An unsigned high-class minute repeater

[northerner]

I would like to pick the collective brain of the forum hoping to identify this minute repeater. It's a 52mm 14k timepiece with what I believe to be a "JN"-stamped case.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

I think your repeater likely has a LeCoultre movement or is based on a LeCoultre ebauche. Sometimes LeCoultre signed movements under one of the hammers. Take a look if you haven't already done that.

 

[northerner]

Thank you! The movement isn’t signed under the hammer. It is most likely a LeCoultre ebauche but I would like to identify the manufacturer of the finished movement, if possible. Hopefully, someone here has seen/worked upon a movement with a similar layout.

 

[northerner]

Adding a few better shots of the movement.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

A serial number may get a short list, provided we have a year range. A clear pic of the hallmark (if it's a swiss case, show the little letter inside) & the initials would also help us. I'm afraid Adalbert G. Berg will not help us--he was already the City Watchmaker in 1877 & was still active in 1907. Would others more knowledgeable help confirm if this was 1890s?

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

northerner, your movement is an open-face movement. A German auction house is attributing fairly similar looking hunter movement to Audemars Piguet. Audemars Piguet did supply movements to other firms. e.g., Touchon. It might have been the source or at least the finisher of your movement. See Taschenuhren - Cortrie Spezial-Auktionen für Uhren und Schmuck in Hamburg.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Wow, good eye, Ethan! Look close in that caseback, and you’ll see what appears to be a JN stamp. Whatever their lineage (AP or no), it is shared.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

mosesgodfrey, I am not sure I have a good eye. I can't find the JN on the watch up for auction.

I completely forgot that northerner had posted cased photos of his watch when I said that I thought his movement was an open-face movement. I was right about that, but it was obvious from his photo of the cased watch. (I have corrected my negligent postings).

But perhaps I do have a good eye. Look at the hands and dials of the two watches. The hands seem to match and, while the dials don't match, they are similar looking -- similar fonts and similar sliver of the "6" below the sub-seconds dial.

Also look at another hunter repeater attributed to Audemars Piguet that is nearly identical to one to which I posted a link. It, too, is being offered in the same German auction. Pocketwatches - Cortrie Special-Auctions for Watches and Jewellery in Hamburg

 

[mosesgodfrey]

I can't find the JN on the watch…

Both 3rd & 4th image show it, just above “0,750”. Have yet to look at that second one. I’m still skeptical of their attribution & dating (although it is a breathtaking piece).

Hoping to see case markings on the subject watch. There is a key thing I’m looking for to date it.

 

[musicguy]

in addition to what has been said northerner your photographs are fantastic.


Rob

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Let’s suppose the initials in the case are the case maker, as I’ve often seen. The “N” last initial is clear; the first looks like a “J” but I can’t be sure. So I took a look at Davoinesin the age range that makes sense to me: 1886-1908. All gold case makers/firms with last initial “N” (or second name N).

One name seems to emerge…and it would be “JN”…


1908
Nardin, Jean fils, Reçues 22. (Locle)

1901
Nardin, Jean fils, Reçues 22. (Locle)

1896-1897
Nardin, Jean fils, Reçues 22. (Locle)

1891
Nydegger et Cie, Collège 10 (CDF) - Samuel Nydegger was signatory
Nardin, Jean, fils, Reçues 112 (Locle)

1889
Nardin, Jean, fils, Reçues 112 (Locle)

1886*
Nardin, Jean, fils, Reçues 112 (Locle)

*Brassus gold case maker page missing, but no “N” there in other years.

I propose the region within the Locle bureau is the likely place where the end client/firm was.

 

[northerner]

Let me start off by saying thanks to everyone who's participating in the discussion. Unsigned watches of better quality is like a good mystery novel

The serial number of the movement matches that of the case. But there is also a three-digit number on the movement, 189.

So far I have found two almost identical pieces, albeit in hunter cases. Also unsigned:

Hi Grade MINUTE REPEATER Gold Repeating Pocket Watch. Complicated Watches. Fine Antique Watches at GoodOldWacth.

www.goodoldwatch.com

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/pocket-watch-very-fine-gold-hunting-case-watch-wi-4154-c-9e248a5a0d?objectID=166530064&algIndex=archive_lotNumber_asc_prod&queryID=00989750062374869491bc37015fe4e2

And one signed "A. Piguet" with a movement having a close resemblance to mine:

A pocket watch with minute repeater no. 37955 - Wrist and Pocket Watches 2016/06/03 - Realized price: EUR 2,500 - Dorotheum

gold 585, stripe-pattern lever movement, two hammers on chime springs, wolf-tooth wind-up wheels, smooth savonette casing, diameter: ca. 52 mm, lateral striking mechanism adjust, enamel dial, Arabic numerals, small second, ca. 1900, 91,5 g

www.dorotheum.com

Besides having almost identical layouts and finish, what these movements have in common is the form of the center bridge.

It is a "JN" marked case. I am attaching some photos of the case and hallmarks.

 

[Incroyable]

Riga, Latvia is quite intriguing.

 

[northerner]

Riga, Latvia is quite intriguing.

It is, isn’t it? Never seen one before.

I mixed up the links in the post above. Here’s the watch signed Audemars Piguet” that I meant:

https://www.invaluable.com/auction-lot/pocket-watch-very-fine-gold-hunting-case-watch-wi-4154-c-9e248a5a0d

 

[Incroyable]

Slightly tangential but early pre-WWII Audemars Piguets are quite interesting at least to me.

It's also interesting that this has a 14k case. I was under the impression that 14k cases were mostly made for the American market.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Incroyable, I think a lot of 14k watches were made for the German and Russian markets as well. For example, this modest 14k Patek Philippe surely was made for the European market.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Locle assay confirmed (and I must echo musicguy — excellent photos!). So JN will be the case maker: Jean Nardin fils (Jean Nardin, Jr). He was in business in Locle before 1883 (succeeding his father of the same name, in the same business), and his firm was renamed as “Ed. et Ch. Nardin” in December 1910. Jean Jr. himself had died in Jan 1901, but his sons Edouard-Auguste Nardin et Charles-Philippe Nardin carried on the business.



With the zolotnik stamp & JN’s closure date, we have a firm range of 1881-1910 at broadest. There are other things to narrow that, and suggest a few names.

However, the AP dial one linked seems out of place: that AP sn should be from 1909, not fitting with 1875 hallmarks. Can’t read hallmarks on it to be sure. Anyone with keener eyes able read them?

 

[northerner]

Locle assay confirmed (and I must echo musicguy — excellent photos!). So JN will be the case maker: Jean Nardin fils (Jean Nardin, Jr). He was in business in Locle before 1883 (succeeding his father of the same name, in the same business), and his firm was renamed as “Ed. et Ch. Nardin” in December 1910. Jean Jr. himself had died in Jan 1901, but his sons Edouard-Auguste Nardin et Charles-Philippe Nardin carried on the business.

View attachment 749548

With the zolotnik stamp & JN’s closure date, we have a firm range of 1881-1910 at broadest. There are other things to narrow that, and suggest a few names.

However, the AP dial one linked seems out of place: that AP sn should be from 1909, not fitting with 1875 hallmarks. Can’t read hallmarks on it to be sure. Anyone with keener eyes able read them?

Thank you mosesgodfrey! I sure learned a lot. For one, I had no idea the squirrel hallmark had a secret letter as well.

What could be the story behind the movement? Could the serial 39519 fit the 1881-1910 time frame if the movement were an AP?

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Short story: movement made under contract by someone (imo AP or finer). The 39519 (again, imo) is the client/finisher serial number, the 189 likely the maker’s sn.

An extract request from AP may be possible, if it’s theirs. 189 could fit in 1880s, but not 39k in our date range, to best of my knowledge. I’m still theorizing in the 1890-1905 range.

TBD story: most here would take AP name and run, which I can understand. But I believe there is another master at work here, (heresy to follow) making equal to or better than AP at this time. I would like to push to give them credit, if possible. Hoping to hear from the cadrature experts, that would go a long way to lock in dates & enable sn attribution.

 

[northerner]

Short story: movement made under contract by someone (imo AP or finer). The 39519 (again, imo) is the client/finisher serial number, the 189 likely the maker’s sn.

An extract request from AP may be possible, if it’s theirs. 189 could fit in 1880s, but not 39k in our date range, to best of my knowledge. I’m still theorizing in the 1890-1905 range.

TBD story: most here would take AP name and run, which I can understand. But I believe there is another master at work here, (heresy to follow) making equal to or better than AP at this time. I would like to push to give them credit, if possible. Hoping to hear from the cadrature experts, that would go a long way to lock in dates & enable sn attribution.

AP as the maker is the obvious first guess due to the design of the bridges and cocks. But then we run into the issue of never finding the exact same movement signed by AP. Or at least attributed to AP with good evidence. To me this poses a problem. On the other hand, if we entertain the idea of another maker of equal or exceeding skill that predominantly produced pieces under contract, it explains why I found at least three watches with almost identical movements, dials and hands and all three anonymous. It makes perfect sense for such a maker to offer a complete watch with movement dial and hands but without any signatures.

 

[dshumans]

AP used the LeCoultre 18SMV frequently and this may likely be that movement also. The 18SMV sold as an ebauch is frequently signed on the back of the mainspring cover plate, like this Stauffer minute repeater.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

There were those to whom even AP regularly turned for white-labelled movements. This will be from one of them.

And one signed "A. Piguet" with a movement having a close resemblance to mine

I did not see a signature on this?

So far...in this series, we already see info to push this watch earlier than 1910. Using JN, whose dates we've fixed, presumably some years would have been needed to produce 10,000 units by the end client, from yours to the last one seen so far stamped by JN.

This series:
No. 37995 - no case back pic; same balance cock markings as yours
No. 38542 - JN case stamp; same balance cock markings; Reed regulator
No. 38576 - no case stamp; same balance cock markings
No. 39519 - yours; JN case stamp
No. 49135 - JN stamped case (see 0:47-0:55 of video for sn & stamp); same balance cock markings

Others:
No. 12649 - dial signed AP; different balance cock markings

 

[dshumans]

Here is an AP signed watch with the 18SMV movement (with a different choice of center bridge for the LeCoultre ebauch) and a Golay watch with the AP style of bridges and 18SMV movement.

 

[Incroyable]

Audemars also used Valjoux 13 Ligne chronograph movements for their precision chronometers and some wristwatches.

They extensively modified them to be time only taking advantage of the powerful mainsprings.

 

[mosesgodfrey]

northerner said earlier, decoding this piece is like a good mystery novel. And like a good mystery novel, the plot took an unexpected twist. At least for me, my answer (not to say “the” answer) is a surprising one.

Look closely at the cadrature, and you’ll see many features that are different from its Lecoultre 42 or SMV ebauche cousins. Here is a post from Philip Poniz highlighting several cousins. Just to choose an example: here is the subject watch’s setting lever, followed by those of (in order): unknown Bigelow Kennard, Vacheron Constantin, retailed by Touchon, Cartier (via Edmond Jaeger), Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet.









So far, no one has been able to identify the cadrature. I will share my findings, with hopes of confirmation or rebuttal.

For my answer, I looked for those houses in the timeframe who offered a specialty of complicated watches--specifically, repeaters and greater--in the Locle District (Locle, Brenets, Ponts, Brevine); these would be most likely to use a Locle casemaker, which we've established is true. Then I narrowed it down to who was using this serial number range 37k-49k in our timeframe.

Finally, I turned to the movement itself: I eliminated those who are known to have used only in-house designs that were not like this, and I looked for those who marked their movements (i.e. balance cocks) in this way at the turn of the century. That generated one house--the house to which I believe these serial numbers belong, who I believe finished & retailed these exquisite watches.


It also generated a possible intermediary, who has not been mentioned yet on the forum.

Both are mentioned in the 1896 Swiss National Exhibition in Geneva, and I will let that summary introduce them.

COMPLICATED WATCHES
Class II includes houses dealing more specifically with complicated pieces, and who have the specialties in these genres...

• Mr. Charles-Emile Tissot, of Le Locle, member of the Jury at the 1889 Paris Exhibitions and Chicago 1893, had a wonderful display. Precision movements were accompanied by 1st class bulletins from the Neuchâtel Observatory; the complicated watches had cases of very appropriate and graceful shapes, and the names of numerous awards that appeared in the showcase testified to the perfection that has always been the prerogative of this house.

In the same class we find a group of eight manufacturers who also deal in complicated pieces, but more especially in repeaters...

• Mr. Wolfensberger, in Le Locle, [Gold Medal, Geneva, 1896] is distinguished by very meticulous [“soignèe”] manufacturing: pocket chronometers, chronographs, repeaters both simple and complicated. Their showcase contained in particular a chronograph whose drive is made by the escapement wheel and which seems to present some guarantees for the avoidance of errors, the deviations not exceeding 1/10th of a second due to the construction in itself. Mr. Wolfensberger also has a special way to avoid chiming errors, in the large gongs, at the moment of passing the hour/time.

This possible intermediary is Mathäus (aka Mathias or Matthias) Wolfensberger. Originally from Lempfriedsweiler, Wurtemberg, he brought his family to Locle in 1893 and set up a factory that produced the finest complications. He was 49 years old.

Tissot certainly had the means to produce/finish the grandest complications in-house—and did many. But I now have proof that they and Girard-Perregaux sourced at least some complicated movements from Wolfensberger in the late 1890s that present similarly to what we see in the subject watch.

Wolfensbeger’s in-house numbering & production was low—almost all below 1,000 before 1910. Here is the only signed movement I could locate for him—a lovely Chronograph numbered 890, mentioned in multiple interviews with its distinguished owner as the finest in his vast collection and “better quality than Patek Philippe.” (Aside: It would be an honor to speak with him, to learn more about the cadrature!). But there are a few contract pieces known, with other sn ranges.

In 1900, Wolfensberger presented a Chronographe-Compteur—with no signature on the bridges—right below our first sn example above.

Net, I think the watch is from Tissot at the 1900-1903 range. I would love to also be able to fully tie the subject watch to Wolfensberger. That would make it a rare breed indeed!

 

[northerner]

northerner said earlier, decoding this piece is like a good mystery novel. And like a good mystery novel, the plot took an unexpected twist. At least for me, my answer (not to say “the” answer) is a surprising one.

Look closely at the cadrature, and you’ll see many features that are different from its Lecoultre 42 or SMV ebauche cousins. Here is a post from Philip Poniz highlighting several cousins. Just to choose an example: here is the subject watch’s setting lever, followed by those of (in order): unknown Bigelow Kennard, Vacheron Constantin, retailed by Touchon, Cartier (via Edmond Jaeger), Patek Philippe, Audemars Piguet.

View attachment 750208
View attachment 750209
View attachment 750213
View attachment 750210
View attachment 750211
View attachment 750212
View attachment 750225

So far, no one has been able to identify the cadrature. I will share my findings, with hopes of confirmation or rebuttal.

For my answer, I looked for those houses in the timeframe who offered a specialty of complicated watches--specifically, repeaters and greater--in the Locle District (Locle, Brenets, Ponts, Brevine); these would be most likely to use a Locle casemaker, which we've established is true. Then I narrowed it down to who was using this serial number range 37k-49k in our timeframe.

Finally, I turned to the movement itself: I eliminated those who are known to have used only in-house designs that were not like this, and I looked for those who marked their movements (i.e. balance cocks) in this way at the turn of the century. That generated one house--the house to which I believe these serial numbers belong, who I believe finished & retailed these exquisite watches.
View attachment 750286
View attachment 750287
It also generated a possible intermediary, who has not been mentioned yet on the forum.

Both are mentioned in the 1896 Swiss National Exhibition in Geneva, and I will let that summary introduce them.



This possible intermediary is Mathäus (aka Mathias or Matthias) Wolfensberger. Originally from Lempfriedsweiler, Wurtemberg, he brought his family to Locle in 1893 and set up a factory that produced the finest complications. He was 49 years old.

Tissot certainly had the means to produce/finish the grandest complications in-house—and did many. But I now have proof that they and Girard-Perregaux sourced at least some complicated movements from Wolfensberger in the late 1890s that present similarly to what we see in the subject watch.

Wolfensbeger’s in-house numbering & production was low—almost all below 1,000 before 1910. Here is the only signed movement I could locate for him—a lovely Chronograph numbered 890, mentioned in multiple interviews with its distinguished owner as the finest in his vast collection and “better quality than Patek Philippe.” (Aside: It would be an honor to speak with him, to learn more about the cadrature!). But there are a few contract pieces known, with other sn ranges.

In 1900, Wolfensberger presented a Chronographe-Compteur—with no signature on the bridges—right below our first sn example above.

Net, I think the watch is from Tissot at the 1900-1903 range. I would love to also be able to fully tie the subject watch to Wolfensberger. That would make it a rare breed indeed!
View attachment 750284
View attachment 750285

I know this will sound like a cliché but I am both humbled and excited by being a part of the online watch community! Collecting watches "alone" would not be the same otherwise. Outstanding detective work, mosesgodfrey! I assume we just need to wait for others to respond to the Tissot/Wolfensberger theory that otherwise sounds much more plausible than the AP one.

Also, if anyone feels like there might be knowledgeable people on other forums/in other countries, please feel free to repost my photos with the same question.

In the meantime, since I've received so many compliments for my photos, I will share a joke and a photo of my other, much less mysterious, minute repeater: Black Starr & Frost with a Touchon extra-thin movement.

The joke:
What do people say if the photo you took with your big black camera didn't turn out well?
- "Sorry man, but you aren't good at this"
What do they say if the photo turned out great?
- "Oh wow! What camera and lens did you use for that one?"

Black Starr & Frost (the hands need adjusting, I know, but then who cares about reading the time when you can hear it?)

 

[mosesgodfrey]

A beautiful and interesting piece in its own right.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

northener, lovely Touchon! It's a type MR6A in my classification system in the database linked to below. I hadn't seen this watch before. I'd like to add it to my Touchon database but, despite your otherwise excellent photography, I cannot quite make out the serial number of the movement. Is it 65,345? I'll add the watch to my Touchon database when I know its serial number.

 

[northerner]

northener, lovely Touchon! It's a type MR6A in my classification system in the database linked to below. I hadn't seen this watch before. I'd like to add it to my Touchon database but, despite your otherwise excellent photography, I cannot quite make out the serial number of the movement. Is it 65,345? I'll add the watch to my Touchon database when I know its serial number.

Please do! The serial is indeed 65,345

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Thanks, northerner. I've added your watch to the Touchon database.

 

[RexinMinn]

Adding a few better shots of the movement.

View attachment 749234 View attachment 749235 View attachment 749236 View attachment 749237 View attachment 749238

Incredible images of an exceptional watch. And really an amazing thread here. Has a specific date (not range of dates) been established? Thanks for sharing with us such an amazing piece and educational adventure!

 

[northerner]

Thanks, northerner. I've added your watch to the Touchon database.

My pleasure! Could you please direct me to somewhere where I can read about the MR6A movement and where it was sourced?

 

[eri231]

In all this investigation, it seems to me that we have lost sight of Ethan's post that he correctly recognized an ebauches of LeCoultre. In fact, the mainspring bridge has two characteristics of LeCoultre, the top curve and the clickspring. Which by the way was of the cheapest kind. Wanting to find out who assembled is how to ask for the name and surname of all the workers who worked for this assembler.
Regards enrico

 

[northerner]

In all this investigation, it seems to me that we have lost sight of Ethan's post that he correctly recognized an ebauches of LeCoultre. In fact, the mainspring bridge has two characteristics of LeCoultre, the top curve and the clickspring. Which by the way was of the cheapest kind. Wanting to find out who assembled is how to ask for the name and surname of all the workers who worked for this assembler.
Regards enrico

I am sorry, Enrico, but minute repeaters on LeCoultre ebauches are so numerous and vary so greatly in design and quality of the finish that it's basically like a canvas for a painting. It's what the artist does with the canvas that creates a masterpiece. Your humorous remarks about the names and surnames of the workers sound a bit out of place. Unless, of course, you can with certainty attribute the cadrature to a certain house.

 

[eri231]

Actually, minute repeaters aren't as popular as quarter repeaters. If the movement is known as LeCoultre's ebauches, so is the cadrature. A part of the cadrature is also on the opposite side, next to the barrel of the repeater, which is difficult to modify. And the presence of a click-spring that LeCoultre considered cheap is a sign that this ebauches was not the most refined.
Many assemblers worked for the dealers and finished them according to customer requests such as mirror polishing of the levers or the anglage of each component.
Here you can see a more refined LeCoultre caliber with three hammers:

LeCoultre 18K Pink Gold Minute Repeater - Bogoff Antique Pocket Watch # 8002

www.bogoff.com

Regards enrico

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Enrico, do I correctly understand you as saying that the bar-type click in northerner's "unknown" repeater and in his Touchon repeater were considered by LeCoultre to be of lower quality than the exposed claw-like click on the exposed winding wheels of the the three-hammer example to which you included a link? If so, could you explain why LeCoultre thought so. It is my understanding that LeCoultre invented or at least patented the bar click. I see it on many high-grade Swiss movements. It looks more elegant than the exposed claw-like click. Was the claw-like click more expensive to make than the bar click? Was it superior?

 

[eri231]

The click-spring was an evolution for movements with exposed barrel wheels. Whereas previously on covered barrel wheel movements, and not just repeaters, LeCoultre used three types of clicksprings. In the first photo ( Click spring) the spring is inside the barrel bridge, and required more work to do it.
In the second photo (Click spring 1) the click is external and fixed with a screw, apparently simpler but expensive as a production due to the difficulty of making the spring between the two parts. In the third photo (Click spring 2) the cheapest one in terms of production because it was a single piece click and spring fixed with a screw.
The spring is seen in the circle.
Regards enrico

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Fascinating, Enrico. So there were three versions of LeCoultre bar click that varied in how much they cost to make, but did they vary in how well they performed? Were the more costly versions just used on higher grade movements?

Based on a quick review of some of the many watches I have with bar clicks, it seems that

• LeCoultre wasn't the only firm that used bar clicks, even if it originated them.
• For example
  • Louis-Elisée Piguet seemed to use bar clicks that looked like LeCoultre bar clicks.
  • IWC used bar clicks in some calibers, such as 77, but they look somewhat different than the LeCoultre bar clicks.
• LeCoultre bar clicks of any given type varied somewhat in appearance over time or between calibers.
• LeCoultre used all three types simultaneously after they were developed. In other words, Type 2 did not replace Type 1 and Type 3 did not replace its predecessors.

Enrico, please let me know if my observations are correct and if my type identifications below are accurate. I suspect I've messed up by unwittingly including some non-Lecoultre products.

Type 1 -- Most Expensive Click to Make

18k C.H. Meylan


18k Bulova Phantom -- This movement was also made using the Type 2 click. See the example under the Type 2 heading.


18k C.H. Meylan


18k Haas Neveux


18k C.H. Meylan


Type 2 -- Somewhat Less Expensive Version

18k J.J. Badollet


18k Bulova Phantom


Type 3 -- Lowest Cost Version

Unsigned Movement in Plat. Verger-Cased Watch


Unsigned Movement in 18k Ladies Watch

 

[eri231]

Probably I'm wrong but Bulova1 and 3 and anon 3 have the main spring bridge with two arches which was used by Meylan.
Regards enrico

 

[northerner]

Actually, minute repeaters aren't as popular as quarter repeaters. If the movement is known as LeCoultre's ebauches, so is the cadrature. A part of the cadrature is also on the opposite side, next to the barrel of the repeater, which is difficult to modify. And the presence of a click-spring that LeCoultre considered cheap is a sign that this ebauches was not the most refined.
Many assemblers worked for the dealers and finished them according to customer requests such as mirror polishing of the levers or the anglage of each component.
Here you can see a more refined LeCoultre caliber with three hammers:

LeCoultre 18K Pink Gold Minute Repeater - Bogoff Antique Pocket Watch # 8002

www.bogoff.com

Regards enrico

You seem to be very quick with drawing conclusions and passing judgements. First, what makes you think LeCoultre considered this type of click to be cheap? You consider it cheap, I get that.

Second, of course quarter repeaters were more popular. They were cheaper. What does that have to do with our discussion?

Third, why would LeCoultre make a different cadrature for the same ebauche? And if it’s so common, can’t you post a photo of another watch with the same one as in mine?

Fourth, the clicks you are showing in the first example and the click of my watch are exactly the same! The same screw in your example is there on the other side. Look at the location of the winding stem and you will see what I mean - the bridges are mirrored. And no, you don’t see the end of the spring in the circle, it’s the polished bevel of the bridge. Look at the better photo in the other post.

And lastly, what makes you think the movement in the watch you linked to is more refined? No mirror polished cap for the anchor wheel, no wolf tooth on the barrel and crown wheels. And where is the third hammer? I see only two.

 

[eri231]

I beg your pardon. To your incontrovertible arguments, I have no answers. I am afraid that I will have to study for a long time before I can answer.
Regards enrico

 

[northerner]

I beg your pardon. To your incontrovertible arguments, I have no answers. I am afraid that I will have to study for a long time before I can answer.
Regards enrico

It sounds like I might have offended you with my questions. For which I am sorry.

To make a long story short, do you mean that the movement in my watch came finished from LeCoultre?

 

[eri231]

Finished repeaters by LeCoultre are very rare and usually signed under a hammer and often LBC (LeCoultre Borgeaud Cie). LeCoultre was a factory of ebauches (it built over 1200 different calibers) which it sold to other watchmakers, also based on designs supplied by the customer, such as Agassiz,
and to complete a repeater, highly specialized figures were needed such as the "cadraturier" who, once assembled, the movement rarely worked, so the cadraturier refine each single piece. Sometimes a few hundredths of a millimeter stopped the movement. In the link I posted, the hammer is located under the brake regulator, and the brake itself was a patent of Ditisheim Paul so the only sure thing is that the ebauches are by LeCoultre but who assembled it, modified and adjusted it remains unknown.
Regards enrico

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Enrico—I have great respect for your research, having learned much from you in my brief time here, but I fear this conclusion on Lecoultre click springs is oversimplifying and possibly leading astray.

Fwiw, I find there is more to the Lecoultre click spring story, and usage seems to have as much to do with dates and intellectual property/ownability as with cost. Some of these you’ve shown were indeed patented by Lecoultre—and then almost immediately they had to recant their patents. While Lecoultre is the name that stands tallest to history, real time was much more dynamic (they had French suppliers who were happy to be silent until their IP was taken). Struggles to grow through horizontal & vertical integration are a factor here.

 

[eri231]

Given that it was not my intention to write an Opera Omnia on click-springs, but to show the most common ones on movements with covered wheels. Of those shown only one was a LeCoultre patent, the others commonly used by other watchmakers as well. I have no news of patents presented and then withdrawn, do you have any examples? There were also two LeCoultre patents that I have never seen applied, one very similar to the one used by AP, and perhaps for this reason never used?
Regards enrico

 

[mosesgodfrey]

Yes, not my intention either, but the herring already crossed the track. Btw, this is a great topic, and while it may seem I am being disagreeable in this case (bc I disagree with the conclusion on "cheap" vs. not), this is something I would like to see brought forward in its own thread or article.

Since we're far afield, here is one Lecoultre example for which I have a ready image & dates. I will hold others pending a bigger conversation (and time to go back for pics), but if you look at those from the 1890s, you'll see a similar story: many are cancelled within a year.

CH25659 – Lecoultre click patent - filed Apr 4 1901; granted Apr 15 1903; published Apr 28 1903 (FOSC vol 21 no 170); radiation announced Aug 13 1903 (FOSC vol 21 no 317).

 

[northerner]

In the link I posted, the hammer is located under the brake regulator, and the brake itself was a patent of Ditisheim Paul so the only sure thing is that the ebauches are by LeCoultre but who assembled it, modified and adjusted it remains unknown.
Regards enrico

Maybe you see more than I see there but I thinks it’s a two-hammer movement on a three-hammer ebauche. Shouldn’t a three-hammer movement also have three gongs?

Here is another such example, but without the Ditisheim Paul governor.

And the same ebauche with three hammers and three gongs:

 

[eri231]

Not necessarily, there are also repeaters three hammers two gongs, it is the mass of the hammer that differentiates the sound.
Regards enrico