An Unusual Waltham Riverside?

Bildeborg

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Having not curated my pocket watch collection in a while I decided to pull them out on Christmas day to take a peek.

One that had me puzzled when I bought it and still puzzles me now is a Waltham model 1892 Riverside from 1899. It is in an open face case but with the seconds bit at 3 o'clock. It has 17 jewels and is lever set. The seller told me it was a rare grade 45 non magnetic piece.

Serial number is 7013760 which I believe is from a batch that appears to be missing from the Waltham lists. I'm not able to post a picture at the moment but any info on this unusual watch would be very welcome.

Regards,

Jay.
 

Jerry Treiman

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First, I am assuming that your movement is marked "NON-MAGNETIC" and not Riverside. If so, yes, it is one of the relatively uncommon grade 45 movements, and it is from the first run. My research found there were 280 made for open-face casing and 300 for hunting cases. This is a special model in that it was made specifically as a non-magnetic watch. If your dial is enamel it may be what many consider a desirable factory conversion dial used to case a hunting movement in an open-face case.
 
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topspin

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With only the serial number to go on, there's at least 4 sources of information...


...from which I conclude that the records do not have a "single version of the truth".

If it were mine, then I would be content to say that if it's got Riverside stamped on it then it is a Riverside, otherwise grade 45 is as good a guess as any and we'd really love to see some pictures.
Grade 45 is not "rare" in the sense we use it here (580 pieces in total from 9 runs) but well deserving of "unusual".
 

Bildeborg

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Somewhat late I know but here are some pictures.

As can be seen, my regulator differs slightly from Jerry's above inasmuch as the 'star' is totally different. Also, mine states "17 Jewels" before the word "Adjusted". The placement of the seconds bit at 3 o'clock is a bit unusual I think.

7.jpg


2.jpg


3.jpg


Regards,

Jay.

Edit: I now realise I was incorrect to say it was a Riverside model.
 

topspin

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Re: The position of the seconds bit - this is a hunter movement (designed for use in a hunter case) wearing a conversion dial. A little unusual, but not at all rare.

Looking at the photo I don't see any extra screw marks, therefore this is likely to be an all-original combination and should definitely be kept together. Nice.
 

Bildeborg

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Topspin, I have read elsewhere & have been told that the dial is indeed quite a rarity. I certainly have never seen another as mine.

As a whole, with only 300 of the watches ever produced (in this format) and very few of those fitted with a factory conversion dial, I should imagine taken as a whole it is quite a rare piece.

Regards the movement & case, I cannot think why I would ever separate the two so no worries in that regard ;-)

Regards,

Jay.
 
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Bildeborg

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Here is why I initially thought it a Riverside model......

Grade: Riverside

Manufacturer:

Waltham


Manufacturer Location:

Waltham, Massachusetts


Movement Serial Number:

7013760


Grade:

Riverside


Model:

1892


Estimated Production Year:

1897


Run Quantity:

900


Total Production:

5,200


Size:

18s


Jewels:

17j


Movement Configuration:

Hunting


Movement Finish:

Nickel


Movement Setting:

Lever


Plate:

Full Plate


Regulator:

Patent


Hairspring:

Breguet


Adjusted:

Yes


Adjusted to Position:

Yes


Data Research:

1954 Waltham "Gray Book" List





Research Note: Waltham Serial Ledgers originally designated serials 7,009,001-7,701,700 as Grade K. However, the Waltham Gray Book serial list and various observations provide evidence that multiple runs exist within this original range, including Vanguard, Crescent Street, and Riverside (18s/M1892 and 16s/M1888).

.....so clearly an error on the serial numbers website, thankfully now corrected.

Regards,

Jay.
 

Rhett Lucke

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Somewhat late I know but here are some pictures.

As can be seen, my regulator differs slightly from Jerry's above inasmuch as the 'star' is totally different. Also, mine states "17 Jewels" before the word "Adjusted". The placement of the seconds bit at 3 o'clock is a bit unusual I think.

View attachment 718238

View attachment 718239

View attachment 718240

Regards,

Jay.

Edit: I now realise I was incorrect to say it was a Riverside model.
Here’s another example with the same regulator and similar conversion dial.

3D327A31-3EAA-474D-B7E6-6ECB7D5A762F.jpeg ED5F5C3D-E6C2-4EB8-A74C-A7228B337A3D.jpeg
 

Bildeborg

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Nice one Rhett. Interesting to note yours also has '17 Jewels' printed before the word 'adjusted'.
whereas Jerry's does not.

Regards,

Jay.
 

Jerry Treiman

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Nice one Rhett. Interesting to note yours also has '17 Jewels' printed before the word 'adjusted'.
whereas Jerry's does not.
Since the 300 movements that include my movement (post #4), Bildeborg's (post #6) and Rhett's (post #10) were finished over a four year period (and not necessarily in sequence) it is likely the few finish differences that we see are the result of changing production and finish specifications over that time period.
 

Jerry Treiman

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With only the serial number to go on, there's at least 4 sources of information...
[ . . . ] http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php?serial=7013760&sernumin=
...from which I conclude that the records do not have a "single version of the truth".
I was the person who transcribed that portion of the ledger for our database. The report is correct but the scanned ledger page ...
(and condensed version in the gray book) are lacking detail that was available on an additional un-numbered ledger page that was not reproduced for the on-line database
 

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Old rookie

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Thank you, Jerry for your ongoing contributions to the NAWCC! :clap: :clap::thumb:
 

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