Another Ingraham

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by disciple_dan, Apr 29, 2019.

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  1. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    20190429_201740.jpg
    Yet another Ingraham. Are these movements prone to wear? Not so much the pivots but, the gearing?
    I think I'm going to start a petition for solder gun control. I'm not a soldering pro but I do know better than to do a job like this. Who are these people?
    20190429_203023.jpg
    Hopefully, I can get that off without too much damage.
    I think this is an older model. It has all wire levers instead of the stamped out ones.
    The great wheels are constructed differently also.
    20190429_221455.jpg
    The click gear seems to be held by this pressed on collet.
    20190429_221517.jpg
    The arbors are in there pretty loosely. After I clean it all up I'm going to press the collet down just a bit to try and snug it up.
    Any suggestions?
    Thanks, Danny
     
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  2. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Yes, Dan, you’ve got the infamous Rathbun bushings to deal with. At least they just soldered them on rather than drilling holes and using sheet metal screws. It’s easier to remove the solder than to fill the holes caused by the screws. Does the back side have any? Those main wheels are usually a little loose from wear. They can be tightened using a hollow punch mounted in a vise. Not too tight! They are supposed to have a little play. You may have to bush those two holes on the front using a hand bushing tool.
     
  3. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    I'm with wow, solder is much better than those nasty little screws.

    I average about 5 bushing on these. This escapement is delicate but yours seems to be unmangled! Nearly all of these movements have hammered clicks. By hammered I mean that the tip of the click has been spread wider. This extra width causes binding of the click against the main wheel. When it hangs up ...
    KA-BLOOOE.

    I think your stamp is Feb 03 (?)

    Good luck, Willie X
     
  4. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    I would like to have the resources to purchase all Rathbun bushings made and melt them down into something worthwhile. There are some occasions where solder is necessary or at least acceptable but it should not look like it was put on with a caulking gun. Very few clock repairs are as durable and secure when soldered as when done properly whether it be staking, peening, pinning, or what not.
     
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  5. tom427cid

    tom427cid Registered User
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    Aw come on guys, Rathbuns do have a purpose-----they are great for the tabs to hold the backs of cuckoo clocks !
    tom
     
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  6. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks, wow. There are no other bushings. I haven't determined what it needs yet but I have seen a couple of questionable holes at first glance.
    Yeah, after I read the post and saw the pics of the wife that took and wack on the knuckle I decided to replace all the clicks I find in this condition. It's not really that difficult and it's well worth the worry of maybe someone getting injured by my work even if it's a hundred years from now.
    Wille, which guitar string do you use for the click spring? I used the bottom E (the large one) and stripped its winding. I didn't fit the groove of the new clicks you can buy at TS but I was able to fasten lit in good and hard.
    If I were to make my own click, what is the best way to fasten it? I like the ones that are drilled but that seems like it could be difficult.
    Have a great day everybody, I will, Danny
     
  7. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Don't know if anyone else has found this to be true but I find some of the worst clicks in Ingraham clocks. This one pictured is perhaps the worst click failure I've seen, yes, found in an Ingraham kitchen clock. About the only thing worse is the quality of the replacement clicks sold by the suppliers - made in India I suspect. I usually use a steel shoulder rivet to mount a click. That's the only way that I've found to ensure that the rivet stays really secure and that the click doesn't bind. Unfortunately these usually have to be made by hand on a lathe as the ones sold by the suppliers rarely fit anything correctly. Not hard to cut out a new click from heavy sheet brass using a jeweler's saw but it does take some time.

    Oh yes, that Ingraham kitchen clock of mine that busted a click, well just to get even with it for what it did to me, I installed two clicks one each main wheel. Makes a weird sound when being wound. Then a couple years later while winding one side I noticed only one click clicking. Sure enough, one had failed and the other saved me great pain. That's the only clock I've ever put two clicks on, but it does work, and a few new movements I believe are being made that way. Don't know about that Ingraham of mine, guess it just hates me. Anyway it still has 4 clicks and I still don't trust it.

    RC

    DSC00950.jpg dual_click.jpg
     
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  8. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    I got the Rathbuns off by a method that I read on one of David LaBounty's pages. I heated it up and blew it off with air.
    This is what it looked like before I cleaned it up.
    20190430_080527_Film1.jpg
    This is after.
    20190430_193943.jpg
    I still have some work to do on it. I think I'll polish it like Chris Cam did his with the paste and toothbrush.
    See ya!
     
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  9. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    I'm looking for some flat stock brass sheet to make clicks and such. What thickness do I use for clicks? Is there a hardness number to specify?
     
  10. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    "Solder gun control." I like that.;)
     
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  11. David S

    David S Registered User
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    I would go with the thickness of the original. Not much use being thicker than the ratchet wheel. Hardness ? Have no idea.

    David
     
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  12. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    #12 Willie X, May 1, 2019
    Last edited: May 1, 2019
    Scrap clock plates and chain-wheels have worked well for me. All of these small brass parts were origanilly stamped from the scraps left from making the plates, mainwheels etc.
    WIllie X
     
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  13. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Just wondering why we don't generally see steel clicks on American clocks. French clocks typically use steel clicks and brass click wheels, and German clocks often use steel clicks and steel ratchet wheels. But American clocks, even those with steel click wheels still seem to use brass clicks. The second clock I ever worked on back in 1967 needed a click. I didn't have any brass, so I made one from steel. It worked fine until I did a complete overhaul a while back when I replaced it with a brass one, I guess just because it didn't look right and that's "not how we do it".

    RC
     
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  14. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    So, I guess there are many clocks that just can't be repaired. (or it's just not feasible:???:)
    What is the most common reason an old American clock would be beyond repair? Maybe a failed click?!!!
    I don't have any scrap plates yet. I haven't been doing it long enough to find one I couldn't fix. I did replace a movement recently. Maybe I'll have a look at that old one and see if I could sacrifice it for clicks and such.
    Thanks, guys
     
  15. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I believe most scrap plates come from modern German movements, not old American ones. However, there are often orphan movements from dilapidated or broken cases that end up as scrap for parts because there's no home for them.
     
  16. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I've never seen an old American clock that was beyond repair, certainly not because of a broken click. I replace clicks all the time. "Beyond repair" usually means that the cost to rerpair is more than someone is willing to pay. I would say some of the worst conditions are when a clock is missing a lot of its original parts, when rust and/or corrosion has caused significant metal loss to wheels and pinions, wheels and pinions are so worn that several wheels or pinions will need to be replaced, or when a clock has been so butchered that restoration will be extremely difficult. One cannot completely ignore the relationship of the clocks potential value and significance after restoration to whether it is "beyond repair".

    RC.
     
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  17. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Yeah, I can see that. I've probably got a Hermle somewhere that I could use. I'm going to dig it out and make new clicks for this Ingraham. Thanks, SB
    I find that a lot here in Fl. The younger generation doesn't seem to mind if the clock works or not, they're happy just to look at it.

    Here's how the plate turned out after I got the solder off and cleaned it up. I'm happy with it. It's much better than having to see a big screw hole.
    20190501_103952.jpg
    This may we be the longest hole I've ever had to repair. I'm sure most of you have seen much worse.
    20190501_104119.jpg
    Laters
     
  18. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    I'm getting close to reassembling this Ingraham. As I was working on it, I noticed the 2nd wheels looked very similar. In fact, they are exactly alike. Is that right? I've seen other clocks with 2nd wheels very close but not interchangeable. They seem to be right. The clock worked before I started on it but If I remember right it was running fast.
     
  19. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    In many clocks the second wheels may be the same, but the length of the arbor may be slightly different du e to the thickness of the count wheel base. They are not interchangeable. I suggest you assemble with just the second wheels and it should be clear which one goes where. The second wheels are below the center shaft and do not affect time keeping.

    RC
     
  20. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks, RC. I've checked again and except for a .005" difference in the diameter of the lantern pinion these 2nd wheels are Identical. All other measurements and tooth counts are the same. Also, except for the clicks, the great wheels are identical too. Now I mark the wheels at disassembly so I can get them in the same place in reassembly. Is that really critical? I just thought they should go back the same for some reason.
    So, is this the right parts for this clock?
    20190501_201100.jpg 20190501_201904.jpg
    This one is with the great wheels also installed.
    20190501_202834.jpg
     
  21. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Wear patterns should help you locate the parts in there original positions. The wear on all the gear teeth on one side should be worn opposite to those on the other side. Also, there may be a shadow on the front part of the second wheel arbor where it was protected by the count-wheel base. Willie X
     
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  22. wow

    wow Registered User
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  23. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Hey, Will. I don't mark all the wheels but the ones that are very similar I do. I put the marks where they can not be seen readily. I put hem in the same place every time. First I look to see if someone has already marked them which is the case many times. I think it's obvious where they go when you are familiar with the manufacturer. I don't see anything wrong with marking wheels. Like you say, they are such small marks you have to have the movement apart to see them. No harm done in most cases.
    I've worked on quite a few Ingrahams though and I don't remember the second wheels being identical.
     
  24. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I do not put scratched in marks on wheels even small marks. When I do need to mark a wheel I use a felt tip sharpie pen. The mark is easy to remove with a bit of acetone on a paper towel or Q tip. Wrapping a wire or string around a wheel spoke is another way identify a part. In most cases a good picture just after one plate is removed is more than adequate to identify what goes where. Chime clocks are the biggest issue because the strike and chime parts are very similar. Simply keeping chime and strike parts in separate containers is a big help.

    RC
     
  25. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    I take a lot of pictures at disassembly. I put small scratch marks in inconspicuous places.
    I don't keep my parts separated anymore because it causes me to think more and understand better how the mechanism works. That may change in the future but for now, it helps me.
    Thanks for sharing all your trade secrets. It makes my jobs so much easier.
    Have a great day, Danny
     
  26. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Well, I'm almost happy with the clicks now. I still have a lot of room for improvement.
    Now I have an issue with the collets on the spring side of the wheels. Both wheels have very loose collets. So loose that I'm afraid they could slip back enough to let the click fall between the click geat and the wheel.
    How can I secure those once they have become that loose? Am I going to have to make new ones? That will be very difficult. I will have to remove everything to get it off. the front collet that is on rock solid, the washer, the pin and gear, and the wheel will all have to come off. Either that or drill the spring hook out and replace it which seems to be the simplest way.
    Am I looking at this right?
    Thanks for the help, Danny
    20190504_222411.jpg 20190504_222321.jpg
     
  27. wow

    wow Registered User
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    I just encountered the same collet problem with one I am working on. Only one side was bad. I mounted it in a vise and used a hollow brass piece of pipe that had the right ID to fit the collet and then tapped it till it was snug. If yours is still loose, you can stake the collet close to the arbor to tighten. If that doesn’t work, you will have to remove it all and knurl the arbor so the collet is tight.
     
  28. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Hello, Will.
    Both are very loose. I have tightened them several times. When I was working on the clicks they would work loose.
    When you say stake it on, do you mean punch some of the brass in toward the arbor in a couple or three places? I'm having trouble with the staking thing. I can't seem to find a set of punches for just that purpose. The set that seemed it might work was over 300.00. What kind are you guys using?
    Thanks again, Danny
     
  29. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Dan, if they are that loose you my need to go ahead and get them off and knurl the arbors. That will assure a tight fit.
     
  30. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    My large punches were made by drilling a hole in the end of (usually) a 3/8" round bar stock. You can use common mild steel for this purpous. Willie X
     
  31. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    If I take them off wouldn't it be better to make a new collet? Which way would you go? Take the wheel off or the spring hook?

    I was thinking if I had a punch set similar to the ones used in the factory.
    Like this.
    20190505_173816.jpg
    Thanks for the help.
     
  32. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Its easier to knurl the arbor and press or drive the original collet back on. I think that’s easier.
     
  33. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    I'm not really sure how to do that. Obviously, There's a tool for that?
    Willie, what does that punch look like? Is it what they call a closing punch? Sorry to be so needy but I need a visual.
     
  34. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    No, just a hollow punch to move the pressed on collar in tighter. May your collar is to loose to stay put? Willie X
     
  35. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Are you talking about the click spring staking? That kind of staking probably wouldn't help you with the mainwheel collar. You could try a prick punch on the collar. It would be best to remove the collar first. Then make maybe one deep stake and see what happens when you press it back on. You can make a special hollow punch with a slight taper on the inside to close a collar like this. You would need a lathe though. I used to size wedding bands with a similar tool. You can move the metal inward but only a all amount. But a small amount is all you need. Might be easier and better to just make some new collars. Willie X
     
  36. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    No, That's just bleeding over from the click spring trouble I'm having as discussed on the one you started.
    Yeah, both of the collets on these wheels are extremely loose. Wow says to knurl the arbor and I can see how that would work but I believe these are too loose. I can tap then down snug and just wiggle the wheel a little and it is loose again.
    I think I did get a knurling tool with my Grizzly lathe though. I'll see if I can find it and figure out how to use it. It's probably worth a try.
    I'm really having a hard time being happy with my click work. Mosty with setting the spring.
    Do they make a punch similar to this drawing I made here? It seems to me that this design would push the brass over onto the wire. A couple places on each side of the notch. Maybe I need to just make myself one. 20190505_221016_Film1.jpg
     
  37. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    The staking on your old part is overdone but was made with a simple chisel punch. These are easily made from an old steel chime rod or drill rod. Make it look exactly like a miniature cold chisel and then dull the sharp point with fine sandpaper. A 45 degree, 90 degree included angle, conical point punch (as already mentioned) will be easier to use and look better IMO. Willie X
     
  38. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks, Willie, I guess I don't know much about punches. I don't know what an (A 45 degree, 90 degrees included angle, conical point punch) looks like. I'll do some research on that. Thanks
     
  39. Willie X

    Willie X Registered User

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    Look up 'center punch' and 'cold chisel'. This will give you the general shape.
    Willie X
     
  40. wow

    wow Registered User
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    Dan, when I knurl those large arbors on the #1 wheels, I usually do not use a knurling tool. Like Willie said, make a punch and usei it for that too. A small hard punch is necessary. It should have a straight sharp end ground down to look similar to a flat blade screwdriver but sharper. When you remove the collet, you will see the old knurling. You can simply use those same groves and punch them deeper all the way around until they are high enough to make the collet tight when pressed or driven on.
     
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  41. David S

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    Dan,
    You may be able to find an inexpensive nail set with various punches and sometimes contain a small cold chisel. I found one and grind the ends to the profile I am looking for. Example you show some staking on the click that looks like it was done with a dull chisel. Well that is the profile I ground into one of the nail sets. Even if the steel isn't all that great, it should be fine for brass.

    The knurling rolls that came with your lathe may be too wide for this job. If you don't have narrow ones you can use the edge of a file and use that to knurl the arbor while supporting on a block of hardwood.

    If you have a lathe I think I would attempt to make new collets first and see how you make out.

    David
     
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  42. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks, guys. I'm going to get this thing settled.
     
  43. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I think you have been given several options but not much has been said about how the problem with the collet came about and that might affect how you resolve it. I may be just lucky but I haven't seen this to be a common problem, especially two lose collets on the same clock. That suggests to me the someone has had these off before, or there is an undetected defect, or perhaps factory tolerances were running "off" that day. If you have not already done so, look carefully at the collet under good light and strong magnification - you are looking for a hairline crack. Even if a collet like this has moved one would not expect it to be as lose as you describe unless it was forced off i.e. someone turned it and the knurling effectively "reamed out" the collet, someone pressed it off unevenly and "stretched" it, or it has a crack. I don't believe it left the factory this way, although there is a possibility that through hard use or abuse the tension washer may have collapsed making it seem that the collet has slipped.

    I would not attempt to stake, punch, peen, or squeeze (or solder or glue) that collet. If it fits that poorly, and you have a lathe, I would recommend that you go the way of making a new collet. When you have the old one removed you can assess whether the arbor is knurled and if the knurling is still OK.

    As for the click, your attempt to stake it to tightly hold a steel click spring will probably be unsuccessful. But that's OK, the staking only needs to keep the spring in the slot. Let the spring extend slightly beyond the click and bend the end over and pull it back. With the click in place, form the curved part of the spring and place the tail under the anchor lug. The curved loop part of the spring will cause it to naturally lay flat, and the little bend at the end will keep it from pulling out of the click.

    Hope you get it "settled" easily.

    RC
     
  44. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thank you, RC. Thank you all. That's great stuff. I'll get it done and report back to you all soon. May God bless you today and every day, Danny
     
  45. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    20190506_203049.jpg
    I'm ready to make the new collets for my main wheels. The arbor is 0.032", what size should I make the bore?
    20190506_190514-1.jpg 20190506_190528.jpg 20190506_190826.jpg 20190506_191449-1.jpg
    It was never knurled under the collet.
     
  46. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

    Mar 10, 2016
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    Ok, please forgive my attention deficit. That arbor measurement is .232" / 5.9 mm. No wonder nobody has answered.:mallet: I seem to have trouble with Thousands for some reason. I'll work on that. I like mm but I notice that most on here use inches.
    It would seem that pressing something onto rather than into would need to be a little snugger a fit. Is that true? Is there rule on that?
     
  47. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Yes, you need a tight fit. However, I've discovered that much of the issues with Gilbert clocks' pinion gear is that the hole was made too small, and it was forced onto the arbor with too much power. The result was that the stress of the too tight fit would crack the pinion eventually. The replacement gear that is still sold is also made with the center hole too small.
    So, make it tight enough to hold without turning, and not much more.
     
  48. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Now, I'm making a new collet for behind the great wheel, not the center shaft pinion. Does the same principle apply?
     
  49. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    That's how I would think of it. It should require some effort to put in place, but not a huge amount.
     
  50. disciple_dan

    disciple_dan Registered User

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    Thanks, SB. This is all new to me. I have no lathe experience except what you have seen me do on the Ingraham posts I have done in the last month or so.
    So, I found a bit that measured .229" and when I drilled the brass rod the hole was .245". Cheap bits are all I can afford right on a cheap lathe makes for a cheap job. I have an M3 taper collet set that measured fairly true when I mic it. The bits are 4" long and I guess that is a lot of run out on my tailstock which has a broken set screw on the truing adjustment.
    should I try to drill it on my drill press? I'm not sure of the best way to find the center of the brass rod but I do have some centering bits If I can mark the center.
     

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