Ansonia A movement crutch rod question

[stushug]

I posted about a year ago about this movement. I have a new question about it today. How much free play should there be between the the pendulum hanger rod and the loop in the bottom of the crutch rod? I attached a picture with the loop circled. Sorry for the lousy picture, I don't have the clock here to take a clearer shot.
BTW, that picture is from my original post, before I replaced the hanger rod.

 

[Vernon]

Just enough free play so that it doesn't bind.

Vernon

 

[Dave T]

In my thinking a "side swinger" like that takes a little more opening than one that hangs straight from the center.

 

[Willie X]

A grocery bag is about 6 thou or .15mm. that's about right but a little extra 'knock' won't hurt a thing. Willie X

 

[stushug]

Also, one side of the bottom "loop" has worn to be much thinner than the other side. Is there a simple way to replace the crutch rod and still use the original verge if the need comes about?

 

[Willie X]

It's probably made that way. On old American clocks, the crutch wire was carefully tapered to less than half the full diameter. Photo?? Willie X

 

[stushug]

I'll try to get a photo. Thanks Willie!

 

[stushug]

A grocery bag is about 6 thou or .15mm. that's about right but a little extra 'knock' won't hurt a thing. Willie X

I assume you mean a paper bag, correct?

 

[Willie X]

Yes, an old timey paper bag. A folded bit of common copy paper will be about the same. Check both extremes, front and back, often the space is tapered and it shouldn't be. Willie X

 

[stushug]

Thanks Willie, that's exactly the details I needed!

 

[stushug]

New question for this clock. The frame that holds the front glass has on hinge attached to it. It has broken free, and I need to re-attach it. It looks to have been brazed on originally. I don't have brazing equipment. What would be my best course of action for a quality repair? I was thinking of maybe using JB Weld, but that seems kind of sloppy and unoriginal. What tools and materials would I need to be able to braze it myself? If not, I'll have to send it out to have it brazed. By the way, the frame measures 13" so the repair would have to be strong. Thanks in advance!

 

[stushug]

Yes, an old timey paper bag. A folded bit of common copy paper will be about the same. Check both extremes, front and back, often the space is tapered and it shouldn't be. Willie X

I saw the clock today, and I checked the crutch foot as you suggested, I think it looks ok.

 

[Willie X]

Back in #11. It's soldered. Brazing is out of the question. Willie X

 

[stushug]

Back in #11. It's soldered. Brazing is out of the question. Willie X

I guess I can solder it with a torch, just being careful to not overheat. Correct?

 

[Willie X]

A large soldering iron is best for this particular job, 125 watts is good. Clean the joint surfaces with a knife and a stiff SS buush. Use a liquid acid flux and when cool rinse with water, with a little sodium bicarbonate added. Finish with compressed air, a little heat, and then a little oil. This treatment will keep the job from corroding over time. Willie X

 

[stushug]

Thanks Willie!

 

[shutterbug]

Remember that you will apply the heat to the bezel, not the hinge.

 

[stushug]

I finally had a chance to return the glass cover to my buddy and installed it on his clock. This movement had been giving me trouble, stopping for no reason after I had cleaned it and replaced a few bushings. It's been running fine now for about 2 months, but I took a video of the escapement for you guys to check out. I just wanted an opinion on how it looks to the experts. Thanks everyone!

 

[R. Croswell]

I would say the drop off of the exit pallet (onto the entrance pallet) is excessive. Moving the verge a bit closer to the escape wheel should help even things out. Some of the escape wheel teeth look like the tips are curved.

RC

 

[stushug]

I would say the drop off of the exit pallet (onto the entrance pallet) is excessive. Moving the verge a bit closer to the escape wheel should help even things out. Some of the escape wheel teeth look like the tips are curved.

RC

I had a feeling it was a bit off, thanks for the suggestion RC! I'll go over the EW teeth as well.

 

[Vernon]

The ew. bush seems a tad loose too which could cause some of the erratic behavior.
Vernon

 

[shutterbug]

Yes, the teeth of the EW are hooked. That will cause issues with the beat.

 

[stushug]

I just picked up the movement from my friend's house. I tried to straighten the teeth, and now the EW gets locked on the entrance and exit pallets on certain teeth and won't continue running. I think my EW teeth work leaves a lot to be desired. What is my next best step? I included a picture, I hope it helps.

 

[shutterbug]

They still look hooked. Get a small, smooth jawed plier. Line up one jaw flat on the straight edge of the tooth, squeeze lightly and pull the pliers straight away from the wheel. If they still lock, move your verge away from the wheel a little bit further and test.

 

[stushug]

They still look hooked. Get a small, smooth jawed plier. Line up one jaw flat on the straight edge of the tooth, squeeze lightly and pull the pliers straight away from the wheel. If they still lock, move your verge away from the wheel a little bit further and test.

Just to confirm, the arrow is pointing to the straight edge, correct?

 

[stushug]

I straightened all of the teeth, but as soon as they make contact with the verge, they bend again. I straightened them 3 times and this is what they look like again. The black mark is just something I made for reference. Is this EW beyond repair? Are there replacements if needed?

 

[Willie X]

It probably wasn't, but probably is now. Willie X

 

[stushug]

It probably wasn't, but probably is now. Willie X

What can I do to get the movement running again? Are there replacement EW's? Other options?

 

[R. Croswell]

www.timesavers.com has a good selection of escape wheels but will need one that is the same diameter and with the same number of teeth. You will need to remove your old escape wheel from its hub and mount this on. There is a good possibility that the hole in the new EW won't be the same size. You may need to adjust the pallet spacing a little and adjust the verge position. This replacement looks simple but can get complicated.

You need to be careful not to do whatever bent the teeth in the original escape wheel. Some common possibilities are attempting to adjust the verge depth without letting down the mainspring (causing the EW to spin rapidly, them scrapping the pallets as the verge is moved in, and forcing the verge to bottom between teeth causing them to bend.

RC

 

[stushug]

I count 40 teeth, and my calipers measure the OD @ 33.82mm. I'm assuming that when new, the OD would have been 34mm. The closest match I could find on Timesavers is a 40T wheel that is only 32mm. I'm not sure if the smaller diameter is going to work. The only 34mm EW's I saw had 42 or 48 teeth.

 

[R. Croswell]

I count 40 teeth, and my calipers measure the OD @ 33.82mm. I'm assuming that when new, the OD would have been 34mm. The closest match I could find on Timesavers is a 40T wheel that is only 32mm. I'm not sure if the smaller diameter is going to work. The only 34mm EW's I saw had 42 or 48 teeth.

View attachment 758655

The critical thing is that it has the correct number of teeth. If the OD is a bit less it should still work, but you will need to change the distance between the pallets to span the same number of teeth and have equal locks and drops. You my need to trim the end of the entrance pallet to accomplish this without messing up the lift angle at the exit pallet. (if you close the space between the pallets by simply bending the exit pallet you will change the lift angle) It is also critical that you center the new EW on the arbor so it runs true. It is doable, but not a simple plug-n-play job.

RC

 

[stushug]

That's probably beyond my abilities. How do you trim the pallets?

 

[R. Croswell]

That's probably beyond my abilities. How do you trim the pallets?

You might want to read up on how to setup a recoil escapement. The entrance pallet is the one that's folded over to almost a "U" shape. You can grind off a little from the blunt end to increase the spacing between the pallets without seriously affecting the lift angle. If you need to close the distance, you can bend the exit pallet toward the entrance pallet but if you have to close very much it will mess up the lift angle. The tip of the escape wheel teeth need to contact the pallets at the same angle as they did before. You need to anneal the pallet strip before bending it. It doesn't require any special ability, just patience getting it right. With the exit pallet on the tip of a tooth ready to drop, the tip of the entrance pallet should be about mid-way between two escape wheel teeth.

RC

 

[stushug]

Is anyone here able to make me a new escape wheel?

 

[stushug]

I've been posting about this clock in another thread, but I need to find someone to make me a new escape wheel. I've worked with Harry Hopkins in the past, but I sent him an email days ago and I haven't gotten a response. Looking at his stats, he hasn't logged in here since January 12 this year. Perhaps he's not feeling well, or worse. If someone can make me a wheel, or point me to someone who can, I'd appreciate it. The current wheel is 34mm OD and 40 tooth count. I can't find a pre-made one that matches so I think having one made is the best way for repair.

 

[R. Croswell]

I've been posting about this clock in another thread, but I need to find someone to make me a new escape wheel. I've worked with Harry Hopkins in the past, but I sent him an email days ago and I haven't gotten a response. Looking at his stats, he hasn't logged in here since January 12 this year. Perhaps he's not feeling well, or worse. If someone can make me a wheel, or point me to someone who can, I'd appreciate it. The current wheel is 34mm OD and 40 tooth count. I can't find a pre-made one that matches so I think having one made is the best way for repair.

View attachment 758849 View attachment 758850

About Time - David LaBounty (abouttime-clockmaking.com) can make you a new escape wheel, but he usually has a waiting list and for a clock like this I don't know if you can justify the cost. Your clock may still have other issues, and the EW is only half of the escapement, you may still need to make adjustments to the verge. An available EW with the same number of teeth is inexpensive and may be worth a try.

RC

 

[stushug]

I just ordered an EW from timesavers. 40T 32mm OD. Hopefully I can make it work. I'm trying to do this for a friend, and as usual, doing a favor has turned into a nightmare.

 

[Dick Feldman]

Why do you think a replacement is necessary?
From your photo, the one you have may be salvageable.
Is there a shop nearby that could straighten those teeth, and refurbish that escapement?
As was said, once the escape wheel is back in shape, the relationship between the verge and wheel should be reset properly.
The teeth on your wheel have been bent due to abuse.
Just my opinion.
Dick

 

[Willie X]

Findley & Cox is good for making a new wheels. Probably run you around $120 to $150 total. They may be able to true up the old wheel and 'top' it for you, for less? David L has a very good reputation also.

Note, when you get the piece back, the pallets will always need some adjustment. So study up on that, or send them the plates and upper time train. Anyway, be sure to talk out the details with the people who will be doing the work.

Willie X

 

[stushug]

Why do you think a replacement is necessary?
From your photo, the one you have may be salvageable.
Is there a shop nearby that could straighten those teeth, and refurbish that escapement?
As was said, once the escape wheel is back in shape, the relationship between the verge and wheel should be reset properly.
The teeth on your wheel have been bent due to abuse.
Just my opinion.
Dick

I have already straightened the teeth twice. Just letting the wheel make contact with the verge bends them over again into the state they"re in now, as shown in the photo. The teeth have not been abused since I've worked on it, which was about a year ago. It was suggested in the other thread I have that the current wheel may be beyond saving, that's why I'm looking at replacements. I don't know anyone close to me that I can have look at it, so I'm pretty much on my own, with help from the guys on here(who are fantastic in my opinion.)

 

[Dick Feldman]

The teeth on your wheel have been bent due to abuse.

This board is populated by all levels of repair people.
Some are good and they represent many years of training and experience.
Others are not so good and you may have received some bad advice on this board.
Click this link and follow it to a NAWCC chapter in your area. A chapter president can recommend a person competent to help solve your problem.
Local Chapters - National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors, Inc.
Best Regards,
Dick

 

[R. Croswell]

This board is populated by all levels of repair people.
Some are good and they represent many years of training and experience.
Others are not so good and you may have received some bad advice on this board.
Click this link and follow it to a NAWCC chapter in your area. A chapter president can recommend a person competent to help solve your problem.
Local Chapters - National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors, Inc.
Best Regards,
Dick

The situation is confused because the same clock and the same damaged escape wheel are being discussed in two different threads. I fail to understand why the straightened teeth immediately bend on contact with the verge, but the repeated attempts to “fix” it have apparently left it in a state that will be difficult to repair. I believe the op is correct to conclude that repair is beyond his current ability and that obtaining a replacement ew is the logical way forward.

RC

 

[stushug]

The situation is confused because the same clock and the same damaged escape wheel are being discussed in two different threads. I fail to understand why the straightened teeth immediately bend on contact with the verge, but the repeated attempts to “fix” it have apparently left it in a state that will be difficult to repair. I believe the op is correct to conclude that repair is beyond his current ability and that obtaining a replacement ew is the logical way forward.

RC

I think I made a mistake starting a second thread. Hopefully a Mod can merge the two, or delete the second one. I'm not sure how to ask for that.

 

[stushug]

A large soldering iron is best for this particular job, 125 watts is good. Clean the joint surfaces with a knife and a stiff SS buush. Use a liquid acid flux and when cool rinse with water, with a little sodium bicarbonate added. Finish with compressed air, a little heat, and then a little oil. This treatment will keep the job from corroding over time. Willie X

View attachment 745932

Well, I thought I repaired the hinge, but after just a few openings and closings, it broke apart. I made the mistake of using plumbing solder and I'm not sure if the flux I used was correct either. Can you recommend a proper flux and solder so I can get it right this time? Thanks.

 

[stushug]

Findley & Cox is good for making a new wheels. Probably run you around $120 to $150 total. They may be able to true up the old wheel and 'top' it for you, for less? David L has a very good reputation also.

Note, when you get the piece back, the pallets will always need some adjustment. So study up on that, or send them the plates and upper time train. Anyway, be sure to talk out the details with the people who will be doing the work.

Willie X

I spoke with Richard @ Findley & Cox. I'm sending him the movement so he can make the repair and set the entire escapement properly. Very nice guy and the price is reasonable.

 

[R. Croswell]

Well, I thought I repaired the hinge, but after just a few openings and closings, it broke apart. I made the mistake of using plumbing solder and I'm not sure if the flux I used was correct either. Can you recommend a proper flux and solder so I can get it right this time? Thanks.

The liquid flux sold for TIX solder works pretty well with most other solders. Plumbing solder used to mean 50/50 tin & lead but now that lead is no longer allowed there are several types of solder used for plumbing, but I suspect it was the flux you used or your method that was the reason for the failure. I would not use TIX solder for this application but the flux (available from timesavers) is good.

RC

 

[Dick C]

Contact Richard Cox at Fendley & Cox Antique Clocks

 

[Willie X]

Back to post #15 ... Also, look up 'cold solder joint'. Willie X

 

[stushug]

What do you guys think of this?:
Silver Bearing Solder Paste

 

[gmorse]

Hi stushug,

Hopefully a Mod can merge the two, or delete the second one. I'm not sure how to ask for that.

Just use the 'Report' button at lower left and say what you'd like to do.

Regards,

Graham