American verge fusee watch?

[remo87]

I had a verge fusee watch signed John Carrell Philidelphia (the city name is wrong).
I'm just wondering, is it possible that this watch was made in America?

 

[musicguy]

Moving thread to European section for best identification.

Rob

 

[musicguy]

Looks very nice!


Rob

 

[Dr. Jon]

This watch was almost certainly made in England. The only known and documented effort to manufacture verge watches was by Luther Goddard in Worcester Mass enabled by an embargo on British goods around the time of the War of 1812.

Watchmakers usually had their own names engraved on them. Silver/gold smiths imported movements which they cased but kept the English maker's names.

English watch making required numerous supporting specialist trades when this watch was made so no one person made any of these. The signer pulled it all together and "examined" the finished item. If the retail customer was an American Silversmith or Goldsmith the examiner signed it so the American silversmith could trade on that "Maker's" reputation.

This suggests your watch was imported by an American watch/clock maker.

Watchmakers despite the name rarely made complete watches.

 

[John Matthews]

Jon

The ‘signer’ - do you mean the person represented by the signature?

If so, your statement is not true in many instances. Often watches were delivered already signed (before gilding) and the retailer only had to perform a minimal inspection. I do not know (obviously) how this movement was received in America. It is possible that this movement was received already signed, uncased and without a dial and hands.

John

 

[Dr. Jon]

No we do not know for certain. My comment differentiating smiths from watchmakers is speculation based on the examples I have seen. In most examples the watches with well known English maker's names on them are in cases marked by makers I can find in lists of American gold and silversmiths.

The US before and shortly after the Revolution was very diverse in the ways of importing watch and clocks in whole and in parts.

I stand by the assertion that the OP's watch was not made in significant way in the US.

 

[musicguy]

I stand by the assertion that the OP's watch was not made in significant way in the US.

I do not think that was John's point of contention.


Rob

 

[Rick Hufnagel]

Ancestry shows a John and Daniel carrell working in Philadelphia at least 1785-95

John was born about 1758, died may 6, 1830.

Watch/clockmaker, goldsmith and jewelers.

Here he is in 1791

Makers: 1791 Philadelphia Directory

I dont know if you can see this but try the link to one of the craftsperson cards.

U.S., Craftperson Files, 1600-1995

U.S., Craftperson Files, 1600-1995

www.ancestry.com

 

[John Pavlik]

I believe this watch was “manufactured” in England in the most traditional English way, and then sent off to the US… Engraving was a simple exercise of removing the barrel bridge, and engraving the local Jewelers name … The case appears to be American made as I do not see English hallmarks .. and I would venture to add the movement appears to recased into this case .. Ck hinge and latch area ..

 

[Incroyable]

I believe this watch was “manufactured” in England in the most traditional English way, and then sent off to the US… Engraving was a simple exercise of removing the barrel bridge, and engraving the local Jewelers name … The case appears to be American made as I do not see English hallmarks .. and I would venture to add the movement appears to recased into this case .. Ck hinge and latch area ..

Wouldn't the plate need to be re-gilded after the engraving?

 

[watchbob]

I agree likely English made - many watchmakers in this time would have been able to engrave & regilt the plate to match the movement

 

[John Matthews]

I agree likely English made - many watchmakers in this time would have been able to engrave & regilt the plate to match the movement

Agreed also possible - need to check the gilding properties to decide.

John

 

[Les harland]

There is a Philadelphia in the UK near Sunderland
It was named after the US city was captured by the British during the American war of independence
It did not exist when this watch as made

 

[John Matthews]

As Rick has demonstrated the signature is that of a resident of Philadelphia in the USA.

1791

1800

1810

1825

The movement was undoubtedly made in England and probably in Coventry between 1790 and 1810. We cannot say in what state it was when it was exported. I suspect it was exported as a bare movement and possibly with the name already engraved. Of the latter we cannot be certain, but close examination of the signature and gilding may provide clues. The dial and hands are not in the style being fitted in Coventry at the time the movement was made. Therefore it is possible that these were fitted in America, either originally or as replacements. I haven't researched the case maker, but the style is that of English pair cases at the beginning of the C19th. Only the box is shown, is the outer case present and are there any marks? Given the lack of hallmarks, the box does not appear to have been assayed in England. I would infer it was either made in England and exported without being assayed (illegal) or it was made in America in the English style. The VA stamp is probably American and research should yield results. It may or not be the original case,

John

 

[Rich Newman]

This is only the second or perhaps third watch signed by Carrell that I've seen and likely the lowest serial number. Another had SN 300 that sold at auction in 2011 and other sold in 2006 that could have been the same watch. I would have to do some work to verify. There are exceedingly few watches from this period that were signed by American retailers. Based upon surviving repair records, it seems only around 1% to 2%.

We're slowly learning more about early watchmaking in America. Luther Goddard is already mentioned but its only recently that there seems to be speculation that Daniel & Percy continued manufacturing after the move to Worcester, Mass. There are also quite a few others who were manufacturing in America although in much small quantities. John Cairns, Thomas Harland, Wheelock & Morse just to name a few.

 

[John Matthews]

Just for the record this watch was sold on ebay in the USA in May 2022. At that time the outer case was present. The case was stamped 18094 the '9' not clear, possibly 3 or 5. So the numbers on the movement, box, case and pendant are all different, I draw no conclusion from this. No hallmarks visible in the photograph. The outer appears to be a good fit to the box.

For those who wish to trace the retailer/repaier there are 4 advertisements for John & Daniel Carrell (1784 & 1785) and 6 advertisements for John Carrell (1786 - 1797) in Carter Harris's AHS publication. The original entries focus more on silver, gold wares and watches (indicated to be imported via shipings from Bristol & Liverpool). The entry for 31 December, 1794 includes, 'Who is about to decline the Watch and Clock business and will dispose his stock, either wholesale or retail on reasonable terms ..... The last entry includes reference to tradesmens' tools just imported by the Hamburgh Packet from Liverpool. This decline in the watch repair and retail business being reflected in trade directories previously posted.

If the original poster has a photograph of the inside of the dust cap, I would be grateful to see a photograph.

John

 

[jboger]

Aside from the watch and the misspelled city name, the most interesting thing to me is that there is a Philadelphia near Sunderland in the UK named after the American city. Go figure.

 

[Rich Newman]

Aside from the watch and the misspelled city name, the most interesting thing to me is that there is a Philadelphia near Sunderland in the UK named after the American city. Go figure.

Actually not technically a misspelling in my view, just a different spelling. There are records of this alternative spelling in period documents and just shows that spelling standards in the English speaking world was still developing - - although much more consistent toward the end of the century than say the middle of the century. New places on the map often had different spellings, even in official governing documents. One wonderful example is on a surviving watch signed by the renowned clock maker Joseph Ellicott and hallmarked for 1765-66. It is engraved "Pencilvania" which again was an acceptable alternative spelling at that time. We will never know if "Philidelphia" was engraved as directed or an engraver's mistake. However, if this were my watch, I would definitely be looking for colonial/federal-era documents with this variation and have a bit of fun with it.

 

[Les harland]

Going slightly off topic there are still place names with multiple spellings around
There is a village near me, St Ipolyts, nobody knows the correct spelling
St Ippollitts, St Ipolyts, St Ippolyts or what, exactly?North Hertfordshire Museum

 

[jboger]

Les:

Digression is the art of conversation. Anyway, it's an unimaginative man who can't think of more than one way to spell a word.

John