the verge to listen to it. It has a bit of a rattly sound. Shouldn't it sound smooth?
     
  24. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    #24 Time After Time, Mar 12, 2019
    Last edited: Mar 12, 2019
    So the only donor part in your movement now is the Verge?
    Could you have possibly made any alterations to get the donor EW to fit into the gear train?
    It sounds like there may be a depth problem between the Escape and 4th Wheel. It really doesn't take much. As I recall, there is a cock for the inner pivot of the EW. Is that what you're adjusting? To answer your question, I think that for the most part the gears should "sound" smooth as they mesh. How does it feel if you manually power the 4th to drive the EW?

    Edit:
    The EW should definitely glide to a smooth, random stop.
     
  25. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    I do believe the only changed part is now the verge. The escape wheel is the same as before when it ran so well. The difference is a 6 leaf pinion vs a 7 leaf pinion.
    Yes, it is the inner escape wheel cock that I am closing into the 4th wheel.
    I will take it up again tomorrow. I appreciate all the assistance I have been getting.
     
  26. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    That's a smart move to stop when you're tired and to let things kind of sink in before you go further.
    The adjustment you're trying to make is tough to do by sight alone and you don't want to repeatedly bend the cock. I'm thinking it would be tricky to do even with a Depthing Tool since the cock is offset from the plane of the front plate and you're not really bushing the pivot hole.
    I would continue along the path you're on, making very slight adjustments and determining if the result is better, the same or worse. I would manually power the fourth wheel depending on feel, perhaps more than sound, to determine if I was adjusting to the proper depth. You'll feel a "roughness" to the gear mesh before you'll hear it I think.
    That's a beautiful clock. I've not seen this model before and you've done a great job restoring it. :thumb:
    Good luck getting gear depth set.
    Please keep us in the loop.
    Regards,
    Bruce
     
  27. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    The clock has been running on the test stand for a couple of hours now. It is very particular. With a 6 leaf pinion vs a 7 leaf pinion, there is quite a bit less leverage to the escape wheel. I had to make several adjustments to make it run. The depth adjustment was difficult. Too tight- too loose-too tight-too loose. Finally just right, maybe. Then it still just wouldn't run. I saw the pallets were not in the correct position radially. I heated the shellac and rotated them to what looked better. Now it won't escape at all. Play with the depth of the verge. There is one delicate spot that will escape. Too high, it locks. too low, it locks. It doesn't show the over swing I would like, but it is running. My concern is getting it back in the case without disturbing the setting. I will let it run on the stand for a good while first. Oh, and the minute hand is keeping time!
     
  28. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    I don't know what your experience level is with Brocot Escapements, but Escapements of any type can be very demanding when it comes to adjustments/repair/restoration.
    Another member by the screen name of PhilG4SPZ found these articles in "Horological Times" on the Brocot which are very informative. If you can take the time, I think they would be worth the read.
    Part 1 and Part 2
    Good luck with the completion of your project.
    Regards,
    Bruce
     
  29. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    How about another video of the escapement in action? We might be able to see what can be improved. Glad you got the timing corrected!

    Uhralt
     
  30. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    The clock seems to have picked up some enthusiasm after running overnight.
     
  31. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    Notice the double pivot hole punch?
     
  32. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    I've seen these movements demonstrate a healthy swing, but nothing over the top. I have one running now showing about a 1 inch swing measured at the rate nut. How wide is your clock's swing?

    The action looks pretty good to me. Nice job.

    What happened there? Is that how you found it?
     
  33. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    The double punch must have been done at the factory.
    About a 1 inch swing here also.
     
  34. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Looks and sounds pretty good! The ticking is even better, more even than previously. No more fading in and out. It seems your solved your problem!

    Uhralt
     
  35. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Could we see those pallets up close? That exit one looks odd.
     
  36. spxer

    spxer Registered User

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    DSCF0008.JPG When I got the verge it appeared the pallets had been replaced. They were attached with shellac and not swagged in as usual, plus they were too large in diameter. I ground them to (somewhat) match the originals.
     
  37. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    I had thought that the pallets looked less than half the diameter of the cylinder base. If they were too big, that would definitely cause your locking problems. Each pallet should occupy about 40% of the distance between Escape Wheel Teeth. Ruby/Jeweled pallets would look really nice on this clock. Regarding your current set up, to be nit-picky the entry pallet looks like it may be a little over rotated clockwise but with the performance you're getting, I'd probably leave it as is.
     
  38. TEACLOCKS

    TEACLOCKS Registered User
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    I you sure the min. hand is not falling down on the right side of the dial and then resuming rotation :???::???:?
     

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