American Another new haven maybe-steal

Salsagev

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Hello, I am creating this thread in favor of Isaac before this arrives. I have bought this new haven chime no. 5. It is being shipped right now and I hope it arrives in peaceful condition. Here is the past auction on what this is: Trafalgar Road On-Line Auction | Medley Auctions
Shipping came to be 68 plus a small Junghans clock. As notified, Isaac told me in PMs that the back gong was converted to a kitchen gong. The hands are missing as well. Everything else looks present including the pendulum. Was this a good find I your opinions? It cost quite a bit. I paid 120 dollars for the clock and minus the small Junghans clock, probably 50 for shipping. The dial needs major repair and the wood supposedly is in good condition. The movement looks “nice”. Thanks in advance.
 

Isaac

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Hey Calvin, looks like the link is to a tractor instead of your clock.
 

wow

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Steal!! I really believe you did well. I love those brackets. Looks like the movement and gongs are complete. What will you do with the dial? Keep us informed of your progress. Congrats!!
 

Dave T

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Gorgeous clock. Especially for the price.
Isn't that what they call a Wilcock?
 
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Isaac

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Yes, the patent extends to the auxiliary chiming movement as well as the sounding box.

At one time, New Haven referred to these clocks as "Gunther's chime clocks", although I'm unsure how the Gunther family fits into the picture since the chiming portion of the clock was patented by Stephen Willcock.

Here is the patent which directly contains the dual-movement layout of the New Haven Willcock chime clocks. It contains some good commentary in regards to the patent description on the advantages of the chime movement design and is a fun read. Seems like the biggest advantage Stephen touted was that the movement can be mounted inside a clock without having to make the case deeper. US525064A - willcock - Google Patents

Here is his patent for the sound board, along with his description. https://patents.google.com/patent/US557040

Regards.
 
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Steven Thornberry

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At one time, New Haven referred to these clocks as "Gunther's chime clocks", although I'm unsure how the Gunther family fits into the picture since the chiming portion of the clock was patented by Stephen Willcock.
Willcock actually assigned his clock resonator patent to Reinhold Egmund Gunther of Toronto (see below). I, too, am not sure of his specific connection to Willcock. He was member of a family firm of wholesale jewelers and watchmakers. See Kirk Fallin's article on Willcock in the June 1987 Bulletin, p. 204.

[pdf]613995[/pdf]
 

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brian fisher

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there was some good stuff in that auction. i saw perhaps 4 that i would have bid on. a sherline lathe too.

canada? i would guess shipping is going to be a little sporty.
 

Bruce Alexander

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Congrats Calvin! That's a nice clock. The Fleur-De-Lis style hands may be a little tricky to come by. Perhaps not if the T & S movement used in these Chimers was used in other Time and Strike models as well?

Seems like the biggest advantage Stephen touted was that the movement can be mounted inside a clock without having to make the case deeper
I would seem that New Haven was concerned about the compactness of their Chime Movements. The notorious 3-Plate Westminster is very compact with 3 dimensional overlapping of gear trains. My guess is that it allowed for a lot of flexibility in casing that particular movement.

It is very interesting and instructive to see the Patents.

I look forward to seeing more of this clock project in the future.

Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

Bruce
 

Isaac

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I would seem that New Haven was concerned about the compactness of their Chime Movements. The notorious 3-Plate Westminster is very compact with 3 dimensional overlapping of gear trains. My guess is that it allowed for a lot of flexibility in casing that particular movement.

Bruce
No doubt about it - it gave New Haven the chance to make a WM chiming banjo clock, which is a pretty cool feat considering the construction style of a banjo clock. Those triple plate "compact" movements are really something else to put back together, though. I think any movement that has "triple" in it such as Waterbury's triple deck chime movement means a pain in the butt to service!
 

Isaac

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Pretty much a standard chime movement with a larger drum to accommodate the chimes and a selection mechanism to shift the drum over. Nothing as bad as Waterbury's WM Triple Decker movement.
 

Kevin W.

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Very nice clock. Yes Wilcock, another great Canadian invention. Funny some say shipping from Canada is high, i say the same from the states.
If i could find a clock that locally, i would like to have one too. Thanks for sharing it here.
 

Salsagev

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Isaac

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Thanks. Will a hermle hand fit this clock?

Are these worse or better than Sonora?
These clocks require a minute hand with a rectangular cutout. Otherwise, if the hands fit the original style and are properly sized for the face and their arbors, then I'd imagine that the Hermle hand would work.

They're different beasts than Sonora clocks - what exactly do you mean when you ask if it's better? Better in sound, or in quality, or etc?
 

Isaac

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Well, it's hard to compare the sound quality, since bells and gongs produce completely different tones. However, the resonance of the cathedral coils on the New Haven are very good (and have good volume since there are sound egress holes on the back of the clock). It is much harder to get a small cathedral coil to produce a loud and strident sound versus a well-made bell. It seems the goal for William Hoschke's resonator for the Sonora clocks is to create great sustain for the nested bells, while Stephen Willcock's design is to increase the volume and overall sound quality of a coiled gong setup.

In terms of quality, the Willcock movement has both solid plates front and back, along with extended bushings near some arbors with high torque and low speed to help beef up those areas. The ST Sonora chime movement has a cut-out plate on the front and a solid plate on the back. Besides the bushings for the great wheel's arbor, there are no extended bushings to help reduce wear in high-torque areas. However, this is not to say that the Sonora movement isn't well constructed - they've lasted over a hundred years. Both movements have lantern pinions throughout (exception to the 8 Bell sonora, which has a solid pinion for the fly arbor only).

Hopefully this answers your question.
 

Salsagev

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Thank you for the detailed answer. Do you happen to have a 8 bell Sonora clock? And a NH chime no 1?
 

Isaac

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Thank you for the detailed answer. Do you happen to have a 8 bell Sonora clock? And a NH chime no 1?

No, I have neither of those clocks (but I would be more than glad to add them to my collection!)
 
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D.th.munroe

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Funny some say shipping from Canada is high, i say the same from the states.
I'm finding it less expensive to ship to the US, 5.46kg to salsa was 39 Canadian.
If you know the size of the hands or measure when you get it, I may have some here.
Dan
 

Salsagev

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I guess 5-60 dollars is not super crazy shipping compared to the company who charged 80 to ship a mantle clock. The clock is here! I haven’t checked it out yet so stay tuned for results.
 

Isaac

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Exciting times! Keep us posted.
 

Salsagev

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I just got a chance to post but Here is what I got:
-there is some holes in the front door.
-the relocated gong block loose.
-there is some weird silver solder thing on the front door(picture in auction link).
-the chimes are unusual.
Here is a chiming video: New haven chime

I stand corrected:^:whistle:: look at the picture of box!!

I look forward to your replies. TIA.

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Isaac

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Whoa, that's one crazy packing job. I'm surprised that the top is undamaged, even more that the entire clock didn't launch itself out of the box!

The chimes don't sound right. Two of the coils sound as they should, but the other 2 chime coils don't seem to be in-tune with the rest of the array. Whoever took the gong block apart also seemed to mess up the arrangement of which order the gongs go in. Sounds like someone took some spare small coiled gongs and adapted them to this clock.

I would wait and find a parts/repair gong block appropriate for this movement (which will also include the strike coil in the correct position. You could also try your hand at tuning the untuned gongs, but it might be an effort in vain.
 

Kevin W.

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The packing job really sucks. You were lucky its not smashed, the top of the clock.
 

Salsagev

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I believe it was in a very large box before it was packed in the small box. The box was very big.
 

Salsagev

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Two of the coils sound as they should, but the other 2 chime coils don't seem to be in-tune with the rest of the array. Whoever took the gong block apart also seemed to mess up the arrangement of which order the gongs go in. Sounds like someone took some spare small
I don’t like the sound of that.
I would wait and find a parts/repair gong block appropriate for this movement
Now I wish I had bid on that other new haven in the same auction.
 

Isaac

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It is what it is, such is the nature of some chiming clocks that are listed without a video of the chimes. Without hearing the clock, it's just a gamble if the gongs sound good or not.
 

Isaac

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Nope, the gongs are out of tune with one another. No amount of hammer adjusting will make these sound better as they currently are.
 

Salsagev

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This clock came from a NAWCC member named “Balfour”. Maybe they know what’s going on?
 

Salsagev

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I just got the third gong to sound good. It turns out the last gong is the issue. I see some solder stuff in that back 4th gong.
 
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Salsagev

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Here is the lot of books that came from the same auction. There is a few more books coming but this is what I have her right now: any useful books here? Any information on these books? I could find very limited information for some of these books and some are very old. Btw, these books all are relating to the member “Murray Balfour”. Thanks.

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D.th.munroe

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Alot of good books there.
Some of those have been on my want list for a while.
Practical clock repairing is a good one.
The John Plewes repairing and restoring pendulum clocks is great. I just bought a spiral bound one, a couple hours ago.
The Canadian clock ones are good as well and hard to find the older ones.
 
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Dave T

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I'd say they are all good too. You never know when you'll run across a clock and want to know more about it. Might just be in one of these.
 
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Salsagev

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I never expected any of these to be rare but the Canadian clock books interested me. Any info on the thick books?
 

Steven Thornberry

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I never expected any of these to be rare but the Canadian clock books interested me. Any info on the thick books?
They look like binders containing past issues of the NAWCC Bulletin. Worth hanging on to them.
 

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Rockford's early high grade movements by Greg Frauenhoff