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Anker German clock spring barrel bulge and 2nd wheel teeth bent

Dave T

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I've been trying to deal with these issues given my limited tools and ability.
The strike spring barrel has a slight bulge and two barely noticeable cracks. This barrel is about the size of a Hermle, (larger than a 40, and smaller than a 41). The winding ratchet wheel has some bent over teeth, and the 2nd wheel has about 7 slightly bent teeth.

I've cleaned and assembled the strike train without the spring barrel to test the meshing of the second and third wheel, and can't tell any difference when the gears mesh on the 7 bad teeth. I've tried to straighten them, but so far haven't made any visible difference. I'm not equipped to replace those teeth. The picture doesn't clearly show the bent teeth on the second wheel, but it's there.

Just wondering if anyone has any ideas on how I might approach these issues.

anker second wheel teeth.jpg Anker strike spring barrell bulge 1.jpg Anker strike spring barrell bulge 2.jpg Anker strike spring barrell bulge 3.jpg Anker strike spring barrell bulge 4.jpg anker second wheel teeth 2.jpg
 
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Schatznut

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I wish I could offer some encouragement but it looks like you've got a messy one on your hands. Have you popped off the cap on the barrel to see what's going on inside? If you can get the mainspring out of the barrel, you may be able to reform the barrel by making a simple tool out of a piece of wood dowel close to the ID of the barrel with a small relief drilled in it for the spring anchor. Clamp this in your vise and using a plastic-headed hammer, tap the deformed area gently and nudge it back into place. If the stress cracks in the barrel around the anchor rivet are minor and it is still solidly attached, it should be OK. If there are any stress cracks on the end of the mainspring, cut it off just beyond where the damage has occurred, anneal it and drill a new hole. Regarding the wheel, perhaps others with more experience than I can suggest a way to salvage it, but I'd try to find a replacement wheel instead. And I'd suggest looking at the pinion of the next wheel to see if it sustained any damaged when this wheel skipped against it. Good luck.
 
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Dave T

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Regarding the wheel, perhaps others with more experience than I can suggest a way to salvage it, but I'd try to find a replacement wheel instead. And I'd suggest looking at the pinion of the next wheel to see if it sustained any damaged when this wheel skipped against it. Good luck.
Thank you. I haven't removed the mainspring yet. Was waiting on some advice before I do. I know it works now, but not sure if I remove it.
As for the wheel, I doubt I can find a replacement unless someone knows of an interchange. This is the first Anker Clock I've seen, and haven't found any parts on the net.
It looks to be about 1950s vintage, and the quality is not as good as a lot of the older stuff.
 

Dick Feldman

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How about a bent arbor on the second wheel? That is common.
Many German barrels are actually two pieces. One is the gear and the other is the sleeve/cap which is soldered into a groove in the wheel. If so, the solder joint will be almost invisible or invisible on the original. If that is the case, you may be able to solder a more stable sleeve onto the gear portion. I have done that before using parts from my bin, primarily Hermle barrels as a source. I would be more concerned with the cracks in the sleeve than the bulge. Probably the sleeve should be replaced. If yours is not a two piece barrel, it is possible to separate the two parts, machine a groove into the gear and transplant an appropriate sleeve and cap to the gear. For that repair, it will be almost necessary to have a lathe and or mill.
The ratchet wheel/click assembly was probably the initial cause of the problem. I have found ratchet wheels to be kind of universal and have been able to make substitutions from other scrapped clocks. Click assemblies are often ignored but will cause the problem again if not addressed. There is an awful lot of force on that part of the movement.
Bent teeth on the second wheel is not good news. Those take a lot of strain and any attempt to straighten them will 1. weaken the teeth or 2. break them off.
That clock may not justify extensive repairs but if those are not done properly, the clock will become a hazard.
We all are faced with situations beyond our abilities. It is wise, sometimes, to job out those more difficult tasks. That is a much better solution than an incomplete or shoddy repair and a dangerous clock.
Best of Luck,
Dick
 
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Dick Feldman

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I just looked over your photos again and found the photo showing your second wheel is not clear enough to see the bent teeth. Someone with skill and lots of experience may be able to straighten those teeth and make the repair last. I have done it but it is normally not possible without heat and to re harden the heated area afterwards.

If those are bent, the shock force traveled beyond the second wheel, probably doing damage further up the train. I would expect the third wheel arbor to be bent at the pinion. I would expect to see the same bend in the second arbor.

Now is the time to decide if you want to patch the clock together or to make it a safe, long term reliable machine.

Best of luck,

Let us know how you do,

Dick
 
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Dave T

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Thank you Dick, Appreciate the time you took to evaluate this for me. I'm considering what to do about this within my abilities. I'm almost at the conclusion that I can't repair it properly and will advise the owner accordingly.
As usual, I'm doing this as a favor at no charge. And I doubt the owner wants to invest in it.

I'll study your comments further before we make that decision. I don't think I have any bent pivots on the 2nd or 3rd wheel, but I'll take a closer look.
 

shutterbug

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I agree that the issue probably came about because of the click failing. The cracks in the barrel are dangerous as is, but can be repaired fairly easily. The click wheel can also be reshaped and made to work. The issue with the wheels does need to be addressed. If you are uncomfortable with that part of the repair, there's no shame in farming that part of the job out to someone else. I've had to do that a couple of times myself, and just pass on the price of the repair to the customer without adding anything for myself. Your barrel can be strengthened either internally or externally, and there are methods detailed in other threads here. Use search to find them. Of course, there's always the possibility of finding a donor movement to steal parts from too.
 

Dick Feldman

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In making decisions on that train, consider the other train in the system. You likely will be faced with the other train failing for the same reason soon. Normally the two trains in a clock are wound the same number of times and subjected to the same conditions. What you have described can best be solved by prevention of the root cause.
D
 

Dave T

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I'll ask the owner if he's willing to put any money in it! I'm guessing cost of repair is more than it's worth. A good option would be a parts movement, but so far I haven't identified it. I did see the same clock listed as a Linden?? I've tried to upload some pictures but my email server is down right now. It has a V shaped half plate that retains the mainsprings if that helps at all.
It's a triple chime and the only marking on it is P.L. 42, for pendulum length.
 

Dick Feldman

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If you find a replacement movement, It likely will have the same flaws or potential flaws as the one you have. There is no reason to expect anything else.
D
 

Dave T

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If you find a replacement movement, It likely will have the same flaws or potential flaws as the one you have. There is no reason to expect anything else.
D
I agree, but if I got lucky and found one with good barrels and gears, between the two of them, I could rebuild it. And my only other alternative is to send it out. Off the top of my head, I imagine that would be in the $200 range at least, and most likely more than that. Not saying that's a bad deal, but I'm not the owner.
 

Rod Schaffter

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That appears to be a Gebruder Jauch movement. There are a couple on eBay but no 42 PL of that type...

Cheers, Rod
 
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Dave T

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Just found the same movement on youtube: This guy also thinks it's a Jauch.

 

bangster

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Nobody has suggested a hose clamp on the barrel to squeeze in the bulges, followed by
soldering the cracks.

So I guess I won't either.
 

Dave T

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wow

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Dave, I have that identical movement on my bench now. I am putting it back together. Have all wheels in place but have not put springs and barrels back in yet. I’ll look through my parts bins tomorrow and see if I have that barrel and wheel assembly. I’ll report back.
 
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Dave T

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Thanks again Will, I appreciate your looking for me. Been searching ebay but so far nothing.
 

Dave T

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While looking for a source of parts I decided to clean the other two springs. So I figure it's about time for me to ask another stupid question.
In order to remove the spring from the barrel it appears the ratchet wheel needs to come off. How difficult should that be, OR, how tight should that ratchet be secured on the end of the arbor when I re-assemble it.
Looks to me like it just needs to be in place when putting the movement back together, as long as the square end of the arbor fits snug in the wheel.
Anker strike spring barrell bulge 1.jpg
 
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Rod Schaffter

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The ratchet wheel ts a press fit. When replacing it I used gentle taps using a flat punch on the corners to make sure they were seated.

Cheers, Rod
 
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Dave T

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Thanks Rod, I got it off without much resistance. I'm assuming it won't need to be supertight as long as the four sides of the square arbor fit snug.
 
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Schatznut

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Pop the cover off by rapping the arbor on your vise. Once it's exposed, let us know what you see. Removing springs without a mainspring tool is not recommended. There's a post circulating from one long-time member regarding a spring that got away from him. I don't recall if it was seven stitches or nine necessary to put him right, but the message is clear - there's a lot of potential energy in these springs that is just looking for an excuse to turn into kinetic energy.
 

Dave T

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Pop the cover off by rapping the arbor on your vise. Once it's exposed, let us know what you see. Removing springs without a mainspring tool is not recommended. There's a post circulating from one long-time member regarding a spring that got away from him. I don't recall if it was seven stitches or nine necessary to put him right, but the message is clear - there's a lot of potential energy in these springs that is just looking for an excuse to turn into kinetic energy.
Thanks, I just found that thread the other day again. It's worth posting every now and then. I'm fully away of the danger in handling these springs. I just completed the chime side spring, and it was fine with no issues. That spring is nearly an inch wide! And I have a Keystone spring winder that I use with caution.

I popped the cover off the bulging strike barrel strike and don't see anything at all that looks unusual.
 

Dave T

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I have a Jauch book, and trying to figure out what you may have, it's mostly written in German, I am guessing your movement may be number 11. Measure the outside of the barrel and the heigth, maybe someone has one in an old movement that would work for you. I have some old barrels, and I would look and see if any would work. Alternately there are people who can repair or make a new one for you.

Larry Pearson, *FNAWCC 335863
Dave, I have that identical movement on my bench now. I am putting it back together. Have all wheels in place but have not put springs and barrels back in yet. I’ll look through my parts bins tomorrow and see if I have that barrel and wheel assembly. I’ll report back.
Will, I've got this clock back together, and it's running well, but I've got a chime timing issue that so far I can't get my head around.

The problem I see is the relationship between the four quarter cam on the front of the movement compared to the notch in the disc on the third wheel. Right now the clock chimes on all the quarters as it should but occasionally stops during the 3rd quarter chime. And the notch on the cam is stopping it.
So, the real question is, where does the notch go? If I understand correctly, this is the warning correction cam, and should be at the notch at the end of the 3rd chime. But trying to figure out a way to slip it on the arbor to the correct position. Right now it's under the stop arm in the blue circle.
Jauch triple chime timing 1.jpg Jauch triple chime timing.jpg
 
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Dick Feldman

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Will, I've got this clock back together, and it's running well, but I've got a chime timing issue that so far I can't get my head around.
Dave,
Have I missed some part of this? Were you able to source some parts?
When I looked at your photos above, I noticed brass click wheels.
Almost every one of those movements I have seen have had bad click wheels and that may have been the original source of the problems.
I think that Hermle steel click wheels will interchange without any modification and would be a better choice than the originals made from brass.
The chime sequence on those clocks is a pain to set up. It seems like it takes a lot of trial and error as the adjustments are sensitive.
Best,
Dick
 

wow

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Will, I've got this clock back together, and it's running well, but I've got a chime timing issue that so far I can't get my head around.

The problem I see is the relationship between the four quarter cam on the front of the movement compared to the notch in the disc on the third wheel. Right now the clock chimes on all the quarters as it should but occasionally stops during the 3rd quarter chime. And the notch on the cam is stopping it.
So, the real question is, where does the notch go? If I understand correctly, this is the warning correction cam, and should be at the notch at the end of the 3rd chime. But trying to figure out a way to slip it on the arbor to the correct position. Right now it's under the stop arm in the blue circle.
View attachment 661079 View attachment 661080
Dave, the cam you have circled in blue is, as you know, the chime correction cam. It has one low spot. When the pin that rides on that cam is in the low spot, the large cam on the front must be at the 3/4 position and the small cam must be down in it’s low point. In this position, the chime train will not activate except when the center arbor cam reaches the highest lifting point which is on the hour. Once you get that 3/4 set-up right, the hammer sequence is adjusted on the rear of the movement by loosening a set screw and turning the chime barrel until it is right. Hope this helps.
Will
 

Dave T

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Dave,
Have I missed some part of this? Were you able to source some parts?
When I looked at your photos above, I noticed brass click wheels.
Almost every one of those movements I have seen have had bad click wheels and that may have been the original source of the problems.
I think that Hermle steel click wheels will interchange without any modification and would be a better choice than the originals made from brass.
The chime sequence on those clocks is a pain to set up. It seems like it takes a lot of trial and error as the adjustments are sensitive.
Best,
Dick
Dick,
No, you haven't missed any posts. I just didn't explain properly. I attempted to straighten the teeth on the 2nd wheel without much success. But I put the train back together and the gears seemed to mesh properly without any resistance. So evidently they aren't as bad as they seem to appear. I cleaned the mainsprings and saw no indications of any imperfection inside. Just the slight bulge outside as shown. I did straighten the teeth on the click wheel and tested it carefully. Wasn't aware that the Hermle wheel might interchange. I may make that change yet. That might help avoid a disaster for the owner. I've told him about the issues, and have advised him to proceed accordingly.
Couldn't find any replacement parts, so I decided to put it back together as is and see what happens. It's been running on the bench for several days now with no issues. (I wound it very carefully).
Dave, the cam you have circled in blue is, as you know, the chime correction cam. It has one low spot. When the pin that rides on that cam is in the low spot, the large cam on the front must be at the 3/4 position and the small cam must be down in it’s low point. In this position, the chime train will not activate except when the center arbor cam reaches the highest lifting point which is on the hour. Once you get that 3/4 set-up right, the hammer sequence is adjusted on the rear of the movement by loosening a set screw and turning the chime barrel until it is right. Hope this helps.
Will
Will, I finally discovered that this movement or a very similar one is covered in Conover's Chime Clock book. So, I properly set chime correction cam. I should have checked the strike star wheel cam first, but didn't, so I've got a small adjustment that needs to be made to the star wheel in order for the strike arm to rest with no contact.
Otherwise the clock is performing nicely.
 

wow

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Dick,
No, you haven't missed any posts. I just didn't explain properly. I attempted to straighten the teeth on the 2nd wheel without much success. But I put the train back together and the gears seemed to mesh properly without any resistance. So evidently they aren't as bad as they seem to appear. I cleaned the mainsprings and saw no indications of any imperfection inside. Just the slight bulge outside as shown. I did straighten the teeth on the click wheel and tested it carefully. Wasn't aware that the Hermle wheel might interchange. I may make that change yet. That might help avoid a disaster for the owner. I've told him about the issues, and have advised him to proceed accordingly.
Couldn't find any replacement parts, so I decided to put it back together as is and see what happens. It's been running on the bench for several days now with no issues. (I wound it very carefully).

Will, I finally discovered that this movement or a very similar one is covered in Conover's Chime Clock book. So, I properly set chime correction cam. I should have checked the strike star wheel cam first, but didn't, so I've got a small adjustment that needs to be made to the star wheel in order for the strike arm to rest with no contact.
Otherwise the clock is performing nicely.
Glad you got it, Dave.
 

Dick Feldman

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I have many reasons that clock should not be returned to the owner in its present condition.

If that is customer clock and you are charging for any part of the repair, you can be held legally liable for a future failure. I am sure your state has product liability laws that make you vulnerable to civil action as well as criminal action. Liability due to your negligence.

By their nature, those clocks had a weak click system. The clock you have already has had one failure and not too much has been done to prevent a future failure in any of the three trains. The cracked barrel is a land mine that can explode at any time. The bent teeth on the second wheel probably cannot take another shock. Those brass click wheels may have been part of the reason for the original failure. The click rivets likely are loose, allowing the clicks wander and not be reliable.

Mechanically, that clock in its present condition, is unstable and not safe.

Your responsibility, your conscience.

Dick
 
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shutterbug

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Be sure to teach your customer how to ease the key back into the click. ;)
 
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Dave T

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Thanks Dick, I don't disagree with you. As I have mentioned, I don't charge for repairs. And the owner knows I'm not a professional.
I will reinforce the issues with this clock and advise him about winding this one carefully.
 

JimmyOz

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Mechanically, that clock in its present condition, is unstable and not safe.
I totally agree with Dick on this. as I read Dave T's posts, there has been nothing done to address the issues in the movement. This is a case of 'Not if, but When' it lets go and the person (if holding the key) could be injured. I would think Dave T would be better to let the springs down and give the owner their clock back and say that it is a bit beyond him, at this time, to address all the issues and that the owner should take it to another repairer. Dave T, if you let it out of your work shop like it is and something happens, it is going to be your reputation that gets hit, whether you charge or not, good intentions are not always rewarded!
 

Dave T

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What this clock needs to be safe and correct is a spring barrel, click spring, and a 2nd wheel.
I don't know of any local area shops that I feel confident taking it to.
And so far I have not been able to find these parts, but the barrel can most likely be repaired.

Does anyone here want to give me an estimate of cost if I send it to you?
 
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shutterbug

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Where do you live, Dave? Someone here is probably close by.
 

Dave T

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East of Raleigh, NC What I would really like to do is find some parts. I understand other Jauch models most likely use the same barrel. Maybe I need to list in parts wanted.

I just read Willie's suggestion about clamping the mainspring to reduce the bulge but haven't tried that yet. Not sure what type of clamp to use. All I can think of is an automotive radiator clamp.
 

wow

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East of Raleigh, NC What I would really like to do is find some parts. I understand other Jauch models most likely use the same barrel. Maybe I need to list in parts wanted.

I just read Willie's suggestion about clamping the mainspring to reduce the bulge but haven't tried that yet. Not sure what type of clamp to use. All I can think of is an automotive radiator clamp.
If you can find a steel pipe of some kind whose diameter is such that it fits tightly inside the barrel, you can cut a slot in it where the rivet is and slide it inside. Then heat slightly and tap the bulge out while keeping the round surface inside. Or Willies clamp may do it. Without tapping with a hammer.
 
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