An unusual presentation watch ?

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Travler1, Jun 3, 2019.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    96CD761D-7AF2-4A0E-A2D2-D33682F7672D.jpeg 3A228C62-0688-4855-9830-D22846B226BD.jpeg 84F9530A-E5CB-4FB0-8741-6B9B00F3A379.jpeg 0D87C382-D95D-47A5-897D-28701C19E039.jpeg FC2379AA-3A4A-4308-AFB7-713C50F5A9C7.jpeg

    I am a tad confused by this watch ....I believe the case dates to 1840-50 ? I believe the case was made for the watch ? From attempting to understand Roskell serial numbers ....I believe this movement via serial number is apx 1820-1825 ? I am not sure I have seen “Chronometer” included with the dial signature of an 1820-1825 English Chronometer .....to add to the above ....I have yet to find “St Louis RR Co.”

    Was this movement kept on the shelf till apx 1850 and then cased with a dial at the same time.? Is this a re case ? Is my dating of the moment askew ? Is there a St Louis RR Co.? Thank u advance for your thoughts
     
  2. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,377
    1,709
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #2 Keith R..., Jun 3, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 3, 2019
    I think most chronometer pocket watches had a dial indicating as such for the English.
    *Note, your dial is pre-1850 by the seconds bit not being recessed.

    The St. Louis RR Co would have ties to the KCS I'd say. They may have been involved with
    major yards and freight movement. Very nice example. You should PM Allan on this Roskell.
    KCS stands for Kansas City Southern.

    Your case I'm sure is a replaced one, after much wear. It was fitted to your movement by a
    jeweler. See replacement case just posted in the Josh Johnson thread.

    Very Nice.

    Keith R...

    100_3604 (800x600).jpg
     
  3. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,236
    1,029
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #3 gmorse, Jun 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
    Hi Travler1,

    The case date is certainly 1845/6 and I think the sponsor's/maker's mark is JB over WW, which is for Josiah Barnett ans William Waters at 15 Lower Charles Street, Northampton Square, Clerkenwell, registered on 27th June 1843. The movement has a balance wheel in Earnshaw style, with rather unusual rounded trapezoidal weights and apparently trammels to constrain the outward movement of the arms. From the large gaps in the rims and the trammels it looks quite early, and almost certainly older than the case as Keith has proposed. Serial numbers are often misleading, especially with chronometers, which did often spend a longer time in manufacture than other watches, but in this example they do seem to be consistent with the other clues.

    Another thing I notice is that the barrel arbor has a square on its upper end, which is usual in many Liverpool watches, where it carries the barrel ratchet, but in this watch the ratchet must be on the other end. It isn't obvious why that square was left there, unless the barrel arbor is a replacement.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  4. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Travler1, You have a very interesting watch there. I think at the moment Grahams observations are correct, but we need to see photographs between the plates. The number on the watch would put it between 1808 to 1812, and the Rt. Roskell is correct for that period. If you look at my Roskell file from number 5169 to 7898 you will find all are Rack levers, with only 5263 a chronometer, (A spring detent with sugar tongs) 5909 a duplex are the only exceptions.

    Thank you for posting this, best wishes,

    Allan.
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  5. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,236
    1,029
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Travler1,

    3A228C62-0688-4855-9830-D22846B226BD_edit.jpg

    Red: escape wheel
    Green: 4th wheel
    Blue: spring detent foot
    Black: balance spring stud of typical Earnshaw form

    Robert Roskell and Thomas Earnshaw are thought to have had some sort of business relationship, with Earnshaw doing the finishing for Roskell in the latter's early chronometer production.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  6. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
    Sponsor Gold Business Member

    Sep 3, 2000
    6,744
    121
    63
    Male
    watches
    Florida
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Travelr, can you post a better pic of the engraving. I cannot make out the first name The last seems to me Mackebey.

    thanks. Very interesting.
     
  7. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Travler1, Just to make life easy here is my latest upgrade of the Roskell file. Page numbers 6 & 7 are the ones of interest here.

    Allan.

    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

  8. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    Keith, Graham, Allan and Jeff.
    I appreciate the help with this watch. Somehow today I find myself with very little time to respond, please excuse ...

    I will attempt to photo between the plates as well as a better shot of the presentation ....and organize a few thoughts to reply with. Thanks again

    Best to all ...John
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  9. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    Hello all ....I managed to capture images of the RR chronometer .....between the plates and presentation inscription.

    I have a question however, can anyone explain why the RR Chronometer does not carry 2 serial numbers ....I 35088633-0258-4155-B4A4-727C263C1879.png
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  10. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    As per your request ....and thanks B37D72AC-79BB-47BE-81F4-5FE624F4D2F7.jpeg CB467FF3-D57E-40AA-BD27-725D6D9F6C7D.jpeg 866B2662-6451-4719-A0BC-4CA71CBCE0B7.jpeg D579F472-FD7E-47E1-8650-10C3161534D8.jpeg
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  11. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
    Sponsor Gold Business Member

    Sep 3, 2000
    6,744
    121
    63
    Male
    watches
    Florida
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #11 Jeff Hess, Jun 4, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 4, 2019
    fascisnting... cannot find much on him. Only that he was listed as a clerk, a printer and a timekeeper in St. Louis and that he was in ELKS club
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  12. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,236
    1,029
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Well, whoever he was, somebody thought very highly of him to present him with such a fine watch.
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  13. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John, Your Robert Roskell only has the one number, because it is a very early, the double numbers on Roskell watches came about c1843-45 when his son took over the running of the firm. You will notice this on the later pages of the Roskell file.
    the first number is the serial number, and the second was the amount items sold at that time. Hope this helps, Allan.
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  14. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    Thank you Allan, Graham and Jeff, Keith R and others

    Jeff I am very appreciative of your efforts to track down the inscribed owner. Would you please tell me your spelling of that persons name. My best guess is
    Alex. Mackabey ....however I have a hard time with the script. You mention in your search results, the job description of a clerk, a printer and a time keeper ....I might guess a timekeeper would appreciate such a fine timekeeper.

    It’s a very expensive gift for a clerk (as Graham has stated). possibly this beneficiary provided time service for the railroads in St Louis. Possibly his service prevented a serious accident ? (A hopeful guess) Anyway, that type of individual in that occupation would be over the moon with a pocket chronometer. Jeff if you could assist me with spelling of the inscription. I will contact some of the RR historical societies and museums ....hopefully I will have something further to share

    I question how and when this watch ended up in the states with a RR employee inscription and when it was presented, Also puzzling is the fact that I have yet to find an exact company registered as the St. Louis RR Co ......Keith, you mentioned KCS as a possible parent company to St Louis RR Co. do you have further thoughts or could you give me some of the backstory to your thinking?

    Graham you mentioned the balance wheel trammels, Are these for middle temp compensation ? or controlling expansion of the B/W ? Would you be able to expand on that comment in reference to Earnshaw .....or in the view of general B/W timeline changes during this period ? Are this sort of Trammels considered rare and unique ?

    Once again thanks to all for the help ....John
     
  15. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 22, 2015
    1,927
    697
    113
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    John - Jeff has had a lot more luck than I have!

    I checked a 1844 directory for St Louis and I could find no match for the employee nor the company. Of course we cannot be certain that the engraving was done in the same year as the hallmark

    I know there is an heritage railway 'St. Louis & Iron Mountain Road', which is listed here List of Missouri railroads - Wikipedia as being in operation between 1851 and 1874. I wondered whether it was ever locally referred to as the St Louis RR (railroad) Co - a quick search certainly reveals a lot of railroad activity in St Louis during the 1850's.

    John
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  16. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,494
    417
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Nice watch, but wouldn't the trammel prevent inward contraction of the balance arms as well, thereby defeating the temperature-compensating feature of the balance? Was the trammel there to counteract centrifugal forces?
     
  17. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,236
    1,029
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Clint,

    I was in the fortunate position earlier this evening to put this question to Jonathan Betts, and his opinion is that the trammel has a similar function to the affixes in Pennington 'L' and 'double 'T' balances, that is, to stabilise the arms during adjustment and also in this configuration to make it easier to keep the two weights in alignment. It isn't anything to do with middle temperature error or centrifugal forces, because the loops at each end of the trammel aren't tightly attached to the pins in the weights but are loose enough to let the arms react to temperature changes.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
  18. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,494
    417
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Thank you, Graham
     
  19. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,377
    1,709
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    My focus going forward will be chronometers (English) or an English cylinder or two.

    Nice find John.

    Keith R...
     
  20. JTD

    JTD Registered User

    Sep 27, 2005
    6,484
    313
    83
    To me it clearly says Alex. Mockabey, not Mackabey. If you compare the 'o' and the later 'a', you will see the difference. I don't find the script difficult at all, but then that is how I was taught to write!

    Alex. Mockabey (printer) appears in the St. Louis city directory for 1886.

    Hope this helps.

    JTD
     
  21. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    Thank you JTD for the spelling assistance, it appears that in 1880 Mr Mockabey (age 40) worked for a Street Car Company in St Louis . I’m thinking as Graham has statet, that he must have done something right, to be given a detent Chronometer upon what I suppose retirement. Unless chronometers were low hanging fruit in those days!!!!

    A further thought is, who knows what happened with Mr. Mockabey from age 40 to 60, or from 1880 to 1900 ( a WAG of his approximate retirement date)

    Graham I appreciate your endeavors to explaining the Trammels on the B/W. thank u very much for that and Keith R,...always kind words from you .

    Now ....if I can just locate that Nicole Nielson lever pocked inscribed from an English Steam Wagon Co. to an employee ....possibly we can do this again !

    E83B01FC-CEBB-44C0-AE91-6A21F062D2F6.png
     
    Keith R... and John Matthews like this.
  22. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 22, 2015
    1,927
    697
    113
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Travler1 - sorry if I have missed something, but given the age of the watch movement and also the hallmarks on the case, are you sure this is the correct Alex Mockabey?

    Is it possibly that his father or even his grandfather was Alex? It was very common for a Christian name to persist through the generations as can be seen from the record you have posted.

    John
     
  23. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,494
    417
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Uh-oh. Another competitor! :) I just bought the A. P. Walsh, Lot # 211, in the Jones & Horan sale last Sunday - my second PC. (You know you're truly a watch nerd if you see "PC" and you think "pocket chronometer.")
     
    Keith R... and John Matthews like this.
  24. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 27, 2012
    5,377
    1,709
    113
    Male
    Retired Sr. Proj. mgr,
    South
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Although I now have two, one is Swiss and the other an 1880's English lever fusee. I need an
    early English lever fusee, about 1820.;) The English has a Spring detent escapement, while
    the Swiss, a pivoted detent escapement.

    Then of course a wheel barrow load of English cylinders.

    Keith R...
     
  25. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    Hi John Matthews, I agree with you

    the time line appears interrupted between re casing the movement in England apx (1845) And the census record of 1880. (listing a 40 year old Mockabey `who would reasonably retire about year 1900) When considering those two thoughts, there is a very decent possibility, of an earlier Alex Mockabey

    Thank you John, you didn’t miss a thing ....I did !!!

    Regards
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  26. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 22, 2015
    1,927
    697
    113
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    John,

    I find these English movements that found their way to America, some of the most interesting watches and also the most demanding to research. The journey to reach a conclusion, if one can be reached, the most rewarding. Your example, because of the nature of the movement, the apparent recase in the UK and then the dedication in St Louis, makes it particularly interesting, I envy your ownership :).

    I did do a very quick search of some earlier trade directories and I was unable to find evidence of an earlier Mockabey. It would be interesting to find the birth record of your 'Alex' to establish his father and confirm that he was born in St Louis. Also, do you have a clear photograph of the inside of the engraved back? - although it may not provide any additional clues, the hallmarks are often better preserved and if there has been modification to an original case, it is a good place to carefully inspect.

    Enjoy your journey, yet to come.

    John
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  27. JTD

    JTD Registered User

    Sep 27, 2005
    6,484
    313
    83
    Alex was born in 1840 in Kentucky. Unfortunately I have not been able to find the record of his father's name. If I do, I will tell.

    JTD
     
  28. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    DB5B6079-81E2-4CD8-9CDE-D102463743FF.png
    Hello JTD , Thank you for the birth date and city of Alex .....I have been stymied on this and further info regarding the Father of Alex Mockabey.

    Thank you also John Matthews for the compliments on the watch ...I will soon post the pictures that you last requested, unfortunately I’m away for a few days.

    My only addition to this post would be a photo of a similar Roskell movement. The above pictured watch is an auction listing and comes with no hallmark detail...calling our 1815 in the listing as year of manufacture with a serial number 29/6080 The auction was on May 5 2015, Cortrie auctions Hamburg Germany

    The auctioned watch does have the same trammels as well as a protruding exposed square barrel arbor. Which I believe solves the question presented by Graham of a possible refit to the arbor of # 6078

    I am still totally confused on Roskell’s serial numbers as they pertain to chronometers ....the above auctioned chronometer’s serial number, being two movements away from my chronometer, and inscribed with two serial numbers compared to my one serial number?

    Allan thank you for all your help with Roskell Serial numbers ...wow is all I can say.to your incredible work. Please advise if you have further thoughts on Chronometer numbers included or not included with movement numbers. I see no rhyme or reason ....

    Thanks again to all for the interest and assistance with this watch. ....John
     
  29. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,236
    1,029
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Travler1,

    Double numbering was usually a chronometer number over the total number of all watches, but I wonder if this might be an example of two makers each applying their own number? I don't know if Earnshaw was in the habit of doing this, but it bears investigation, since he was possibly involved with your movement.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    Keith R... and MMSCampelo like this.
  30. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John, The watch above that you posted is really quite rare, and it is the first early pocket chronometer numbered in this way I have seen. My first impression was it had been taken in by Roskell and modernized. I then read what Graham had to say, and I think his idea could be right. In my file on Barraud chronometers, there is a very small section called by Cedric Jagger "The "Earnshaw" series. See photograph. Over the years one or two have been added. So I do now think Earnshaw put his number on this watch, and then Roskell added his. Though again both these watches would then have been numbered around 1808-10. Thomas Earnshaw died in 1828, Paul Philip Barraud 1820, and Robert Roskell 1847 though Roskell retired from business in 1843. Thank you again for posting the above, I will now have to make an Earnshaw Series??:cool:

    IMG_7328 (2).JPG
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  31. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Found the auction, but it is of little help.C1815 indicates to me the case is not hallmarked and could be coin silver??
    1-14.jpg Their photograph of the dial and case. Allan.
     
  32. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    Hello Allan,

    I have no information on hallmarks or the case material ....however I will attempt to contact the auction house for further info. My interest in this sold lot, is that it carries a serial number which indicates 2 movements past mine ....also that the chronometer prefix number is 29. while my watch has no prefix only a serial number

    .....could it be that something happened with the Roskell firm or Earnshaw firm, so that Roskell started a new series of chronometer numbering ? It seems the serial number 29 is out of sorts, and possibly not representative, of the amount of chronometers produced by the firm during 1790-1815

    Also sorry to be a bother .....but it appears that there is a gap in Roskell serial numbers after around 1815 ....as they show 1815 production to be around 10,000 and then to my viewing ....they skip to 20,000 with only a handful of watch’s listed in the betweens of 10K and 20K serial #’s

    I can only guess that something happened to cause a new series of serial number to be undertaken ?



    Thank you Allan ....
     
  33. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #33 Allan C. Purcell, Jun 10, 2019
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2019
    Hi John- While searching for more of this type of watch I came across No. 6078. It would appear they got their photographs mixed up, take a good look at photograph No. 4. Also notice the compensation weights, they are exactly like yours. The confusion for me is the hallmark, they say it is 1845. Still looking for more. Allan




    t 4137. Pocket watch: out of the ordinary, particularly heavy Pocket chronometer by Robert Roskell, Liverpool, No. 6078, the Hallmark 1845

    398166_1551870148-850x550_width_50.jpg
    1. 398165_1551870148-850x550_width_50.jpg
    2. 398166_1551870148-850x550_width_50.jpg
    3. 398167_1551870148-850x550_width_50.jpg
    4. 398168_1551870148-850x550_width_50.jpg
    5. 398169_1551870148-850x550_width_50.jpg
    View catalog
    Description
    Lot 4137Pocket watch: out of the ordinary, particularly heavy Pocket chronometer by Robert Roskell, Liverpool, No. 6078, the Hallmark 1845
    Approx. Ø62mm, approx. 216g, glossy silver case with Hallmarks of 1845, case-makers-hallmark IBWW, chronometer escapement with spring according to Earnshaw, two-piece bimetallic compensation balance, the short-ripe halves according to Earnshaw with two wedge-shaped at the corners and sliding brass-mass weights, and a large steel screw per Mature half, as in the case of Earnshaw steel pins with Eyelets for the stabilization of the Balance to weight the Mass, finely engraved balance cock, gebläutes steel Chaton with Diamond cap jewel for the Balance wheel, screwed gold Chaton for the escape wheel shaft, blued, cantilever signed at the end of a helical spring with terminal curve, mainplate and numbered, original, signed enamel dial, blued steel hands, very beautiful condition, fully functional, impressive Chronometer. The makers of Liverpool-born Robert Roskell (CA. 1805-1873) was one of the most famous English chronometer. He was both a marine chronometer, as well as ultra-fine Pocket chronometer. There is also a Roskell-signed Pocket chronometers of Earnshaws Sugar-Tong-type. -s-cznNkKMOLghOtgpChwtkyDEp8uwEvcOIq-ym2G1HRiybReK1LhEzk6eJcqXDj_1509030814-176x176_width_100.gif
     
  34. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    Hello Allan, thank u for your time with this

    ...the above auction you have listed is for the watch that I own, as I was the successful bidder. It is a recase of apx 1845.

    The sister watch that I posted a photo of ( in post #28 ) ....is a different watch and It is the PC that ii called out as being 2 serial numbers past my watch,....this sister watch was sold at the same auction house Cortrie ...with a sales date of May 5 2015. .....I looked on their site, however info is limited, so I will need to contact them to ask if they have archive photos of the case for watch # 29/6080 sold in 2015.

    I was about to ask before I read/received your last post....Did I misunderstand when you said the watch I posted was quite rare and is the first early Chronometer numbered this way ....I’m lost on which watch we are speaking of ? Were you referring to my watch #6078 or the sister sister watch # 29/6080 ? ,,,,in any regard is not 29 chronometers short of the number produced by Roskell in the 20+ years from 1790 to 1810 ? Or was that the point you were making? ...that there were not many Roskell PC’s produced during those early years and my posted watch #6079 was rare ?

    a third interpretation of your thoughts, that I came up with was that since my PC #6078 was not carrying 2 serial numbers, then that fact made it rare ?

    I guess u have to color me confused. ....thank you for your help with all this, I really appreciate your input ....John
     
  35. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hello John- It was me that got confused-not you. I got it into my head that your watch was 6080. Please don´t ask why anything can happen when you get to my age.
    So let me try and put things in their perspective.
    Your watch 6078 is the early one, whether it was made by Earnshaw for Roskell is still an open question. (Rare)
    No. 29/6080 is also early and could well have been made by Earnshaw for Roskell. (still rare)

    Sorry about that John, I will now try to find others, and remember your watch is 6078.

    To MartyR. I have posted post 33 and 34 twice could you please get rid of one.
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  36. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
    Sponsor Gold Business Member

    Sep 3, 2000
    6,744
    121
    63
    Male
    watches
    Florida
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  37. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    347988FD-DBDB-4388-95C5-A292EC4B0523.jpeg CAF17039-CC2B-4943-8441-FC355C7E5940.jpeg Hello All,

    A couple days past, John Matthews asked for the enclosed photos . John I hope this helps with your questions.

    Jeff Hess ..... I was looking for a different Mockabey, (possibly the father). previous to the Alex Mockabey listed in the 1880 census . Alternatively ....a census listing around the retirement age, of the 1880 census Mockabey already discovered ....The retirement would be apx. 1895 to 1900 ( in my best guess)

    Jeff I hear you are very good at this, however I did not comprehend your last post, if you would please explain what you were thinking ?

    Allan .....the more I look at Roskell serial numbers the more confused I get !! .....your undertaking is monumental ...you must have the patience of Jobe and excel at Chinese arithmetic.

    As a further note to this watch I contacted the auction house with the sold 2015 Roskell chronometer, 2 serial numbers past my movement (requesting case stamps of that listed watch) ...I quickly received a response stating that my contact was on holidays until July. not a dead end, but nothing to share as of yet.

    Regards to all ....John
     
  38. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 7, 2011
    10,236
    1,029
    113
    Male
    Retired from Xerox
    Breamore, Hampshire, UK
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John,

    Yes, definitely London 1845/6, and made by Barnett & Waters.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  39. John Matthews

    John Matthews Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Sep 22, 2015
    1,927
    697
    113
    Retired Systems Architect
    France
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    John - many thanks for posting the case and hallmarks.

    The maker's mark 'JB above WW' Graham has found much quicker than I did. The mark is for Josiah Barnet and William Waters - I was floundering initially because I failed to recognise the 'J'. They registered the mark on 27 June 1843 with an address of 15 Lower Charles Street, Northampton Square, Clerkenwell.

    John
     
    Keith R... likes this.
  40. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi John, I really do wish I could excel at Chinese arithmetic, when in fact I have a problem counting my toes. This hobby we all enjoy is not as straight forward as we would like. Talking about Roskell and his numbers, they are at least to me consecutive, what often fails when searching, are the full details. Finding the number is fine, but quite often, and more than I like the escapement is missing. A classic example being the two watches we are talking about now. For me, they came out of the blue.
    Now in the tread "The book-A peep through the window of time" Tom Mcintyre put the Roskell numbers from that thread through his excel program which put the numbers in a numerical list. (I manage to print it out Tom-Thank you) (post 8) we then have numbers, 6207, 6209, 6587, 7226, 7234, 7236, 7341,7379, 7435, 7436,7519, 7608, 7933. Not one of these watches was given an escapement. On Mr. Schernerhorn´s watch 1865 we do have "Patent P.L. which tells us a Rack Lever by Peter Litherland of Liverpool. Until your watches came along I would have thought all these watches were Rack levers, so again thank you for sharing John.
     
  41. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
    Gibbs Literary Award NAWCC Fellow NAWCC Member

    Jul 12, 2002
    1,494
    417
    83
    Male
    I am a research physicist at a government lab
    Pittsburgh, PA
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #41 Clint Geller, Jun 12, 2019
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
    I wonder if Mockabey is an Anglicization of Maccabee, as in Judah Maccabee. Jewish men are not infrequently named Alexander.
     
  42. Jeff Hess

    Jeff Hess Moderator
    Sponsor Gold Business Member

    Sep 3, 2000
    6,744
    121
    63
    Male
    watches
    Florida
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
  43. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Hi Jeff, I don´t want to sound negative about this chap Alexander Mockabey. I too looked for him in the hope we would find out more on the case, and when the watch was put in that case. Though the more I think about it, I feel he needed a good watch for his workplace and managed to find this chronometer movement going cheap, and had it cased, or did it himself. If you look at post 4. Roskell 5263 is also a pocket chronometer with sugar tongs, used in the main by Thomas Earnshaw, and now these two watches have turned up. my thoughts are Earnshaw was making pocket chronometers not only for Barraud and Roskell, but others, and at the moment I am searching for pre-1827 pocket chronometers by Earnshaw. (His son was also Thomas Earnshaw). Making a comparison of these chronometers my tell us more about the numbering used by Earnshaw. Allan
     
  44. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    While looking into the way Thomas Earnshaw numbered his chronometers and watches I came across an article by A.D, Stewart "A note on the serial numbers of Earnshaws watches and chronometers" on the net. Very interesting article but with no definite conclusion. If you read this short article you will notice it is based on the book Mercer "Chronometers of the world". What is missing are the words by Mercer where he says " The first number (Earnshaw) is that of the chronometer and the second the total of his complete manufacture. (The Roskells adopted the same system)" Though no dates are given for this adoption by the Roskells. I then looked at the entry for Roskell in Mercer's book, and he indicates the date c1825, I think that is too early for that adoption. (That does not alter the date on your watch.) Though I will keep looking. It could be I will have to track down chronometers by Earnshaw that he made for other makers like Barraud, Brockbank, White, and others, and see how his system stands up. Allan.
     
  45. Travler1

    Travler1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 26, 2012
    91
    23
    8
    florida
    Hi Allan,

    Thank you for the follow up info and for sharing further thoughts.

    Please excuse my delayed response as I have been making passage from Florida to Grenada with limited online access. .

    ....on the question of when Roskell started using 2 serial numbers ..I’m thinking 1824 is not to early. As from my memory, that is he case date of my second Roskell chronometer # 396/39488 I have posted photos of that watch in the chronometer thread dated sept 2017. Might I ask you to view that watch ?

    Apologies for not being able to post the link here and I hope the above is of some assistance ...John
     
  46. Allan C. Purcell

    Allan C. Purcell Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 9, 2013
    1,890
    424
    83
    Male
    retired
    Germany
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:

    Hi John,
    I think your question about the numbering of the chronometers as at last woken me up to take some action on that point. I have ignored this problem for some time, thinking others would carry it forward, and I relied on Tony Mercer's book, for dating. Another mistake was thinking that the double numbers were used later by Robert Roskell Jnr. So as things stand, I would say the numbering of chronometers in my file is a mess, to say the least. I have here a Hunt & Roskell boxed chronometer number 13013 and a pocket watch by Hunt & Roskell numbered 13405. So no double numbers. Both of these I believe to be in the 1840s. (13405 is now a wrist watch) So I intend to start from the beginning on the chronometers and see what I can come up with. Could take a while, but I will keep you informed.(your 396/39488 is on my lists-in updates)
    Best, Allan.
     

Share This Page