Anderton (??) London Fusee movement

[Mikie T]

I wanted to call the maker of this movement "AnderSon" but the letter in question sure looks a "T".
Any of you guys with reference books see a London Maker whose name is Anderton?

Thanks for looking everyone.

Mike

 

[JTD]

Don't know why you want to call this fellow Anderson, it is clearly Anderton! My copy of Baillie (which is old) lists three watchmakers named Anderton working in London in 18th century.

I don't know enough about watches to date yours, but there are others who will. Nice looking watch.

JTD

 

[Mikie T]

Oh yes, you are right. I suppose I just thought Anderton was an unusual name.
Thanks for the info concerning the 3 - 18th century Andertons in London.
Yes, I do hope someone else will chime in with a little more info. The plate columns are round but it does have a Tompion regulator.... (1830's maybe??)
I really need to get myself a Britten's or some good early watch book.

Mike

 

[gmorse]

Hi Mike,

Tompion disc regulators were largely superseded by the Bosley lever type by the 1820s, so it's around 1800 I think.

There are some holes in the edge of the balance cock which were drilled by a previous repairer for banking pins to alter the banking for some reason. The pin in the balance rim should bank on the shoulders of the cock table.

Regards,

Graham

 

[DaveyG]

Baillie lists four Andertons of London but only one of them is within the timeframe of this movement I would say:

William Anderton: apprenticed 1805: elected to the Clockmaker's Company 1818.

The others listed were all John, one apprenticed 1716, the second apprenticed 1718 and the only information for the 3rd - died 1765.

 

[Mikie T]

Yep, I have see a couple more Wm. Anderton watches on the net. So... looks like this movement would be 1810 to 1820.
Thanks everyone!

Mike

 

[Gavin Dudley]

I wanted to call the maker of this movement "AnderSon" but the letter in question sure looks a "T".
Any of you guys with reference books see a London Maker whose name is Anderton?

Thanks for looking everyone.

Mike View attachment 457691 View attachment 457692 View attachment 457693

William Anderton

I wanted to call the maker of this movement "AnderSon" but the letter in question sure looks a "T".
Any of you guys with reference books see a London Maker whose name is Anderton?

Thanks for looking everyone.

Mike View attachment 457691 View attachment 457692 View attachment 457693

William Anderton 1790-1870, apprenticed 1805, was my 4th great grand uncle. His father Joseph Anderton, 1760-1819, my 5th great grandfather, was a watch maker in Clerkenwell. We think they may be related to John Anderton, 1700-1765 ish, London clockmaker. Note that I think the 3 John Anderton's mentioned in another comment are the same person. He changed master, hence 2 apprenticeship dates.

 

[zacandy]

Wow was that google alerts that brought you here? Lovely balance cock

 

[Davand]

William Anderton

William Anderton 1790-1870, apprenticed 1805, was my 4th great grand uncle. His father Joseph Anderton, 1760-1819, my 5th great grandfather, was a watch maker in Clerkenwell. We think they may be related to John Anderton, 1700-1765 ish, London clockmaker. Note that I think the 3 John Anderton's mentioned in another comment are the same person. He changed master, hence 2 apprenticeship dates.

I am also related to William Anderton. I have one of his watches, which has been handed down to me through the family. I believe the Silver Hallmark is London 1835. I haven't yet been able to find other examples online. A snapshot is attached. Of course I would be interested to know more about this watch.

 

[Dr. Jon]

Welcome to this forum!

From teh phots we can tell you the minute hand can be repaired. For moe information we need to see photos of the case makings and the movement.

 

[Gavin Dudley]

I am also related to William Anderton. I have one of his watches, which has been handed down to me through the family. I believe the Silver Hallmark is London 1835. I haven't yet been able to find other examples online. A snapshot is attached. Of course I would be interested to know more about this watch.

View attachment 645572

A beautiful watch. How wonderful to have it in the family!

 

[Davand]

Welcome to this forum!

From teh phots we can tell you the minute hand can be repaired. For moe information we need to see photos of the case makings and the movement.

Many thanks for your kind welcome, and for letting me join the forum.
I'm delighted to know that the minute hand can be repaired. It has always been loose, like this.
Attached are a couple more photos. Presumably the movement was actually made by William Sibbald.
I believe the hallmark dates the watch to 1835.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Davand,

Attached are a couple more photos. Presumably the movement was actually made by William Sibbald.
I believe the hallmark dates the watch to 1835.

Whose is the signature on the movement itself, is it Anderton or Sibbald? The cap comes off if you slide the crescent-shaped locking piece clockwise. It's unlikely that either of these two gentlemen had much to do with the actual making of the watch, but a picture of the movement may be revealing.

The hallmarks show London, 1835/6 and the case maker was William Rowlands at 32 Lower Smith Street, Northampton Square, (from Philip Priestley's book on English watchcase hallmarks).

Regards,

Graham

 

[Davand]

Hi Davand,


Whose is the signature on the movement itself, is it Anderton or Sibbald? The cap comes off if you slide the crescent-shaped locking piece clockwise. It's unlikely that either of these two gentlemen had much to do with the actual making of the watch, but a picture of the movement may be revealing.

The hallmarks show London, 1835/6 and the case maker was William Rowlands at 32 Lower Smith Street, Northampton Square, (from Philip Priestley's book on English watchcase hallmarks).

Regards,

Graham

Hi gmorse,
Many thanks for your message and information.
Attached are a couple more photos, but they're not so clear, unfortunately. However, the name is again William Sibbald.
Does the movement provide any more insight?
Kind Regards,
David

 

[gmorse]

Hi David,

There isn't much to see on the top plate, everything is rather plain, but something very odd is happening between the plates. It's an English fusee lever movement, and the fusee chain appears to be in there but wrapped around a roll of paper; the picture isn't clear enough to see what else is in there, but in summary, it needs some work doing!

The two different names are unusual, but not unknown, and it may be that the dial was replaced at some stage. The movement would have been made in one of the main UK watchmaking centres, Liverpool, Coventry or London or even a combination of these.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Davand]

Hi David,

There isn't much to see on the top plate, everything is rather plain, but something very odd is happening between the plates. It's an English fusee lever movement, and the fusee chain appears to be in there but wrapped around a roll of paper; the picture isn't clear enough to see what else is in there, but in summary, it needs some work doing!

The two different names are unusual, but not unknown, and it may be that the dial was replaced at some stage. The movement would have been made in one of the main UK watchmaking centres, Liverpool, Coventry or London or even a combination of these.

Regards,

Graham

Dear Graham,
I thought that I had successfully sent you a message a few days ago, but I can't see it now so I'm not sure if you received it.
I'm re-sending a few more photos that are a bit clearer than the previous ones.
It certainly looks like the chain is wrapped around a little roll of paper, just as you said.
Kind Regards,
David

 

[gmorse]

Hi David,

Thanks for posting more pictures; goodness knows why the chain has been stuffed in like that!

I thought that I had successfully sent you a message a few days ago, but I can't see it now so I'm not sure if you received it.

No, I haven't received a conversation from you, but I've just sent you one so that you can see how it works, and reply if you wish.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Davand]

Hi David,

Thanks for posting more pictures; goodness knows why the chain has been stuffed in like that!



No, I haven't received a conversation from you, but I've just sent you one so that you can see how it works, and reply if you wish.

Regards,

Graham

Hi Graham,
Thank you.
I'm also surprised that the movement is from William Sibbald. However, I appreciate that the movements were all actually made at a few manufacturing centres (as I now think I understand it).
Ideally, I would find a working Anderton movement, from the appropriate time period, and replace the Sibbald movement with it.
I am related to William Anderton, and I wouldn't have thought William himself would be using movements from other watchmakers. What I mean by this is that the watch was passed down through the family. It wasn't just a random watch, where someone had replaced the original movement.
I wonder if someone had wrapped the chain like this, planning to make a necessary repair at a later date.
It's a mystery to me.
Kind Regards,
David

 

[Chris Radek]

You are absolutely right that this is because someone wanted to preserve it to be repaired later.

Fusee chains are very strong as long as you pull on them as expected, and bend them only in the expected directions. When they're hanging out loose, they get damaged very easily. Wrapping it up like this and sticking it inside the watch was done so it would not get damaged or lost.

 

[Davand]

You are absolutely right that this is because someone wanted to preserve it to be repaired later.

Fusee chains are very strong as long as you pull on them as expected, and bend them only in the expected directions. When they're hanging out loose, they get damaged very easily. Wrapping it up like this and sticking it inside the watch was done so it would not get damaged or lost.

Hi Chris,
Thank you.
I wonder if it could still be repaired at some point in the future.
As I mentioned earlier, perhaps it would be even better to replace the movement with a working Anderton one from the correct time period. That's if I could find one of course.
Kind Regards,
David

 

[Chris Radek]

Usually, a chain being off means either the chain broke or the mainspring broke. Neither problem is insurmountable at all. Sometimes when this happens at full wind, the chain whips around violently and breaks other things too, like sometimes a lever pivot, and that needs to be fixed too. Again, quite possible to repair.

The only things that make a watch generally unrepairable are gross damage like from water or fire, or extensive damage done by an unqualified person.

 

[Davand]

Usually, a chain being off means either the chain broke or the mainspring broke. Neither problem is insurmountable at all. Sometimes when this happens at full wind, the chain whips around violently and breaks other things too, like sometimes a lever pivot, and that needs to be fixed too. Again, quite possible to repair.

The only things that make a watch generally unrepairable are gross damage like from water or fire, or extensive damage done by an unqualified person.

Hi Chris,
Thank you. That's good to know. Just as well I don't have a key to wind the watch, as I probably would have tried to without having looked at the inner workings.
Eventually I would like to have the watch repaired, polished, and returned to its former working condition.
Best Wishes,
David

 

[gmorse]

Hi David,

Without knowing the details of your ancestor's business, in general the names in signatures, both on movements and on dials, were those of the retailers who sold them. The fact that your watch has a different name on the dial doesn't necessarily mean that the movement isn't original, it may just be that Mr Anderton sourced it in a slightly different way. Retailers who were listed as 'watchmakers' in adverts and trade directories had a wide variety of business models, from actual manufacturing facilities, through final finishing of 'raw' movements, simple 'inspection', down to straightforward selling of the finished products they bought in complete from the Liverpool, Coventry or London workshops. London finished watches, even from the very top end of the trade by the likes of Vulliamy, Dent, Frodsham etc, started life in one of the first two areas and were completed and cased in the Clerkenwell district. The more modest 'bread and butter' part of the trade, which accounted for the greater proportion, would have been completed and cased in Liverpool or Coventry, including any engraving or other signatures.

Many case makers working in the Liverpool and Coventry areas would register their marks in London as well as their more local assay offices in Chester or Birmingham, (Liverpool has never had an assay office), although in your example, William Rowlands was registered at a London address.

Since the Sibbald movement may well have been in that case from the beginning, if it had been bought in by Anderton for some reason, it's part of the history of the watch. An examination of the dismantled watch may reveal whether the dial has been replaced, but it will probably remain a mystery. I suppose you haven't inherited any documentation from your ancestor? Ledgers and work books rarely survive but where they do they're a most interesting and important historical resource.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Davand]

Hi David,

Without knowing the details of your ancestor's business, in general the names in signatures, both on movements and on dials, were those of the retailers who sold them. The fact that your watch has a different name on the dial doesn't necessarily mean that the movement isn't original, it may just be that Mr Anderton sourced it in a slightly different way. Retailers who were listed as 'watchmakers' in adverts and trade directories had a wide variety of business models, from actual manufacturing facilities, through final finishing of 'raw' movements, simple 'inspection', down to straightforward selling of the finished products they bought in complete from the Liverpool, Coventry or London workshops. London finished watches, even from the very top end of the trade by the likes of Vulliamy, Dent, Frodsham etc, started life in one of the first two areas and were completed and cased in the Clerkenwell district. The more modest 'bread and butter' part of the trade, which accounted for the greater proportion, would have been completed and cased in Liverpool or Coventry, including any engraving or other signatures.

Many case makers working in the Liverpool and Coventry areas would register their marks in London as well as their more local assay offices in Chester or Birmingham, (Liverpool has never had an assay office), although in your example, William Rowlands was registered at a London address.

Since the Sibbald movement may well have been in that case from the beginning, if it had been bought in by Anderton for some reason, it's part of the history of the watch. An examination of the dismantled watch may reveal whether the dial has been replaced, but it will probably remain a mystery. I suppose you haven't inherited any documentation from your ancestor? Ledgers and work books rarely survive but where they do they're a most interesting and important historical resource.

Regards,

Graham

Hi Graham,

Thank you very much for this fascinating insight, which is much appreciated.
I have no knowledge of any surviving ledgers or workbooks, unfortunately.
At some point, in the future, I will try to have the watch repaired.
Kind Regards,
David