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Another ST 124 question.

Carl Bergquist

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I have been reading and rereading Conover's books (Escapements and Chime Clock Repair). This is what I think I know. I think the verge is a recoil, it should have only two impulse faces. I look at my anchor and I see two impulse faces or possibly four and I think mine is using three. Two on the entrance and one on the exit. I think the entrance pallet is too deep and is landing on the "dead" face (if this were a deadbeat). The clock will run continually without all the pendulum "stuff" but add the suspension and pendulum and it will run a few hours only. It is very hard to detect an "in beat" sound and my Microset just gives me crazy numbers. My test stand has levelers so I can get it way out of beat one way and way out of beat the other way, but no sweet spot in the middle.
Is my anchor correct for a 124? I have not filed on it, it didn't have deep groves, I only polished the faces a little. I have bushed about half the holes in the time train and there seems to be plenty of power (I did put in a new time spring just for fun) I did the clay impression of the escape wheel and find any teeth that are terrible. It does not seem to be "out of round" but listening to it sometimes I think I hear differences as it works it's way around.
and

DSCF2567 (2).JPG DSCF2568 (2).JPG
 
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Vernon

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I would check the ew. and anchor for bushing (good optics). Looks like a deadbeat.
 

Dick Feldman

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Dead beat escapement. Let us not confuse the situation with speculations.
From my perspective, the escapement is in correct adjustment. There seems to be no recoil and that is good. I cannot see where the verge and the EW meet but if it runs without a leader/pendulum it is likely good.
If the video is in real time, my feeling is that the escapement is running quite slow. It should be rattling back and forth. That translates to low power in the train. I also think the escapement may be getting undue attention. Could it be the escapement is becoming a cause of concern when it may be a victim of low power? If you change the settings on the escapement, you may be only adding another reason for the clock to not run. Two reasons for a clock not running are more than twice as difficult to solve than one. My experience is that escapements seldom need adjustment. The most likely cause of an escapement being wrong is someone having made a novice adjustment.
I would expect you have a bent pivot in the train somewhere, an arbor with not enough end shake, a broken pivot, a lost center, etc. etc.
That is what I think,
Dick
 

Willie X

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Escapement action just doesn't look right.

It's a regular dead beat escapement, two dead faces and two impulse faces.

If you can add the pendulum and do a
slo-mo close-up video, that would be helpful.

I also suspect lack of power issues.

Willie X
 

shutterbug

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It does appear though that there is a lot of lock, and the entry pallet might actually be hitting the rim of the EW. If the video is in real time and not slow motion then I agree with the other's that there is not much power there. Post a video like Willie requested. When you take the verge out of the movement, does the EW turn slowly like that? You should be able to start and stop it with your thumb and get very quick response from it.
 

wow

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That video has got to be slow motion. I’ve never seen any clock crutch move that slow without the leader . Curious!
 

Carl Bergquist

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Thanks for all the input. Now I know that it is a deadbeat. The entrance pallet seems to hit high on the dead face and slide down to the impulse face, whereas the exit pallet appears to only contact the impulse face. When the clock stops it always stops with the entrance pallet engaged.
Pardon my bad video. The video with only the crutch in real time is moving very rapidly as it should and will run for as long as I let it. I will look at each wheel again, I think the bushings in the top three have all been replaced but I will address endshake. I put two or three wheels in and then spin them face up and face down to see if they have bad spots and to see if the are running freely. Back to square one Dick, if I have learned one thing from you and Willie and the others it is that wear along the entire train is eventually going to stop a 100 year old clock and don't mess with the escapement.
 

Willie X

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If the e-wheel's teeth are indeed landing as you say, the verge has been severely altered, or it's a transplant from another clock. Willie X
 

Dick Feldman

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If you do, in fact, have a pallet falling on an impulse face, you do have a problem.
Do you remember David Goodman's rules for (locks) drops?

Rule #1
To close the drop off the exit pallet, close the center distance
To open the drop off the exit pallet, open the center distance

Rule #2
To close the drop off the entrance pallet, close the pallets
To open the drop off the entrance pallet, open the pallets

With that clock, it is relatively simple to change the center distance but more difficult to open/close the pallets. If you attempt to modify the pallets, it will be almost impossible to reverse. (My bet is the pallet distance is correct).

Are you 100% sure the power is sufficient to the escapement before you adjust?

Best,
Dick
 

shutterbug

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I suspect that if the exit is hitting the impulse face on that anchor verge, the movement is probably way out of beat. I'd look at that first. You'll need the pendulum on it for that. Look at "Beat Setting 101" at the top of the forum.
 

Carl Bergquist

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I was about to separate the plates but out of curiosity I tried a weaker suspension spring with an over long leader (no pendulum) and the clock ran very strong but with a lot of slapping by the crutch because the leader wire was too small. Put the pendulum on and it ran till I went to bed. It was dead in the morning. I have thought about rule 1. I am deathly afraid of rule 2. I will go back to square one. Check all bushings, check end shake, look for bent pivots.( I do have those spacers in place) Also, I did fix the second video which shows a slight recoil. Maybe it is time to start flying my model planes again, there is no fixing those when I am done.
 

Dick Feldman

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I was about to separate the plates but out of curiosity I tried a weaker suspension spring with an over long leader (no pendulum) and the clock ran very strong but with a lot of slapping by the crutch because the leader wire was too small. Put the pendulum on and it ran till I went to bed. It was dead in the morning. I have thought about rule 1. I am deathly afraid of rule 2. I will go back to square one. Check all bushings, check end shake, look for bent pivots.( I do have those spacers in place) Also, I did fix the second video which shows a slight recoil. Maybe it is time to start flying my model planes again, there is no fixing those when I am done.
For what it is worth....
I have had operational problems with ST 124's because replacement suspension wires available today are thinner than the originals. That makes the suspension wire rattle in the crutch slot as you describe. I have never trusted the joint between the suspension spring and the suspension wire with the original equipment suspensions. I have seen many fail because that joint breaks or gets wobbly. To remedy, I have built suspension rods with thicker wire or reduced the width of the slot in the crutch.
Something else to think about.
Best Regards,
Dick
 

Vernon

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I think the bushings in the top three have all been replaced
So it could be that one or more of these are slightly misplaced causing your issue? You could remove the mainspring then use finger power to slow things down to where you can see the escapement action best (just to confirm or dispel). Look at examples to compare with.
I've been doing this with every clock that I work on now.

Vernon
 

Carl Bergquist

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I spent a couple hours yesterday looking at this train and can find nothing alarming. I have dozens of new suspension springs and wires, but all are too thin for the 124 and really "slap" the crutch. I took sandpaper to the original suspension spring which showed that the original had several nicks in it and it tended to hang crooked to the right but it did have a proper diameter wire. So I will see what I can fabricate or possibly sand the original down a little and take the nicks out.
 

shutterbug

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You could either narrow the crutch slot or add a small tube to the wire to expand it a bit. Sometimes you have to be inventive :) Shrink tubing might even work.
 
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Willie X

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Read post #9. The suspension rod is probably not causing a (no run) condition.
Willie X
 

Dick Feldman

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The ST 124 can be a quirky movement.
I have, like Carl, spent lots of time with troubled 124's.
I have checked and rechecked, disassembled and assembled numerous times only to find the suspension wire loose in the crutch.
When I have cured that, the troubled clock movement would run reliably.
To run, a movement has to have a long series of proper functions.
Any one function missing will cause the clock to be unreliable.
Any two will cause great consternation on the part of the repairer.
Dick
 

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