• We are aware of the performance issues with the forum. These are due to problems with Comcast's lines in the Columbia, PA area. We are working on the immediate issue with Comcast and are also working on a long term plan that will eliminate our reliance on Comcast. Thank you for your patience.

American Pocket Watches for Export

Nick23

Registered User
Jul 21, 2009
481
430
63
England
Country
A diploma from the Dennison Watch Case Company awarded to Mr. William Mcbeth, one of the original members of staff, in recognition of 54 years diligent and faithful service from the foundation of the Company. 1875 - 1929.

I hope he also received a decent pension, and an 18K gold watch.


DSCF0073.JPG
 

Nick23

Registered User
Jul 21, 2009
481
430
63
England
Country
A 14 size Waltham 1884 Model AmWCo Grade with 13 jewels that dates to 1887, in a demi-hunter Sterling silver case by Dennison fully hall marked for 1887.

The rear cover is engraved with a crest of a wild boar passant shot through with an arrow. In heraldry the boar passant is the symbol of courage and the arrow is the symbol of martial readiness. This is the crest of the Scottish Clan Pollock whose motto is 'Audactor et Strenue' (Boldly and Strongly).

DSCF0078 (2).JPG DSCF0084 (2).JPG DSCF0085 (2).JPG DSCF0082 (2).JPG
 

Nick23

Registered User
Jul 21, 2009
481
430
63
England
Country
It has already been noted that Fattorini & Sons of Bradford was one of the largest retailers of Waltham watches in the UK. At the same time they sold thousands of English watches. Such as this pair cased English, Fattorini signed movement:-

DSCF0168.JPG DSCF0169.JPG DSCF0171 (2).JPG DSCF0172 (2).JPG

This was sold in the same year as this Fattorini signed Waltham 1857 Model.

DSCF0173 (2).JPG DSCF0174 (2).JPG

Both watches date to 1876.

DSCF0175 (2).JPG
 

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
6,930
3,486
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
I just had occasion to revisit this thread and realized it does not include what I consider to be one of the more significant examples of Walthams made for export.

Robert R. Fogel of New York had an arrangement with Waltham to have movements specially marked for his export trade to South and Central America. These are among the very few private labels that were separately listed in the Waltham serial number list. Fogel trademarked several grade names to be applied to these movements, including Cronometro Victoria, Cronometro Supremo, Cronometro Superior and Sol. These often were cased in his own private label cases, as well. I do not have any originally cased examples, but here are a few movements.
88CroVic.jpg 99CroVic.jpg Sol_m.jpg Sol_d.jpg
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
6,735
1,055
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
This one checks a few boxes.

It was likely exported

It is also a "Lovely Lady"

It is fairly rare watch being an 1881 from a run of 900 and having a bright damacened finish

I believe it was an exported movement, I bought it from a seller in the UK. It is in a Swiss hallmarked case. It has other hallmarks I think are English import marks on it.

Dial.png
caseback.png
mvt-sm.jpg
Here are the marks
outer cover.jpg
Closter look at case back marks punches.jpg


with Helvetica on the Pendant

pendant.png
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
12,949
2,401
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Dr. Jon,
Closer look at case back marks
I don't think these are UK marks; see David Boettcher's website on the subject of import marks. The two lower marks seem to be identical, as far as it's possible to tell given their rubbed state.

Regards,

Graham
 

Dr. Jon

Moderator
NAWCC Member
Dec 14, 2001
6,735
1,055
113
New Hampshire
Country
Region
I know the upper mark is Swiss. On a closer look I think the other twp marks are also Swiss Helvetica. I suspect they were mis stamped and they stamped the third to get a good impression.
 

topspin

Registered User
Dec 14, 2014
1,604
386
83
Country
Region
Fogel trademarked several grade names to be applied to these movements, including Cronometro Victoria, Cronometro Supremo, Cronometro Superior and Sol. These often were cased in his own private label cases, as well. I do not have any originally cased examples, but here are a few movements.
Photos - an 18s SOL grade, in what I hope is its original swing-out case.
In its favour is the sun symbol on the case, matching the one on the dial.
Counting against it is the unnecessary slot for a lever-set.

DSCN9178.JPG DSCN9177.JPG
 

stevep

Registered User
Sep 29, 2007
7
2
3
my cronometro victoria is a little worn out from the round trip. acquired it from a guy in Brazil. is there still a market for these watches? anyone know where I could get an original dial? cronometro victoria.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Oct 25, 2018
2,741
4,192
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
Any reason to bring this thread to the top, is a good reason.

First of all, I hope one of you fine folks nabbed that beautiful model 57 export the other day. Missed the end of the auction and not happy about it!

Anyways, this is recently imported back from export. It was in the U.K. and I'm very excited to add it with my 17s Elgin's.

This is 418460 which a grade 15, 11 jewels with gold balance wheel. It is unsigned. Has an awesome double sink dial, pretty straw colored hands and the movement looks great.

A sterling Dennison case, from 1876. Plain, except for a shield on the front. Normal wear and tear, but no major scratches or damage.

20210211_162907.jpg 20210211_163237.jpg 20210211_163304_HDR.jpg 20210211_163424.jpg 20210211_163048.jpg
6 down, one to go. (excluding some variations I like) I might have to make friends from the U.K. to help find the last one! :)
 

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
6,930
3,486
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
Thanks, Rick, for resurrecting this thread.

I have shared this one elsewhere, but it deserves mention here as a double export. Elgin sent this 12-size keywind movement to England in 1875 where it was cased by Alfred Wigley (London hallmark). Elgin’s London office must have then sent it to the antipodes where it found its way to Kadina, a modest mining town of 20,000 on the Yorke Peninsula, about 144 km north-northwest of Adelaide, Australia. The movement, a 7-jewel grade 30, is signed for Simeon Bennett who had his jewelry shop on the town’s main street.

365410_fb.jpg 365410_d.jpg 365410_m.jpg
 

gmorse

NAWCC Member
Jan 7, 2011
12,949
2,401
113
Breamore, Hampshire, UK
Country
Region
Hi Jerry,

Elgin sent this 12-size keywind movement to England in 1875 where it was cased by Alfred Wigley (London hallmark)
Alfred Wigley's mark was used by Dennison from 1874, and Wigley also registered his mark in London in 1875.

Regards,

Graham
 

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
6,930
3,486
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
Alfred Wigley's mark was used by Dennison from 1874, and Wigley also registered his mark in London in 1875.
I actually have two cased 12-size KW Elgins bearing Wigley's sponsor mark - one with Birmingham marks (presumably by Dennison) and the other with London marks, both with 1875 date letters.
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Oct 25, 2018
2,741
4,192
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
Here are a couple I haven't listed in this thread, and a movement. To bring this back up... Just in case someone has something new to add! :)

American Watch Co model 73-10
Sterling, Chester, Frederick Sealand, 1876 case and movement date.
20210815_223753-COLLAGE.jpg


A.W.W.Co model 1884
Birmingham, 1895, sterling, Alfred Bedford
This date mark is a tricky bugger, thankfully it was sorted out here. Thanks again for the help!

20210815_223844-COLLAGE.jpg

Elgin 16s model 5, grade 104.
Birmingham, AW (Dennison) 1893, sterling.

20210815_223911-COLLAGE.jpg

This last one is just a late Waltham model 76 movement from around the turn of the century. Cool dial signed for C&R Winter of Orchard St. In Preston.
20210815_214216~3.jpg 20210815_214307~2.jpg
 

Ethan Lipsig

NAWCC Gold Member
Jan 8, 2006
2,629
2,616
113
72
Pasadena
Country
Region
I have two Walthams that were exported to the U.K.

One is a circa 1897 Model 1894 American Watch Co. grade 12-size bridge model, recased in an 18k A.W.C.Co. case.

12 (1).JPG 12 (3).JPG 12 (2).JPG

The other is a circa1902 Model 1899 American Watch Co. grade 16-size bridge model in its original circa 1920-21 18k Dennison case.

16 (4).JPG 16 (3).JPG 16 (2).JPG 16 (1).JPG
 

topspin

Registered User
Dec 14, 2014
1,604
386
83
Country
Region
Just showing a recently-arrived model 1899 Cronometro Victoria. Running excellent.
I checked a few old threads... we've had several of these shown, with a variety of dials.
It's turned up in a somewhat incorrect Illinois case (no inner dust cover, superfluous lever slot at the front, a couple of strange gouges at the back, & the movement doesn't even appear to be seated level) but it's great apart from that. From the first run of Cron Vic model 1899 (second overall.)


DSCN9468.JPG DSCN9470.JPG
 

Nick23

Registered User
Jul 21, 2009
481
430
63
England
Country
I think it is common knowledge that the bulk of the American watch movements that were shipped to the UK were from the lower grades or were models made for the UK market. One of the redeeming features of this practice was that some models and grades were made in smallish quantities, and quite difficult to find.
One example is the 1876 Model Airedale Grade. A total of just 350 movements were produced in three runs. One run of 250 with 7 jewels and steel balance, one run of 50 with7 jewels and expansion balance, and one run of 50 with 11 jewels(2pairs) and expansion balance.
I have had one of the 7j with steel balance for a number of years, and recently managed to find one of the fifty with the 7j with the expansion balance.

The one with 7 jewels and steel balance is housed in a basic ALD marked Dennison Nickel case and a plain dial, whereas the rarer one with the expansion balance was given the Royal treatment and placed in a Alfred Bedford hall marked Dennison silver case with gold hinges and a double sunk cream enamel dial with mention of Her Majesty Queen Victoria and HRH The Prince of Wales! Well it was just one of fifty don't you know, and don't forget the expansion balance. Wow!

DSCF0180 (2).JPG DSCF0183 (3).JPG DSCF0191 (2).JPG DSCF0186 (3).JPG
 

Jerry Treiman

NAWCC Member
Golden Circle
Aug 25, 2000
6,930
3,486
113
Los Angeles, CA
Country
Region
Waltham and Elgin are both fairly well known for their aggressive export of movements to other countries. As shown in the previous posts, these include standard models with special grades or finishes and also some special models that seemed to be primarily for the foreign markets. In post #2 and the thread referenced therein Dave has mentioned some export models from the Illinois Watch Co. But did any other companies produce special movements for export?

Clint showed a E. Howard & Co. watch that was evidently exported, but other than the "USA" notation it would appear to be a standard model. However, the E. Howard Watch Co. (Keystone) made a gilt 7-jewel movement that would appear to have been for export only, probably to England (based on the "Climax" label, a name also used by H.Samuel). It is distinguished from their domestic products in having brass plates and only 7 jewels.
Climax_dm.jpg
 

Rick Hufnagel

Just Rick!
NAWCC Member
Sponsor
Oct 25, 2018
2,741
4,192
113
37
Pittsburgh pa
Country
Region
Jerry,

Seth Thomas is one.

I've seen two Waterbury watches in English cases. I can't find the first one in my notes, but one sold recently. At close examination it looked like it could be legitimate. date mark from 1891.

I've seen a New York Standard, as well.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
169,927
Messages
1,483,110
Members
49,243
Latest member
Ralphallais
Encyclopedia Pages
1,060
Total wiki contributions
2,965
Last update
-