Another newbie Herschede question.

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Richb134, Jun 10, 2019.

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  1. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

    May 19, 2019
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    Hello All,
    My new model 106 Christopher Columbus with an A64 movement had been running flawlessly .....until this weekend. The clock was reasonably in beat. My question. What tightens the pendulum clutch crutch to the horizontal shaft out of the back of the movement? It appears to be slipping and allowing the clock to work itself out of beat. I can set it finding bottom dead center (for lack of a better term) and moving left to right (aka beat scale) Is it a set screw? Straight blade? Allen? I am assuming it is accessible through the rear of the clock with the tubes out? Any info would be appreciated.
    Thanks for your continued help.
    Rich
     
  2. wow

    wow Registered User
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    A photo of that section of your movement is what we need in order to help.
     
  3. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Yes. I am a big fan of pics. Was just having trouble trying to post it from my iPad and I need to remove the tubes to even think about getting my phone in there. On the 106 the top Side glasses are not removable which tends to make things more difficult. Was just hoping to get a heads up as to how it is secured to the shaft.

    Thanks Steve for moving this to the correct forum. I realized my mistake right after I posted .

    Rich
     
  4. R&A

    R&A Registered User

    Oct 21, 2008
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    Your going to have to take the weights off. Retain the cables or let them down. 2 screws on the back and you can remove the verge and do the necessary repairs if needed. I believe it is friction fit and has come lose. Some are very stiff and hard to move. If you pull the face you can get to the back of the movement.
     
  5. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Thanks for the prompt reply. Press fit. That’s what I was after. Will report back after I get into it.

    Rich
     
  6. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    the a64 movement is the new design that they adopted just before the company went out of business. it has to be built in '83 or '84. i know a thing or two about the previous version, but since the a64 was pretty much a "whole different animal" i really can't say how this system works without seeing it. the "cheap" german companies use something that was called an auto beat adjustment which was basically a plastic sleeve that was designed to have a friction slip on the verge shaft. all herschede bell movements i have seen have a slotted disc adjustment on the pendulum to adjust beat. i don't know in the case of the a64 however, but i cannot imagine herschede would have designed a slip into this system.

    what makes you think it is slipping?
     
  7. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

    May 19, 2019
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    Thanks for the input Brian. Yes it does have the slotted disc on the pendulum as my 294 does. The problem seems above that. With the pendulum out I am able to move the crutch to where I am reasonably “in beat” . When I reinstall the pendulum and start it the crutch must shift or work it way out of beat. That’s where I believe is is slipping. I am just not sure how it is secured.
    Additionally, the clock has a brass plate that indicates it was a gift on March 4, 1982. I will try to post some pictures when I can figure out how from my iPad.

    Rich
     
  8. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    It could be the 'last gasp' Herschede movement but they also used other movements in their later clocks. I've seen several Jauch movements. Willie X
     
  9. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Movement serial number is 1A640763-89.
     
  10. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    A number can be helpful but rarely. A photo will do it every time. Willie X
     
  11. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Thanks Willie. I will post some pics once I figure out how from my iPad.
     
  12. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    1633A8A6-1991-45D2-A587-B9DD726A2A60.jpeg 2AC1FC9F-ACBF-4821-9971-5495AADAF4A7.jpeg Test. Hope this works. If so, I will post photos when I get it apart.
     
  13. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Wow, that's quite a collection! :)
     
  14. Time After Time

    Time After Time Registered User
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    Yeah. Put up some Wall Clocks and a shelf or two of Mantels and you have a Clock Shop/Store Display (instead of a Dining Room). :Party:
     
  15. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    well...i can't believe my wife has the audacity to complain about my collection of hall clocks. lol. who needs a dining room table?

    you have a flagship clock with an in house movement there and i can see a 294 keeping your columbus company in those pics.

    the only way to post videos on this web site is to link a youtube vid. make an account there(easy to do), shoot some vids with your cell phone, upload to your account from your cell. finally copy and paste the link to your vid here on the forum in your thread. i find the copy/paste part is easiest from a laptop or home computer.
     
  16. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Lol. Thanks for the input. Guitar collectors have GAS. (Guitar acquisition syndrome). I have GAS and CAS. Between grandfathers and Atmos clocks I am running out of room.
     
  17. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

    May 19, 2019
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    1C33D35D-1BD2-4470-9062-5769620558FC.jpeg B7193336-3A1D-41E2-B6B3-38E7A8D9C65D.jpeg 0A005206-0579-47AC-B96F-A789E840EA40.jpeg Good morning everyone,
    I managed to pull the top of the clock and snap a picture of the area where I believe the problem lies. Not what I expected to see. I thought I would find a set screw to secure the crutch. I will try to post better closeups this weekend. Could this be a press fit? Also, not sure what that lump in the picture is. I will try to clean it up with one dip before the next pics. For reference the blue painters tape is to hold the crutch.
    Thoughts?
    Thanks again.
    Rich
     
  18. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Rich, you will have to remove the pallet assembly and get that solder off. Then you can tell what you’ve got and should be able to tighten the clutch so it fits tight enough to barely slip. That should solve your problem with the crutch. There is no plastic there so you can heat it and blow off most of the solder. The rest should come off with a brass wire wheel in a lathe or Dremel.
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Agree. Someone soldered it, which destroys the intended adjusting properties.
     
  20. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Thanks for the replies. It certainly didn’t look like a factory installation. My guess is it was slipping and this was someone’s interpretation of a fix. Am I correct in assuming the pallet assembly will remove from the clock with a couple of screws? Beyond that do you think this is just a press fit? Thanks so much for all of your help.

    Rich
     
  21. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

    Feb 9, 2008
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    Yes, two screws, make sure the weight is off!

    It's not a press fit but it has to be tight. Tight enough to be moved by hand with some difficulty. This is the coarse beat adjustment. It is adjusted first and the wheel (at the drive pin) is then used as a fine adjustment. Willie X
     
  22. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    i concur with advice already posted above. the solder appears to be someone's "hack" repair. remove those two screws that hold the suspension bridge on the back of your movement and your crutch should be home free. pull it out and take a good look at it to see what you actually have before you mentally commit to any repair path. there is a possibility the solder serves another purpose aside from the topic of discussion here. this movement does indeed appear to have some sort of slip mechanism on the verge shaft. that is a new one for me when it comes to Hershcede. perhaps this was a feature added with the A64.

    at any rate, the good news is that it appears this is something you should be able to fix without removing the movement and taking it all apart.
     
  23. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Is it possible that yours is not the proper crutch or anchor for your clock? Something seems strange about that repair. Has this clock perhaps experienced the tender mercies of an antique dealer?

    Sometimes a clock with an autobeat slip clutch will jump out of beat when you're setting the hands backward or doing something else to interrupt the progress of the escape wheel. If the escape wheel isn't moving along properly a pallet may hit an escape wheel tooth, and this will cause the autobeat clutch to slip. I discovered this during a house call.

    M Kinsler
     
  24. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    This is not an auto-beat movement.

    It could have had an an accident that loosened the crutch to pallet connection. I've also seen this connection moved when the escapement goes 'point to point' while the pendulum is swinging. This makes a very bad sound. Willie X
     
  25. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Thanks again for all of the input. I am going to try to remove this later today. I transported the clock 600 miles. Was running fine when I got it home and set up. I really don’t know a lot about it’s history. Thanks Willie for reminding me about the weight. My guess is it could potentially free fall or time would “fly”. Brian, also appreciate your input and assessment. Kinsler, I have no reason or evidence to think it is not the proper crutch. Someone had their paws in it and shouldn’t have. Anyway, I enjoy a good challenge. I will post picks when I get it apart.
    Thanks again.
    Rich
     
  26. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Well, I managed to remove the weight and secure the cable by making a slotted type of jig. Attempted to remove the two back screws and of all of the 300 screwdrivers I own, none seem to be correct to the point I am comfortable using it. A very thin, very wide blade. Tomorrow is a new day.........
     
  27. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    E7AAFB07-8A9E-4FBD-A887-5AECBB75585E.jpeg 6F336776-19F9-4678-8ACD-61CEC2BD0A04.jpeg 98E3099C-8C2E-48BB-B6DA-E933669584A4.jpeg Well I managed to get it removed without much trouble once I was comfortable with the blade fit. My next step will be to remove the solder and see what is underneath. I suspect it was an attempt to keep it from slipping
    The crutch also looks bent to me as I assume it should be perpendicular to the shaft. Any thoughts would be appreciated.

    Rich
     
  28. wow

    wow Registered User
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    The crutch being bent is not a major concern. The important thing is how it connects with the leader. They are often bent to match with the center of the leader. You will be able to decide about that when you put it back together.
     
  29. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Thanks for that point. It was keeping perfect time so it is probably correct. Just seemed a little odd to me.
     
  30. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    looks to be a mess. did you play around with it to see if it does indeed slip? does the problem appear to be the solder joint or where the two pieces of brass (crutch and collar) come together?

    if the solder joint is solid, depending on your ability, it may not be a bad idea to leave it even though it is an extremely ugly repair.
     
  31. Richb134

    Richb134 Registered User

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    Valid point Brian. The solder joint is slipping. My guess is that it would only take a couple of degrees of slip to throw the clock out of beat to bring it to a stop. I’m thinking the solder may actually be hindering the self correcting design. If it was slipping on the shaft I’m wondering if this was an attempt to get it to “run”. David Tarsi wrote in 2002 “The majority of the problems on these clocks are created by well
    meaning uniformed repair persons.” This could be a perfect example. The thought of leaving it has the potential of giving me night terrors. I tend to be over extremely meticulous.
    My biggest fear is removing the solder, cleaning it up, pressing it back on and still having the slip.
    As they say....no guts....no glory.
    Thanks again for your thoughts.
     
  32. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    It's supposed to slip, with quite a bit of resistance. Willie X
     
  33. brian fisher

    brian fisher Registered User

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    well, i believe it is indeed supposed to contain a very tight slip adjustment, i don't think it was intended to do so in that spot. i think this was designed into the connection of the crutch and that little brass collar which can be seen in your photo above. i do not believe this clock was designed to auto adjust. i think the adjustment for this one should be in that little slotted disc on the pendulum.
     
  34. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    That is correct. Willie X
     
  35. wow

    wow Registered User
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    You’ve got to get that solder mess off. It’s so unprofessional. Once you get it off and clean things up, you can see what is happening. You should be able to stake it back tight. If you have a crows foot, it makes staking easier sometimes.
     

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