Another Huber

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by etmb61, Jun 8, 2012.

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  1. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Picked this Huber up for parts but I'll probably restore it. It's actually in fairly good shape and will likely run in its present condition.

    The screws for the crown are sheared off in the front plate, the base has a small crack under the edge, and no pendulum. The top finials were also sheared off, but I do have the crown.

    The underside of the base has the original vender label. From what I could discover, John Rowland was in charge of the watch department for the first known jeweler in Montana, Mr. N. B. Donley. Rowland purchased a shop from Mr. George P. Martin of Missoula, MT in 1893. I'm thinking this clock probably came from that shop.

    The person I bought it from got it for a few bucks at an estate sale in LA.

    So how do I get those screw bits out of the top edge of the front plate? My Hauck has the same issue.

    Eric
     

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  2. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Nice find Eric, do you have the pendulum as well.
     
  3. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    No pendulum, but I'm confident there's a loose one out there somewhere. Just have to keep my eyes open.

    Eric
     
  4. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #4 John Hubby, Jun 9, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2012
    Eric, just the label is worth more than the clock! That label, in combination with the Patent Angemeldet stamp on the movement, clearly confirms this clock was made by Huber, and in the year 1899 or 1900.

    Here is the proof:
    • Andreas Huber purchased the Harder US Patent 269052 from F. A. L. De Gruyter about 1895 and started making year clocks identical to the patent for export to the U.S. and U.K. (he also had purchased British patent RLP 2182 that was valid through June 1899).
    • From the time Huber started making clocks around the end of 1895 or early 1896 until the US patent expiry date of December 11, 1899 Huber had exclusive export rights of his clocks to the U.S. This led to business with Bowler & Burdick starting in 1898 and other U.S. importers from an earlier date. The clocks sold to importers were resold to jewelers such as the company Rowland the Jeweler.
    • To my knowledge, JUF's distribution network in the U.S. went out of business after Huber purchased the Harder patents, and they did not re-establish one until after they started selling to Bowler & Burdick in 1901. That would explain why we have not found any JUF pattern clocks with U.S. labels or inscriptions other than Bowler & Burdick until 1903 and later.
    • Other clocks with the Patent Angemeldet plate and Huber name on the dial have been previously documented to be made in 1899 and 1900. Identical clocks but with Bowler & Burdick markings and labels have been documented from 1900 to 1903, outside the exclusive sales period but nonetheless clearly Huber make.
    • This clock is the first one documented bearing a U.S. jeweler label other than B&B. Since we believe that Rowland was operating from 1893 and into the 1920's (see link below), together with the Patent Angemeldet plate, this represents a true "smoking gun" proving it was made by Huber, and with little doubt was made in 1899 or 1900 while the Huber distribution system was still in place.

    I believe the info you have provided regarding Rowland is spot on, and that the clock was retailed by them. In searching the net I found This Link that tells the story of Bob Ward & Sons, a sporting goods firm still in business whose founder worked as a watchmaker apprentice and then watchmaker for the jeweler John Roland of Missoula, MT from 1900 to 1917 when he opened his own watch shop. His sons later founded the sporting goods business. Although the spelling of Rowland is different (Roland in the story) I am completely convinced it was one and the same person. Too much coincidence to have two different jewelers in Missoula, MT with such similar names. I would very much appreciate if you could provide me with the source info you have developed regarding this Jeweler, to put together in my documentation files for this clock.

    Regarding the broken off screws in the front plate, you should use a strong solution of alum in which you immerse the plate (don't leave any other steel parts) and it will eat out the remaining steel tips of the screws. You may need to apply a bit of heat to keep it reactive, some use a low-temperature hot plate to set the bowl of solution on to keep it good and warm. This is discussed in several threads in both the Clock Repair and Watch Repair forums.

    This clock would have pendulum No. 21 as illustrated in the Repair Guide, not too hard to find. Will look forward to seeing the restored clock.
     
  5. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    John,

    Here is the source for Rowland I found.

    Eric
     

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  6. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Is 4253R the serial number for the clock? Would that help date it. Or might that just be a ticket number from a service visit?
     
  7. John Hubby

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    I saw that also and had decided it was a service number. Unfortunately Huber did not use serial numbers on their clocks until they were producing the lantern pinion/pin pallet movements for Kienzle and Badische in 1912 and later. And not all of those have serial numbers . . :(
     
  8. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    No serial numbers, just the "typical" match marks on the plates and wheels.

    The plates, hour and minute wheels, minute wheel bridge, barrel parts, and the crown are stamped with the digits "41". The wheels (except the escape wheel which is unmarked) and anchor each have a series of punch marks. The click wheel bridge is stamped with a "V".

    I'm now not sure about the crown screws. When I first examined it, it appeared as though the screws were sheared off and someone later drilled new holes. Now I think they initially marked the position for the holes on the top of the front plate, and then used the crown to find the final location to drill. What I though were broken screws are undrilled holes.

    Eric
     

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  9. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Eric, thanks for the info. Regarding the crown screws, I've only run across two sets of holes/taps when someone added a non-original crown. Could you compare the crown you have with one from another Huber? That might shed some light on what you have.
     
  10. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Hi John,

    I compared it to my other Huber and I'm convinced it is the original part.

    Here are some pictures.

    The crowns are hand finished, so neither could be called standard from their dimensions. The machining marks left on the bottoms are so similar that I would say they both were produced on the same equipment.

    The crown screws are the same size and finish for both clocks, and are too large to fit the extra holes. The extra holes are only about 1mm deep and have the contour of a drill point.

    It does have the "41" mark just like the rest of the clock. Must have been made on a Monday after a long weekend!

    Eric
     

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  11. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

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    #11 MUN CHOR-WENG, Jun 10, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
    Hi John,
    It appears Huber did use serial number on some of their early solid pinion clocks such as the one that was sold on ebay on 13[SUP]th[/SUP] January this year. I’ve taken the liberty to post here for the purpose of our discussions, pictures of that clock that appeared on ebay. The clock is very similar (except for the pendulum), to Clock 28 shown on page 36 of the Repair Guide though the back plate number is not given

    As can be seen from the pictures the dial is signed with Andreas Huber’s name and the back plate is stamped with serial number 4213. The back plate is similar to Plate 1610 in the Repaire Guide. JUF is listed as the maker and 1905 as the year of manufacture. I believe there was previous discussion highlighting that it was Philip Hauck and not JUF as the maker of clock with back plate 1610 calling this an early Philip Hauck clock plate. I am unable to verify this as I do not have information pointing to Philip Hauck as the maker. However it is noted that JUF did feature a clock with similar case design No. 231 in their 1910 catalogue. That JUF clock however has disc pendulum while this Huber clock has the Huber patented twin-loop pendulum. In any case the data at hand shows Andreas Huber is the maker of the clock shown below. Again we also cannot tell if Huber put his name on the dial of clocks that were supplied to him by other makers.

    As pointed out by John Hubby in his post, Huber started making the Harder-patent year clock around the end of 1895 or early 1896. So this gives us a ‘ not earlier than 1895/1896’ as the date of manufacture for this clock. We do not know if Huber had started the use of serial number starting with number 1 or with a higher 4-digit number. We also do not know for how many years the serial number was in use before it was discontinued. However we know that by 1901 those solid pinion Huber clocks with back plate 1471 have no serial numbers. So quite possibly the serial numbers were stamped on these Huber clocks for no longer than four to five years or maybe shorter.


    Mun C W

    538216281_o-001.jpg 538216298_o.jpg 538216298_o-002.jpg
     
  12. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    #12 etmb61, Jun 10, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
    Mun,

    It says Huber, but isn't that a Hauck movement?

    Also, in an earlier post, that specific clock was shown as a JUF design from their catalog, the cover of which reads "imitations will be prosecuted" so is it even a Huber?

    Kind of looks like a JUF design, made by Hauck, and sold by Huber.

    Thoughts?

    Eric
     
  13. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #13 John Hubby, Jun 10, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2012
    Mun, thanks for posting. Although this clock has a Huber dial, it is my opinion that the movement was made by Ph. Hauck for Huber in 3rd quarter 1904. Huber most likely assembled the clock including providing the dial as they did from late 1905 with movements purchased from both Hauck and JUF that were assembled with identical dials, bezels, bases, etc. The dials on all those clocks had Huber's trade name "Urania" placed at 12:00 above the minute ring on the dial.

    With regard to the movement of this clock, I have 31 such movements now in my database including examples with Plate 1055, 1056, 1441, 1522D, and 1610. Actual examples of each of these plates (except 1522D) have been examined, and the train parts and layout are identical to (and interchangeable with) those Hauck movements that have the click bridge in the vertical position instead of horizontal such as Plate 1043. The click bridges per se are identical and interchangeable as well, so are the crown pieces, movement support posts and finials, bases, etc. etc.

    My data show that these movements with the horizontal placement of the click bridge were made starting with Hauck's first production of 400-Day clocks in second half 1903 and continuing mainly through mid 1905, although one example has been identified being made in very early 1906. Movements with vertical placement of the click bridge (Plate 1043 and similar) were introduced around March/April 1905 and by one year later were the only design made. These plates include Plate 1007, 1043, 1415, 1419, and 1607.

    The most convincing argument that both designs were made by Hauck, and in support of parts interchangeability as already noted, is that the serial numbers for both types are sequentially consistent throughout the transition from a horizontal placement of the click bridge to the vertical placement. This is true with alternating types through the period. In addition, the dies used to stamp the serial numbers through that transition were identical.

    During the production of the horizontal click bridge design, Hauck supplied movements to Huber, Badische (with the BUF logo stamped on the front plate), Bowler & Burdick, and Grivolas. They continued to supply movements to all these third party buyers for quite some time after their movements with vertical placement of the click bridge were introduced. As noted in my first paragraph, the movements supplied to Huber starting in 1905 were assembled with dials bearing their "Urania" trade name on the dial and this same clock was also made with movements supplied by JUF.

    Finally, to the best of my knowledge Huber made only one design of a 400-Day clock movement with solid pinions and Graham escapement and it is the one based on the Harder US and British patents that they purchased in 1895. I have recently arrived at a tentative conclusion that Huber may have decided to stop making this type movement by the end of 1903 or early 1904 and to purchase movements from JUF and Hauck instead. The "Urania" clocks mentioned above support this conclusion, as well as the fact that no movement with the Huber click layout has been found to have been made after the Patent Angemeldet stamp was finally dropped around the end of 1903. Further, not a single one has been found with the Huber 1904 patent tubular suspension guard, whereas both JUF and Hauck started using that guard in late 1904/early 1905. This is still a tentative conclusion but it certainly supports the lack of any Huber click layout solid pinion Graham escapement movements being identified after 1903, and would explain the provenance of the movement of the clock you have posted here.

    Thanks again for bringing this up; I have had the question of the lack of proof of Huber manufacture after 1903 in the back of my mind for quite some time and this was the trigger to bring all my thoughts together. I'm open to comments, questions, and challenges on the conclusions since we all want to get the facts together as accurately as possible.
     
  14. John Hubby

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    Eric, I've addressed the question of who made the clock movement in my earlier post; that was Hauck and it is my opinion the clock was assembled and sold by Huber with the case being purchased from a third party case maker. In this instance I don't think JUF were at all involved. As I mentioned earlier there is ample evidence that Huber purchased movements from Hauck and JUF from 1904 through 1911 for casing and resale, including complete clocks especially from JUF in the 1908-1911 period.

    Regarding your point that this is a JUF design and their statement that "Imitations will be judicially pursued" (Nachahmungen werden gerichtlich verfolgt), my view is that JUF was trying to protect those designs that clearly were made only by them especially some of the Art Nouveau full brass cases and some of their wood case designs.

    However, "many" of the case designs in the JUF 1910 catalog are well documented to have been used by multiple makers (or at least have been documented having different makers' movements) including this one No. 231, which I have documented having JUF, Hauck, and Kienzle movements. Thus, their statement would be on shaky ground for those case designs that were made by third parties for resale to whomever would buy. At least 25% of the clocks illustrated in the catalog fall in that category, in particular those with French cases. Some of them were even used by American makers for their gravity pendulum movements; No. 257 was used by Ansonia for their "Jupiter" model. A few cases were used by at least four 400-Day makers among which were Würth, JUF, Kienzle, Hauck, Bowler & Burdick, and Grivolas.
     
  15. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

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    Hi John ,

    Thank you for your very comprehensive response that certainly puts in proper perspective many issues relating to the Huber clock and Philip Hauck clocks

    I noticed that among the back plates you mentioned that were associated to the Philip Hauck, Plate 1055 1056, 1441, 1522D and 1610 nearly all of them have the same threaded holes and unthreaded holes layout except for Plate 1441. This plate has a ratchet positioning hole that is not found in the other four back plates.


    IMG_4703-002.jpg


    I have a movement that has a back plate that is similar to Plate 1055 .


    Copy of IMG_4643-002.jpg IMG_4706.jpg

    This clock presented me with an opportunity to check if the back plate has a ratchet click positioning hole that may have been obscured by the click spring platform. As it turned out there is one in the back plate. This hole allows the projection from underneath the click spring platform to be locked in position when the click spring is assembled.The hole will then be hidden from view.
    As it stands the back plate of this clock is unlisted in the Repair Guide.


    Copy of IMG_4637-001.jpg IMG_4640.jpg Copy of IMG_4643-003.jpg


    On the other hand quite probably Terwilliger might have inadvertently omitted to include the click positioning hole in Plate 1055 when one was in fact present in the clock back plate on which Plate 1055 was based. We are also unclear if he had not disassembled the click spring in the mistaken believe that no such click positioning hole was present since the hole was not visible with the click spring assembled in position. Given that there were several documented examples of detail omissions in some back plates found in the Repair Guide, this could also be the case for Plate 1055.


    On looking at all the listed Philip Hauck ( under Philip Hass) back plates that were made later where the ratchet bridge is vertically positioned, it is noted that none of these has a ratchet click positioning hole. This is rather interesting since Philip Hauck had this feature in their early clock back plates. JUF on the other hand had done the opposite as they did not have this feature in all their early patent dial clocks but they started to introduce it in those clocks ( with rectangular as well as round movement ) made from 1890 until they ceased production in 1986..

    Mun C W
     

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  16. damiangotch

    damiangotch Registered User

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    John,
    Thank you for the detailed info, the clock of Eric's is identical to one I have just restored, I had calculated that it was circa 1900 from the earlier postings and a Huber based on the click position. The dial is beautiful the 3 and 8 are particularly ornate.
    I also have an earlier Huber c1895 with the velvet base and the same No21 pendulum which I will post separately.

    Damian
     

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  17. John Hubby

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    Mun, thanks for bringing up this point regarding Hauck plates. I also have noticed that all the clocks I have with the early plates (horizontal click bridge placement) do have the click spring positioning hole even though not shown on any of those plates except Plate 1441. I believe this is an error made by whomever drew the plate drawings, one more among the many documented thus far. "Whenever" a new edition is done of the Repair Guide, there will be quite a number of plates now shown as "different" that are in fact the same but the drawings were incorrect.

    I also find it unusual that Hauck stopped using click springs with positioning tabs, although the click layout of the vertical click bridge placement provides for a longer click spring and is placed such that it is unlikely to be pushed out of position when winding the clock or if the mounting screw is not completely tight.
     
  18. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Damian, thanks for posting your Huber clock. The earliest Huber clocks were virtual copies of the JUF-made Harder patent clocks having short movement support pillars and a disc pendulum with no gallery. As best I can determine, these early clocks were made with the click spring positioning hole from the first production and that distinction separates them from JUF production of the same time frame. With regard to your clock, I would estimate its age as 1897-1898 due to (a) the absence of the Patent Angemeldet stamp that was first used in 1899 and (b) the presence of Pendulum No. 21.

    For Huber clocks made in 1899 and later to around 1903, the Patent Angemelded stamp seems to have been applied without exception. We also know that Huber received their designation as Clockmaker to the King in February 1898, and that designation has been documented on clocks without the Patent Angemeldet indicating an 1898 manufacturing date; after that the Patent Angemeldet stamp appears until 1903. The clock Mun posted is the first example we have with that dial stamp but as already discussed the movement was made by Hauck.

    We don't know for certain when Pendulum No. 21 was first introduced, however Bowler and Burdick started their 400-Day clock business in early 1898 using movements purchased from Huber and all those clocks had Pendulum No 21 as is on your clock. Some of them may have actually been made in 1897 but there is no concrete data at this point.

    We will look forward to see your earlier Huber.
     
  19. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    #19 etmb61, Jun 13, 2012
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2012
    John,

    Again, I must question the validity of pendulum 21 as a JUF part. We know the RG says JUF and "must popular" disc pendulum, but with plate 1471. We are fairly certain that 1471 is a Huber.

    From what I've seen, most Hubers have pend 21, so in that respect the RG is correct that it is the most popular pend used with plate 1471.

    As I've observed, there doesn't seen to me to be a most popular disc pend for JUF clocks as the styles I've seen vary greatly (even in the catalog), but if I were going to call it, I'd say pend 22 without the hook extension above the gallery.

    Does your data paint a different picture?

    Does it make sense that if your competitor had the market rights to a patent design, you would let them use your parts on most of their products? Reading the Jewelers' Circular from that period leads me to believe they would have been sued over it. If JUF licenced or furnished pend 21 to Huber, why don't more JUF clocks use it? It seems like a good, high quality part.

    Thoughts?

    Eric
     
  20. John Hubby

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    Eric, even thought the Repair Guide shows JUF as the "maker" of Pendulum 21, there is no evidence available that confirms that point. "IF" it can be attributed to anyone, I would bet it was designed by Huber although we have not yet found any patent info to that effect. Huber used it almost exclusively from the late 1890's through 1903 and very few Huber clocks are found without it during those years.

    It has been found mainly with JUF and Huber clocks although also with Würth and Kienzle, in a few instances with matching serial numbers for the latter two makers. One thing about Huber is that there is ample evidence that they were quite willing to license their inventions to others, among the examples include the Huber twin loop compensating pendulum, the tubular suspension guard, the "C" gimbal escapement, and the use of pin pallets and lantern pinions.

    JUF's involvement was to use pendulum 21 from the late 1890's up to just before WWI, as it is illustrated in their 1910 catalog and examples have been found with JUF clocks over that period. Whether it was licensed from Huber or not we don't know.

    However, it is "not" the most popular disc pendulum used, by far. There is one version of a six-pillar disc that isn't in the repair guide, that has been documented with JUF, Würth, Hauck, and Kienzle clocks from about 1903 (Kienzle 1906) through 1915 that was far more popular based on the number of clocks I have documented in my databases for those four makers. I am certain this pendulum (and a large number of others) was made by a third party supplier.
     
  21. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Fair enough.
     
  22. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I finally have a pendulum 21 on it's way to me!:excited:

    Now I just have to tackle the missing finials.

    Eric
     
  23. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Eric, looks like you are in the home stretch on this one. :thumb: Post the results when you have it done.
     
  24. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    I'm making progress, but the movement will wait until I get the finials sorted out.

    Eric
     

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  25. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    A bit late but here is the completed restoration minus the finials. I have the replacements, just have not gotten around to the repair. Runs good!

    Eric
     

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  26. pollythecat

    pollythecat Registered User

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    Better late than never! It looks good Eric and I quite like the base design.
     
  27. John Hubby

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    #27 John Hubby, Aug 23, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Eric, super job of restoration!

    Polly, this base design was first used by Gustav Becker in early 1902 when they introduced their first 400-Day movement fitted with a Graham deadbeat escapement. It is evident the design was offered by a third party jobber as it was quickly adopted by Huber and JUF before mid-year 1902. Huber used it until they ceased production shortly after the U.S. patent for the Huber twin loop temperature compensating pendulum was granted in February 1904. JUF used it until mid-1907 but largely for clocks made for Huber. Hauck used this base design from 1903 to 1905, Würth used it for a few clocks made for Bowler & Burdick in 1905 and 1906.

    There is one key difference between the version used by GB and all the others. GB had a stud mounted through the base near the rear of the pan inside the dome, evidently to provide a more stable base assembly. This is in a position that is under the disc pendulum so not seen unless the pendulum is removed, but is present on all GB bases of this design documented to date.
     
  28. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Finally the finials are replaced! Only took me six years.

    New_finials.jpg


    drilling setup.jpg
    I drilled out the remains of the old finials with this setup (power off of course) and even managed to do it without damaging the threads.

    Eric
     
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  29. Dave T

    Dave T Registered User
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    Nice work! Makes me want a Sherline!
     
  30. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
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    Dave,

    Learning to use the lathe has me looking for things to make/fix.

    Eric
     
    Dave T likes this.

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