Ansonia A movement crutch rod question

[R. Croswell]

What do you guys think of this?:
Silver Bearing Solder Paste

 

[stushug]

This one?

Stay-Brite Silver Solder

 

[stushug]

Contact Richard Cox at Fendley & Cox Antique Clocks

Done. Spoke with Richard yesterday.

 

[R. Croswell]

This one?

Stay-Brite Silver Solder

Probably ok. More important than what solder you use is your technique. Both parts must be freshly cleaned and free of all oxidation, and both parts must be raised to soldering temperature, nothing can move until the solder has set and cooled.

RC

 

[Dick Feldman]

The method of soldering is actually as important as the type of solder in this instance.
The first rule of soldering is clean, clean and clean. The second rule is to get everything hot enough.
If you are not familiar with soldering, why not send the hinge to the specialist with the movement?
To make that joint hold, it will probably be necessary to undo all that has been done and start over.
Best,
Dick

 

[Dick Feldman]

Soldering a hinge can be a tricky affair, even for someone with lots solder experience.
A common mistake is to have the solder bleed into the hinge itself and fuse the hinge.
That causes an additional problem to be solved.
A good way to mask solder (keep it from flowing into an unwanted area) is to paint the area with typing correction fluid.
That will contaminate the area and keep the solder from flowing in that area.
After the job is complete, the typing correction fluid can be scraped/cleaned off.
Misapplied heat can also easily crack the bezel glass. Best to remove the glass before soldering.
Dick

 

[stushug]

I just got the movement back from Richard Cox. He made a new escape wheel and cleaned up the pallets. I'd like an opinion on how everything looks and if it sounds in beat. Thanks guys!

 

[Willie X]

A little to much drop onto the entrance pallet. But that's an easy adjustment, just move the pallet saddle pin up a scosh. One 'scosh' would be about .004" or 1/10 mm. Willie X

 

[Willie X]

On a second look ... maybe two scosh ... or is it scoshes, or maybe scoshi? Anyway it's off a bit. Willie X

 

[stushug]

A little to much drop onto the entrance pallet. But that's an easy adjustment, just move the pallet saddle pin up a scosh. One 'scosh' would be about .004" or 1/10 mm. Willie X

That saddle is pretty tight. I don't think I have the tools/ability to move it that precisely. What is the best method of moving the saddle such a small amount accurately?

 

[Willie X]

I use a long skinny punch. Place it on the larger (end portion) of the dogbone and (while holding the punch in tension) tap it with a small hammer. A two ounce steel hammer works for me but a small hardwood block will do.

Be sure to block the train, where it can't move (tie one of the top wheels securely useing thin copper wire) and remove the pallet assembly before making the adjustment.

Or, it may be best to simply let down both springs and use finger pressure on the second or third wheel during the adjustment process. Take the pallet assembly off too, just playing it safe. You sure don't want an accident when your this close to finished!!!

Make one light tap, check, then two light taps, check, etc. etc.

You I can tape a piece of paper behind the doggone with a fine reference mark if you like. That visual might help, if you haven't done this before.

Wait a for others to tell you their approach to making this adjustment. I go for speed and no marks.

Willie X

 

[R. Croswell]

A little to much drop onto the entrance pallet. But that's an easy adjustment, just move the pallet saddle pin up a scosh. One 'scosh' would be about .004" or 1/10 mm. Willie X

I always wondered how much a scosh was, thanks!

Making small adjustments to the "dog bone" is always a problem, and it will likely take several tries to get it just right. When there is no hole under it and nothing to pry against (like this one), I get a good grip with flat nose pliers and while applying a little downward force to keep the pliers from slipping, just twist the pliers. Sometimes I use Willie's punch & tap method. Problem is that every clock is different so one never knows just how much force will be needed to cause it begin to move.

Be careful working around that new escape wheel!

RC

 

[stushug]

I'm a bit nervous about moving the pallet dog bone. What are the consequences of not moving it?

 

[Willie X]

Bad sound and increased wear. Also, you're not to far from having the E-wheel skip teeth, or spin free. Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

I like the amount of recoil you're getting from both pallets! If you're nervous about making the adjustment that Willie recommended, you can always let the power down from the main spring, pull off the verge and then adjust the pin position. That would be completely safe, and won't be something you can't adjust back if you go too far.

 

[stushug]

Here it is, I'm guessing about .007" closer to EW. Tell me it's good, guys!

 

[R. Croswell]

I'm a bit nervous about moving the pallet dog bone. What are the consequences of not moving it?

You have a right to be nervous. See picture (red arrow) you have very little lock. Locking on the tip of the pallet. Very close to slipping and spinning free and wrecking the escape wheel. But look at the blue arrow, looks like "the bone" itself is bent from previous adjustments (rivet did not move) any further bending of the bone without the rivet slipping could cause it to snap off - yes, I would be nervous.

RC


This is before the adjustment in post # 66

 

[R. Croswell]

Here it is, I'm guessing about .007" closer to EW. Tell me it's good, guys!

Much better lock. It is slightly out of beat.

RC

 

[stushug]

much better lock

You say better, does that mean it's good where it is, or do I need to go closer? Thanks.

 

[stushug]

You have a right to be nervous. See picture (red arrow) you have very little lock. Locking on the tip of the pallet. Very close to slipping and spinning free and wrecking the escape wheel. But look at the blue arrow, looks like "the bone" itself is bent from previous adjustments (rivet did not move) any further bending of the bone without the rivet slipping could cause it to snap off - yes, I would be nervous.

RC

View attachment 760648
This is before the adjustment in post # 66

This clock is another Frankenstein. It sure has been a learning experience. I'm fixing this for a good friend that's in his 80's and doesn't have the skills/tools to do it himself. He has come up with "clever" fixes on other clocks over the last few years though, and they have run, even though I can't explain how. I have no idea how the bone became bent, it was like that when I started with it.

 

[shutterbug]

It looks good to me now. The skipping danger is gone.

 

[stushug]

Ok, guys. It's going back into the case to get the beat set again, and get rated.
I'm trying to figure out the beats per hour so I can use my Timetrax 185 for rating.
The great wheel=84T
The second wheel=80T, 7PT
The third wheel=72T, 6PT
EW=40T, 7PT
BPH=(80x72x2x40) / (6x7)=460,800 / 42=10,971 BPH
Does that look correct?

 

[R. Croswell]

You say better, does that mean it's good where it is, or do I need to go closer? Thanks.

It looks like it should run "safely" and reliably. The beats seem to be consistent with the new ew, so I would say maybe pretty good, not perfect but pretty good. I think I would play with tilting it slightly left or right to see if it is possible to get a more even sound. If so, adjust the crutch slightly to improve the beat. If you move the dog bone a bit more you might get closer to perfect but you are getting close to the point where it will lock up, and then you would have to adjust pallet spacing and so on. You really should not demand perfection from this type of clock, its just a matter of how close you want to get and how much time you want to spend getting there. Your friend will never know that it isn't perfect and will be delighted that it runs and keeps time so..........

RC

 

[Willie X]

Well ... my hat's off to you for sticking to the job until it was done. Many people just drop out on jobs like this, or do some half-ass repair. They never get the satisfaction of a job well done. Willie X

 

[stushug]

Much better lock. It is slightly out of beat.

RC

View attachment 760650

I wasn't that concerned with the beat on the stand, I will get it better when it's in the case.

 

[stushug]

Well ... my hat's off to you for sticking to the job until it was done. Many people just drop out on jobs like this, or do some half-ass repair. They never get the satisfaction of a job well done. Willie X

Thanks Willie. I refuse to let let an inanimate object defeat me, and I can't stand half-ass work, especially when I have the awesome guidance you guys have given me. I would have been letting all of us down by not getting it right.

 

[R. Croswell]

Ok, guys. It's going back into the case to get the beat set again, and get rated.
I'm trying to figure out the beats per hour so I can use my Timetrax 185 for rating.
The great wheel=84T
The second wheel=80T, 7PT
The third wheel=72T, 6PT
EW=40T, 7PT
BPH=(80x72x2x40) / (6x7)=460,800 / 42=10,971 BPH
Does that look correct?

No, the great wheel and second wheel are not part of the equation, the center wheel is. You count everything between the center wheel and the escape wheel, including the center and escape wheels. The great wheel and second wheel are part of power delivery but not part of the time keeping equation. There are several spread sheets that will calculate this for you.

 

[stushug]

No, the great wheel and second wheel are not part of the equation, the center wheel is. You count everything between the center wheel and the escape wheel, including the center and escape wheels. The great wheel and second wheel are part of power delivery but not part of the time keeping equation. There are several spread sheets that will calculate this for you.

Is the center wheel the wheel that the hour cannon is on?

 

[stushug]

Much better lock. It is slightly out of beat.

RC

View attachment 760650

What software gave you that readout? Can I get that using my Timetrax 185?

 

[stushug]

Here's a picture of the movement with the wheels I'm sure of labeled. Can someone label the last ones so I'm sure of which ones to count for the BPH? Hopefully, this will get me to the end.

 

[Willie X]

Just hang it on th wall, without the dial but with the hands.

Set the beat/time and let er run. When you hear it strike take a glance at your phone (or atomic clock) and adjust as necessary.
Initially, I don't make an adjustment until it's two minutes out.

All clocks need to run for a couple of weeks after any repair, So, I always do the rating along with the test run. It only takes a few seconds per adjustment, much faster and more dependable than using a counter.

Note, you can expect an old spring driven clock to gain a bit when first wound, so disregard the first day or two, if it's running a little fast.

Week to week, making tiny adjustments is the only good way to fine rate a clock but this is best done at its home by its owner. Why (?) because it takes a month or more (if you do it) and when you move it, the time you spent is often wasted.

Willie X

 

[stushug]

I'd still like to learn which wheels are which, it will give me a better understanding of how to identify each wheel and compute BPH formulas. More knowledge is always a good thing!

 

[stushug]

Just hang it on th wall, without the dial but with the hands.

Set the beat/time and let er run. When you hear it strike take a glance at your phone (or atomic clock) and adjust as necessary.
Initially, I don't make an adjustment until it's two minutes out.

All clocks need to run for a couple of weeks after any repair, So, I always do the rating along with the test run. It only takes a few seconds per adjustment, much faster and more dependable than using a counter.

Note, you can expect an old spring driven clock to gain a bit when first wound, so disregard the first day or two, if it's running a little fast.

Week to week, making tiny adjustments is the only good way to fine rate a clock but this is best done at its home by its owner. Why (?) because it takes a month or more (if you do it) and when you move it, the time you spent is often wasted.

Willie X

Thanks Willie, that's pretty much how I've been rating clocks. It's good to know that I've been on the right track!

 

[R. Croswell]

Here's a picture of the movement with the wheels I'm sure of labeled. Can someone label the last ones so I'm sure of which ones to count for the BPH? Hopefully, this will get me to the end.

View attachment 760672

This looks like a 30-hour (1-day) movement, so it has fewer gears. There are two basic going train designs, one has the center wheel included in the power delivery train (not this one), and one the center wheel is not part of the power train but just rides along with one of the gears that is (this one is that type). Note that the GW wheel powers the 2nd wheel and the center wheel powers the 3rd wheel and the center wheel also connects with the 3rd wheel and just goes along for the ride and powers nothing except the hands. The numbers are not important, in a 1-day clock the EW is typically the 4th wheel, in an 8-day clock the EW is typically the 5th wheel.

So in this clock you are concerned with the center wheel, 3rd wheel, escape wheel, and the 3rd pinion, 4th pinion.

((CTR x 3W x EW) / (3P x 4P)) x 2

In other words, multiply all the related wheels together, then multiply all the related pinions together, then divide the product of the wheels by the product of the pinions and multiply the answer by 2. If you have a timetrax, microset, or other rate counter, do your initial setup to this number. If your device has an average function us it. There are lots of things that affect the exact rate of the clock, so your final adjustment will be made by watching how the clock keeps time over a couple weeks. I believe someone said that but it is worth repeating.

Its getting late so I hope I got all this right.
RC

 

[stushug]

RC,
Looks like you are right on. After counting the teeth and pinions as you labeled them, and using both a calculator and the spreadsheet you listed above, I got 5485.7 BPH for this movement. This also agrees with the numbers in my Timetrax book. I thought that was the number earlier, but until you showed my which wheels to use I wasn't sure. At this moment, the clock lost approx. 15 minutes over the last 20 hours. I will connect the counter and see what it reads, just for a reference to see how much to raise the weight.

 

[shutterbug]

When making adjustments, go in small increments over a long period of time. If you have to go back and forth between too fast and too slow, you'll be chasing that critter for a long time.

 

[stushug]

I've noticed when setting the time, the minute hand is very loose on the arbor. It's like the square hole is too big, either by it being a replacement of the wrong size or just worn from so many years of use. Is there a simple way to close up that hole? I was thinking of peening around it or adding some solder to the hand and closing it up then fitting it to the arbor. Right now I can move the hand about the equivalent of two minutes without the arbor moving. Not crucial but annoying.

 

[R. Croswell]

I've noticed when setting the time, the minute hand is very loose on the arbor. It's like the square hole is too big, either by it being a replacement of the wrong size or just worn from so many years of use. Is there a simple way to close up that hole? I was thinking of peening around it or adding some solder to the hand and closing it up then fitting it to the arbor. Right now I can move the hand about the equivalent of two minutes without the arbor moving. Not crucial but annoying.

If it is really annoying, you can peen or pinch around the edges of the hole to close it.

RC

 

[stushug]

If it is really annoying, you can peen or pinch around the edges of the hole to close it.

RC

Peened it, filed it a bit, and now the slop is gone!!