Another Incredibly Ingenious repair

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Dick Feldman, Jul 7, 2018.

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  1. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    Verge 07-07-18.JPG
    The movement is from a Sessions black mantle.
    Nothing special or unique as a clock.
    Not my clock, was not my repair.
    My guess is the repair was fairly recent as there are vice grip marks in the ample solder.
    The cost to properly repair this will likely exceed the budgeted
    amount to repair the entire clock.
    An abomination is still an abomination.
     
  2. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Holy Cow! My bet is that it doesn't work. Ergo, it's not ingenious, just stupid. :D Plus, it's ugly. :eek:
    (I draw the line at abominations.)
     
  3. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I have a similar Ansonia black mantel clock which I acquired from a friend circa 1967. I didn't know that this part was hardened, and I thought it needed to be adjusted because the clock would not keep running. I was wrong on both points but I stuck the verge back together with something similar to JB-Weld. It didn't look quite as bad as your example but it was pretty awful but I managed to get the clock running. A few years ago I did rebuild this clock but that old verge was still working fine so I concluded that it wouldn't run any better if I replaced it so it still there and the clock is still running. The difference is that back then I didn't know any better and this was the first mechanical clock that I had ever seen on the inside so perhaps it was OK to do something like that almost 50 years ago. I certainly couldn't justify such a repair today, but the part (not the clock) was destroyed anyway so nothing to loose. Of course when a clock comes to us for repair there is often no way to know if it was an "innovative repair" by a beginner who might deserve a pass, or a sub-par repair by someone in the business of fixing other people's clocks. In my opinion it does make a difference.

    RC
     
  4. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    Bangs,
    Your bet is wrong.
    It works!!!
    It unlocks and locks as it should-every time. The clock will run 8 +/- days on one wind. The clock movement is coated with goose fat, W-D 40, and is dripping filthy grease. The clock came to me with both springs completely unwound. To me that was an indication that the clock ran full term and stopped due to being unwound. On a stand, it did it again.
    Yes, that repair is ugly but that is in the eye of the beholder. I have had some pretty homely dogs that were great companions, quite smart and loyal. Maybe that is a bad comparison but I could not resist.
    To be dependable by my standards, I feel this movement needs a boatload of bushings, the verge replaced and the brass click springs replaced with spring steel click springs. It just seemed really sad that someone spent all of that time and effort to make the repair ugly. A new verge costs $5.50 plus shipping.
    Can I sell this all to the owner? I am going to do my best. Sometimes selling the benefits will outweigh the pain of the expense. I hope to make a few extra bucks replacing that verge.
    Time will tell about the previous repair person being a genius or a cobble artist.
    I try to not be judgmental.
    Best,

    Dick
     
  5. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    It may work, but it's still not ingenious. An ingenious repair isn't ugly. :)
     
  6. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Beauty is in the eye of the beholder Dr. bangster and a parent rarely thinks that he or she has an ugly baby.

    Did you ever hear Flip Wilson's "Ugly Baby" joke? It went something like this....

    A woman holding her baby was riding on a train, minding her own business when a drunk passenger sat next to her and told her she was holding one UGLY baby. She, of course, was obviously upset and furious. The Drunk persisted so she pulled the Emergency Brake and waited for the Conductor. When he arrived, the woman complained bitterly about the rude and drunk passenger who had been bothering her. The Conductor apologized to the woman and offered to seat her in the Dining Car while he tried to find her another seat. He quickly disappeared to make arrangements and returned just as quickly. Conductor, "Again, I'm so sorry Ms. They have a table ready for you in the Dining Car. Please order a drink and anything off the menu free of charge. I'm sure the Chef even has a nice fresh banana for your Monkey."

    I'm not drunk but I think that there sure are a lot of ugly babies in the HOS Thread...:chuckling:
     
  7. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    I remember that joke! Funny.

    Beauty may be in the eye of the beholder, but ugly is in the object itself.:D
     
  8. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    i haven't tried goose fat yet... just on the mainsprings, yes?
     
  9. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    Goose fat is good for any lubrication, especially small pivots. Make sure to apply it with a chicken feather.

    Uhralt
     
  10. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    you know i do everything you recommend, yes? without questioning? (except for these, of course!)
     
  11. Dick Feldman

    Dick Feldman Registered User

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    When I was a kid, my best friend and his sister found a can of yellow paint and a paint brush.
    When they were contemplating those, the neighbor’s dog walked into the garage.
    You know the rest of the story.
    Who knows what prompts people to do some things.

    D
     
  12. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Is this a yellow dog story?
     
  13. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Well, okay. There are a lot of cute Monkeys in the HOS Thread then.
     
  14. Uhralt

    Uhralt Registered User
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    :p
     
  15. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I'm not particularly enthusiastic about the Hall of Shame, or at least not its name.

    Somewhere around the 1950's clock repair changed from what used to be essentially an appliance repair business with a skill set perhaps comparable to that of locksmithing, into whatever it is today. Maybe we're all supposed to be restorers of great art, or maybe we're just supposed to get the fool thing ticking again, with some added attention to springs and pivots.

    Our friends at the AWCI tried, apparently without much luck, to standardize and professionalize the craft, if that's what it is, with an entire holy scripture of standards that seem to have been handed down by angels who were enamored of friction bushings. If there's any actual science behind the standards it's never been revealed.

    To complicate matters further it seems that every old coot, and I include M Kinsler in that category, at some point tries to preserve his legacy by writing a book on clock repair. The resulting lively and extensive collection of literature is notable for its mutually-exclusive rules, all of which are considered by the authors as self-evident.

    For the most part a clock's movement is typically both invisible and largely incomprehensible to the owner of the clock. It either keeps time and plays little tunes correctly or it doesn't. I've always felt that this obliges repairmen (and women) to do whatever the right thing would seem to be, to wit: do a strong and reliable repair and such preventative maintenance as conscience dictates.

    I've never been a clock collector, and my customers generally aren't either, hooray. Thus I try to follow a path midway between two extremes:

    One extreme is that of the guy who regards his clock as a museum piece. He doesn't want to hear that an escape wheel from India is probably as good as the original that Seth Thomas stamped out in 1901. ( Let me interject here that I have infinite respect for our Messrs LaBounty and Keiffer and anyone else that can do their level of work. One of these days I may buy a Chinese rotary table and try making wheels myself.)

    The other extreme is the cynical repair guy who charges a great deal for poor work. I had a discussion about these stalwarts the other day with the old-time bicycle repairman down the block . And what we finally came up with was that these citizens are the same people who, in a corporate environment, always look for any advantage in the great game of Me vs. The Boss. Only when they're in the clock repair business The Boss is the next person who walks into the shop carrying his grandmother's Ingraham shelf clock.

    M Kinsler
     
  16. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    mk et al -

    i guess i have a different perspective because i'm the clock repair school system rather than clock repair business.

    my clock mentor told me early on i would figure out what i wanted to collect (turned out to be regulators w/ seconds pendulums... who knew?). what he didn't tell me... at least not at first... was that i would come to realize that doing it right was important... because we are caretakers more than 'owners'. i am just the current person to take care of the clocks in my possession (except for the marriages i've created). either way, i hope they live long and prosper after i have left this mortal coil (so to speak, of course!).

    my goal is to learn how to do way-better-than-expected maintenance and repair of my babies. i've been doing this for five years... ain't never gonna be no jerry keifer, willie, rc, etc. on the other hand, the hall of shame taught me a lot... enough to know that one of the guys who've been so helpful in my journey/education might end up working on one of my clocks.

    i feel like i owe doing it right on all levels, and to all who've been so generous with their support, time and tips.

    as for the 'ingenious' repair... i guess i think if a clock is teetering on the edge of going in a dumpster vs. a cheesy/temorary fix, go for the fix. as with most threads on the MB, there are multiple approaches and perspectives, based on skills, principles, finances and opportunity.

    i would say 'is what i think', but it might be the maker's mark. :cool:

    i'm kind of proud that all of my babies have been serviced (some by more experienced people, when appropriate) and are running... now, and in the longer term because they've all been done right.

    Screen Shot 2018-07-08 at 7.07.08 PM.jpg
     
  17. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    #17 Bruce Alexander, Jul 8, 2018
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2018
    Edit: Content previously posted was moved to intended Thread with an incredibly similar name.
     
  18. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    That is a marvelous collection, and I doubt that we differ on most issues.

    But our horological activities do differ: right now I'm learning the innards of the standard quartz movement so I can make some modifications. They're awfully clever: eight wheels (I think, nine if you count the setting wheel).

    M Kinsler
     
  19. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Oh. I was confused. Automatic transmissions have gotten real strange: Natalie's new Honda has a continuously-variable one, and I'm afraid to look for the dipstick.

    It also has a turbocharger, which wasn't an option.

    M Kinsler
     
  20. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    I just spent the better part of the day rebuilding my son's Corvette Overdrive unit. Think of it like a GM Powerglide scabbed onto the back of a normal 4 speed tranny.
    It was designed for Jeep and uses Ford FMX transmission parts.
    Even the 'pros' kludge things together out of expedience.
     
  21. mauleg

    mauleg Registered User
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    THIS. Clocks in the dumpster do little to forward horology. A temporary kludge is reversible; getting crushed at the bottom of a landfill is not.
     
  22. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Bruce, if all those clocks are yours, you have a hum-dinger of a collection!

    Here's a significant difference between thee and me: I'm flying under false colors in the NAWCC, since I'm not a collector. I enjoy fixing clocks more than owning them. I own a bunch of clocks --more an accumulation than a collection-- because I got them cheap and non-working and made them work. Not worth trying to sell, so there they hang. My heirs will figure out what to do with them.

    So I admire and appreciate a collection like yours; but I don't envy it. Having that many high-quality clocks to look after would drive me nuts.:eek:
     
  23. bruce linde

    bruce linde Technical Admin
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    bang - you're looking at five years in... i got many of mine cheap and/or not-running.

    yes, i've paid reasonable/retail prices for some of them (the ST office 1 calendar, ST parlor 3 calendar, waterbury jeweler regulator with replacement dial and case) but also gotten amazing deals on craigslist from insane (waterbury 8 standing jeweler's regulator - $400, 1820 dublin round dial tall case clock - $600) to ridiculous/free (ST pillar and scroll - free, standing pinwheel jeweler's regulator with beveled glass in the door - free, 8-day 1.5x-scale wood movement seconds clock - $20)... i couldn't really say 'no', could i?!? :cool:

    i haven't had to resurface pallets (although i have moved escape wheels and/or verges on arbors), but have had to bush, deal with mainsprings, de-rustify (similar to de-mystifying), make some small parts and otherwise study up to get them running happy. i would not have those clocks or the knowledge required without the MB. i would not have a lathe or escape wheel tooth straightener or tapered pins or all the other crap covering my kitchen table and counters and garage shop.

    am i a competent repair person? i'm ok... and getting better with each one. i still farm out the better/smaller clocks to my clock mentor. :cool:

    at this point, though, all it takes to look after them is to wind them every tuesday morning (except for the ST pillar and scroll)... 30-40 of the best minutes of every week! :cool:

    i wish the rest of the people in my sphere would catch and share the clock bug... my heirs/siblings are going to hate me (even though i'm leaving as detailed notes as possible for each one).
     
  24. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    Our place is filled with clocks, none of them mine except for the onyx Telechron given to my parents as a wedding present and a Seth Thomas enamel-dial round-movement mantel clock that my father once bought at an auction.

    I inherited that last one because it wouldn't run reliably despite (says the note) a professional rebuild by an established shop in Cleveland. It's an 84J that taught me a lot about clock repair, principally the value of rebushing verge pivots. But it is currently stored away because we've run out of room.

    Our own clocks are all round, plastic, quartz, and mounted on various walls in case anyone wants to know what time it is.

    Every level surface and lots of wall space is covered with clocks, each one waiting to go home as soon as I'm convinced it'll run reliably. A few are back for a second or third time, most notably a particularly cantankerous Ingraham mantel clock that's back for striking problems.

    Late at night dozens of out-of-phase tick-tocks combine into a cheerful white noise that seems to aid sleep.

    M Kinsler
     
  25. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    and throw the bones to check your future while your at it
     
  26. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    if your alone and you got a bad haunting back itch a toilet brush is awesome
     
  27. wow

    wow Registered User
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    It’s amazing the depth of knowledge acquired on the Message Board.
     
  28. Bruce Alexander

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    Hopefully you're talking about one bought solely for that purpose. If not, hopefully you don't break the skin using it.
     
  29. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Just be sure it's dry! :excited:
     
  30. claussclocks

    claussclocks Registered User
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    I must have logged into the wrong site. NAWCC must stand for National Association of Weird and Crazy Cohorts:eek:
     
  31. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    well doc, i dont really know how i got that rash...
     
  32. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    But really, when your layin down and that itchy spot starts naggin, try to bend an arm back to reach, maybe use fingers to craw up, but no use. Then try to ignore it, go back to sleep, start dreaming of being a bear scratchin your back on a tree.

    I use to get up in middle of the night, use anything, Corner of door frame, large kitchen knife edge, just anything...!

    Then I tried the toilet brush. Man oh man, best scratchin I could ever do to myself (,note exclusionsry of the fair sex).

    But yes under corner of my bed within reach is my favorite toilet brush. Yes, it was a new one dedicated for only one purpose.

    Go ahead try it. You know you will.
     
  33. mauleg

    mauleg Registered User
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    Must be a Floridian thing...
     
  34. Bruce Alexander

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    You can currently order a "Bear Claw" telescoping back scratcher for $1.39 with free shipping on Amazon. You can get it paired with a 2-pack of those new-fangled hand held scalp scratcher/massagers for an additional $1.30. I think I'll go that route instead and keep the toilet bowl brush in the bathroom just so there's no confusion on my part. :emoji_poop:
     
  35. G J M

    G J M Registered User

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    WOW! If I would have only known. I should have been reading this M/B for years.

    All this time I thought the bathroom brush was for cleaning the commode, the sink, the bath tub, me in the shower and the wheels on the pick-up truck. Anything needin' a good scrubbing.

    And I thought the only thing I would learn about here is clocks. Fooled me! :p
     
  36. kinsler33

    kinsler33 Registered User

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    I suspect that a brush of any sort is a better scratching tool than even my Chinese bamboo version, because the bristles are gentler but still effective. Anything harder may aggravate an existing insect bite or skin lesion and if you're as old as most clock people the skin is rather thin and vulnerable. Therefore I'm not enthusiastic about the bear claw version.

    Bath brushes were a standard bathtub accessory back when all these t/s mantel clocks were new. That would seem to be a good alternative if they're still available...

    Here's one, and Walmart has them too.

    home bath brush scrub skin massage shower brush for back exfoliation brush reach feet bathroom tool product for bath-in Bath Brushes, Sponges & Scrubbers from Home & Garden on Aliexpress.com | Alibaba Group

    Ali Express is the eBay of China, minus antique items.

    Mark Kinsler
     
  37. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    Okay, now to really beat a dead horse, are we talking about scratching skin or clothing over skin? If the former, I suppose a gentle brush is a good way to go. If we're talking about scratching through a shirt a bear claw, or what-have-you, might be a better choice. You can always go easy with a bear claw on skin too. Fortunately, my wife is around to scratch my back if I'm willing to reciprocate. :rolleyes:
     
  38. G J M

    G J M Registered User

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    Just told my wife my back was itching and I got that "we've been married forty years" look. :O:

    I'll let my back itch, sit here fat fingering on this lap top, listen to the clocks going tick tock and banging out the hours.

    Don't get no better!

    I'll go shower and take care of the back itch later.
    G
     
  39. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Yes, its the bristles. Like hundreds of tiny little fingernails perfectly guided finding the exact spot with a supreme width of coverage to even nail those walking itches. They do the kind of scratching that leaves your back blissfully tingling.

    No arguing, frustrating commands higher, lower, no your left, no go right , etc...
    Just blissful relief.
     
  40. Bruce Alexander

    Bruce Alexander Registered User
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    The wife and I seldom argue. Fortunately, an itchy back just doesn't seem to happen to me very often. Guess I'm just lucky that way. I'm sure your brush does a fine job RJ. Now, where did the topic go? Something about a MacGyver'ed Escapement...:)
     

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