Anatomy of a Grande Sonnerie

[mlcampbell]

I thought about this thread last night while helping my daughter with biology. One of her labs is a dissection test where the instructor has a particular specimen cut open and the student must successfully identify them. In conjunction with what someone told me about the grande sonnerie movement, i.e. the insides are a piece of cake, but learn what all the stuff on the front does, I watched YouTube videos and compared them to my movement as I moved the minute hand around.

Thus, I made the photo below from my movement and would appreciate a "theory lesson" as it were, if any were so inclined. Moderators, feel free to move it appropriately. Since it's not specifically a repair, I thought it would fit in better as a general discussion.

Here's the photo. Forgive the labelling fonts etc.



I marked (obviously) the parts whose roles I haven't completely identified with question marks, and labelled others, perhaps incorrectly.

At present, the movement doesn't repeat the hour on the first three quarters. The rack on the right does not get the impulse that lets it go all the way back to release the hour rack, so far as I can tell. The little 'star wheel' at the bottom left only seems to advance at the top of the hour (on mine).

Thanks for all input. Feel free to enlighten or make sport as you will, it's a learning experience for me.

Les

 

[Brian Smith]

For these clocks...all you have to remember is this... the neck bone is connected to the thigh bone and the thigh bone is connected to the toe bone and the toe bone is connected to dog bone... etc.

 

[shutterbug]

The large arrow and question mark at the lower left side is the snail. It determines the number of strikes at the hour. I suspect you knew that, though The Grand Sonnerie is, I believe, a repeating strike clock. I haven't yet had the pleasure of working on one. It re-strikes the hour, but I don't remember at what frequency. I'm sure some of the mystery levers are involved in that process.

 

[soaringjoy]

From my amateur's viewpoint, about all I can say, is that along with complicated chiming
movements, the Grande Sonnerie striking movements of French or Viennese origins are
considered the "high art" of clockmaking.
I do have theoretical literature about the Grande Sonneries in German, but alone reading it makes
me dizzy, without having a movement to study.
Generally spoken, the Grande Sonnerie strikes the quarters and then repeats the past hour.
The hour strike is also repeated a minute or so after the full hour; that is, the clock strikes the
hours twice.
Even more complicated Grande Sonneries had a 24 hour system with an automatic switch from
Grande to Petite Sonnerie - which then only struck the quarters for 12 hours.

This is the point where I'll have to pass the ball to the next player...

 

[Richard T.]

I think there is a bit of confusion here between "grand Sonnerie " and the hour repeats of a Comtoise clock. The GS that I have and those that I have seen, does not repeat the hour two minutes after the top of the hour. Comtoise clocks do. The rest of the strike sequence is as posted above.

 

[Richard T.]

I thought about this thread last night while helping my daughter with biology. One of her labs is a dissection test where the instructor has a particular specimen cut open and the student must successfully identify them. In conjunction with what someone told me about the grande sonnerie movement, i.e. the insides are a piece of cake, but learn what all the stuff on the front does, I watched YouTube videos and compared them to my movement as I moved the minute hand around.

Thus, I made the photo below from my movement and would appreciate a "theory lesson" as it were, if any were so inclined. Moderators, feel free to move it appropriately. Since it's not specifically a repair, I thought it would fit in better as a general discussion.

Here's the photo. Forgive the labelling fonts etc.



I marked (obviously) the parts whose roles I haven't completely identified with question marks, and labelled others, perhaps incorrectly.

At present, the movement doesn't repeat the hour on the first three quarters. The rack on the right does not get the impulse that lets it go all the way back to release the hour rack, so far as I can tell. The little 'star wheel' at the bottom left only seems to advance at the top of the hour (on mine).

Thanks for all input. Feel free to enlighten or make sport as you will, it's a learning experience for me.

Les

The advance of the star wheel at the top of the hour is as it should be. It should not advance before completion of the third quarter hour repeat and should advance as close to the top of the hour as possible. This prepares for the correct count of the hour after completion of the fourth quarter strike.

 

[Ralph]

"The hour strike is also repeated a minute or so after the full hour; that is, the clock strikes the
hours twice.
Even more complicated Grande Sonneries had a 24 hour system with an automatic switch from
Grande to Petite Sonnerie - which then only struck the quarters for 12 hours."

I don't agree with either of those statements. I have never seen a Grande Sonnerie clock strike the hours a second time after the hours have struck . It might be a characteristic of Morbier Grand Sonnerie clocks, which are quite rare and I don't claim any familiarity with them. The usual Grande Sonnerie clocks you encounter, Viennese and French, are uniquely different. The Viennese strike each quarter followed by the hour. At the hour it strikes 4 quarters and the new hour. French clocks, two train carriage type, will strike the hour, followed by the quarter at each quarter. except at the hour. At the hour the quarters will be blocked out and only the new hour will be struck.

Grande Sonnerie and Petite Sonnerie differ in that GS will give hours and quarters at each hour. PS will only give the quarters at the quarter. If they have repeat mechanisms, both will give the hours and quarters on demand, with the differences of the Viennese and French methods, as described above, being present.

I have not seen Petite Sonnerie on Viennese clocks.

All of the above is describing 19th and early 20th century operation.

Exceptions are often found in the world of horology.

Ralph

 

[Ralph]

It doesn't repeat or it doesn't strike the hours at the quarters?

When the quarter rack is released and rotated CCW, it's left most end should release the hour rack detent. At the same time the warning lever will be allowed to rotate a few degrees CW under tension of the it's fine wire spring. It will keep the hour train from operating until the quarter rack is gathered to back it's resting position. At the time the the notch in the rack tail will pull the warning lever CCW against it's spring tension and allow the hour train release. The hour rack should gather, striking the hours along the way.

Ralph

 

[soaringjoy]

Thanks for the corrections, Ralph.
I admit it's complicated stuff for me to comprehend, translate and write.
But it was the way I understood the old repair handbooks by Jendritzki, Loesner and E.James.
I've never worked on a GS myself.

 

[prideofmatchingham]

Ralph, Richard and SJ

I got my three weight Gustav Becker with wonderfully designed weights, pendulum and brass dial today only and my watchmaker says that it will strike only for one quarter, half hr and three quarters. Then on hour, it will strike four quarters followed by the number of hour. Does it make it a GS or a PS? It has two gong rods and two hammers.
POM

 

[Ralph]

POM,

Pictures of the movement would help in deciding, but from your description, it sounds like a Petite Sonnerie variant.

If I had to guess, I would say it is not running correctly.

Pictures of the front plate with all of it's mechanics will help determine the correct operation. It might be as your watchmaker says, but it would be unusual in my experience.

What period is the clock?

Ralph

 

[Ralph]

Thanks for the corrections, Ralph.
I admit it's complicated stuff for me to comprehend, translate and write.
But it was the way I understood the old repair handbooks by Jendritzki, Loesner and E.James.
I've never worked on a GS myself.

Thanks for reminding me about the Jendritzki book. It's an excellent book, covering some complex mechanisms as no others do. In my copy, "Repairing Antique Pendulum Clocks", I do not see him addressing the typical Viennese/German Grand Sonnerie mechanism.

I have a few Jendrizki books...the others are on watches, Are there others?

Ralph

 

[mlcampbell]

It doesn't repeat or it doesn't strike the hours at the quarters?

Excellent discussion, thanks to all. Ralph, it doesn't strike the hours at the quarters, only at the top of the hour. For whatever reason, that quarter rack doesn't shift far enough left to release the hour release.

 

[Ralph]

If the quarter rack is not hitting the hour rack detent tail, the tail is bent, the rack detent is replaced, or ?? You'll have to apply your mechanical wherewithal to the area of the movement and decide which direction to go to fix it.

Personally, the tail looks a little weird and may have been bent and maybe extended. Most of the ones I have seen have a gentle curve to them. Look at your's closely. It looks too long and formed funny. I would expect the tail to look like the section to the right of the pivot point... and where it looks like it angles downward, I would have expected it to just continue on the same curve and only be long enough to solidly engage with the quarter rack when it drops.. I'd be looking at that area .....

Look at this thread. There is an image of 3 train movement. you can see what it should look like.

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?92711-Grande-Sonnerie-Mystery&highlight=sonnerie

The tail should look similar to the tail on the warning lever. Looking at your image, the quarter rack at the area of interest looks like it might be bent.... very slightly.

Ralph

 

[mlcampbell]

If the quarter rack is not hitting the hour rack detent tail, the tail is bent, the rack detent is replaced, or ?? You'll have to apply your mechanical wherewithal to the area of the movement and decide which direction to go to fix it.


Ralph

I read this and thought "no way it's this easy"...then I popped the hour rack detent off, gently applied thumb pressure to bend it straight(er), and Bob's yer uncle. I am in your debt.

Now, as for the "insides are a piece of cake, but watch out for that stuff on the front"...is the front just an easy disassembly, or do you have to note certain orientations etc, for re-assembly (I don't mean the levers, I mean stuff around the central shaft, the quarter hour wheel and the star wheel.

I love this place. Truly, thanks to everyone. I'm soaking this up like a sponge.

 

[prideofmatchingham]

Ralph, here the pictures. Number is 504804. I request some more light on GS and PS. For example how will the clock strike at 445 in GS and in PS?


.

 

[Ralph]

Your clock looks like a typical Grande Sonnerie Gustav Becker movement. I believe the fine wire spring on the hour warning lever is on the wrong side of it's tail. I'm not aware of this movement having a provision for petite sonnerie. I might be mistaken.

As a GS, I would expect the clock to strike 3 quarters followed by 4 hours at 4:45. If there was a PS mode, which I doubt, it would strike just the 3 quarters at 4:45.



Ralph

 

[prideofmatchingham]

Thanks Ralph.
Would I be mistaken if I call GS as a kind of 'quarter repeater'? Is it what they call Blind Man's clock?

 

[Ralph]

I don't hear collectors in this part of the world call them quarter repeaters. Most GS clocks have a trip mechanism that can easily be utilized to operate and effect a quarter repeat striking. Some clocks will have a string or attachment to this trip to allow the owner to operate the strike.

I have seen and heard these clocks referred to as 'blind man's clock', most often by sellers, auction houses and in ads.

Among collector's here, the parlance is Grande Sonnerie, at least in my experience.

Ralph

 

[mlcampbell]

So, on a practical question, how do you adjust the clock so it trips at as nearly exactly the quarter hour as possible? Do you bend the little helper spring so it is a little less responsive, or bend the lever that the pin on the quarter wheel picks up so it lags a bit?

I have been trying to run this movement by hand, sans weights, so I'm thinking it will behave much differently when there is constant vertical weight applied.

I think the fall must have knocked most of the keeper pins loose, and they're minuscule. I have been using pieces of comparatively heavy gauge strings from my pedal steel guitar. Work just fine, just sharp as hell and make my fingertips look like pincushions.

 

[prideofmatchingham]

Ralph

'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.'

If the clock is going to strike the quarters and the hour on every quarter, half hour and three quarter, then for all practical purposes, it is imitating the striking pattern of quarter repeater, whether we call it that or not. GS however sounds more 'dignified and GRAND'.
hy do I get a 'feminine vibe' about PS? Something to do with 'Petite'?

 

[Ralph]

Ralph

'A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.'

If the clock is going to strike the quarters and the hour on every quarter, half hour and three quarter, then for all practical purposes, it is imitating the striking pattern of quarter repeater, whether we call it that or not. GS however sounds more 'dignified and GRAND'.
hy do I get a 'feminine vibe' about PS? Something to do with 'Petite'?

I disagree. Repeat infers by demand. I would except Morbier type clocks which are unique.

They have silent repeaters, also called dumb repeaters. They are timepieces, that will give the hours and quarters on demand.

Repeater watches repeat on demand. Some carriage clocks are quarter repeaters and do not strike the quarters in passing.

In my world, repeat is something the operator initiates. Striking in passing is a clock function.

To strike is just a clock, whether at the hour or the quarters. Grande Sonnerie and Petite Sonnerie will qualify the type of striking. Ability to strike on demand is called repeating.

IMHO, Ralph

 

[prideofmatchingham]

Ralph

The difference is so subtle and yet so profound!! Yes, repeat on demand is repeater, indeed!
Take a bow, Ralph! I stand corrected.
POM

 

[Ralph]

So, on a practical question, how do you adjust the clock so it trips at as nearly exactly the quarter hour as possible? Do you bend the little helper spring so it is a little less responsive, or bend the lever that the pin on the quarter wheel picks up so it lags a bit?

I have been trying to run this movement by hand, sans weights, so I'm thinking it will behave much differently when there is constant vertical weight applied.

I think the fall must have knocked most of the keeper pins loose, and they're minuscule. I have been using pieces of comparatively heavy gauge strings from my pedal steel guitar. Work just fine, just sharp as hell and make my fingertips look like pincushions.

I would not start bending things. Generally,you would retime the cannon pinion with the gear on the 1/4 snail. To refine it further, there is sometimes a moveable friction fit bushing in the minute hand.

Ralph

 

[mlcampbell]

I figured out how to get the clock to strike at the right point. I have sat and watched this clock move as I push the minute hand around so much that my girlfriend is convinced it's some sort of focal point to enter a trancelike meditative state.

It *looks* like, indeed, the between the plates stuff is fairly straightforward. It also is starting to look like *most* of the levers on the front are fairly forgiving: straightforward to remove and to replace once done. What I don't quite get is the alignment of the snail w/ the star wheel, if that's even important, and how one would turn the little snail to make finer adjustments if needed.

This is a fascinating little machine...for 1880ish, it's nothing short of miraculous.