Am I Missing Something? How Do I Replace It? Where Can I Get Instructions?

Sax6M

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20200217_134502.jpg 20200217_134736.jpg 20200217_134703.jpg 20200217_134635.jpg 20200217_134538.jpg 20200217_134635.jpg 20200217_134526.jpg 1581968427586908122168272223382.jpg 1581968427586908122168272223382.jpg 20200217_134736.jpg 20200217_134703.jpg 20200217_134635.jpg 20200217_134538.jpg 20200217_134635.jpg 20200217_134526.jpg

I hope these pictures will help you help me.

I have always been fascinated by mechanical time pieces. I have never been in a place to be a $eriou$ collector, but when I see something affordable, functional and distinctive, I get it. This is my second purchase, and although it is not a hidden mint, it is aesthetically pleasing, and met the above-stated criteria. I got it for my Bride of 38 years at a thrift shop.

I have attached pictures of everything that came with the purchase. The first question is do I have everything needed to hang the pendulum. My other question is where can I get a manual.

The markings on the housing are:
1. Herschede label on the right rear of the pedestal
2. 6235 on the left near the pedestal.
3. 22 on the right near the capital
4. 450 on the right near the pedestal

The markings on the movement are:
1. S. Haller Germany on the left leg
2. PU 77 on the arch
3. no (0) jewels unadjusted on the right leg

My first purchase was a hanging chime clock that has worked in every way except winding itself or reminding me to wind it from time to time. It is unbranded, and only indicates its manufacture in South (I assume) Korea.

20200217_134736.jpg 20200217_134703.jpg 20200217_134635.jpg 20200217_134538.jpg 20200217_134635.jpg 20200217_134526.jpg 20200217_134736.jpg 20200217_134703.jpg 20200217_134635.jpg 20200217_134538.jpg 20200217_134635.jpg 20200217_134526.jpg
 
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leeinv66

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Welcome to the message board. I have no experience with this clock, but it appears to be a battery/mechanical clock to me. It may need to be moved to our electric horology forum, but I will leave it here for the time being to see if you get some replies first. I'll be interested to learn more about it also.
 
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Jim Hartog

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Hello,

It may be electromagnetic in which the pendulum is impulsed by magnetic circuitry and then the pendulum drives the gears versus the escapement impulses the pendulum. Check out Kundo electromagnetic clocks on Youtube.

Jim
 
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Sax6M

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Welcome to the message board. I have no experience with this clock, but it appears to be a battery/mechanical clock to me. It may need to be moved to our electric horology forum, but I will leave it here for the time being to see if you get some replies first. I'll be interested to learn more about it also.
Hello, and thank you for the welcome. I spent an entire day looking for information on this piece. I have seen the movement in many pictures. What is frustrating is that no matter how I form the search criteria, I get information on Haller anniversary clocks. I have searched for information on Herschede. All I can get from this search is information on their grandfather clocks.

The most definitive information on the movement came from this and a similar page which I cannot find now.
Benchmark Mantel Clock S Haller Germany PU 77 Pendulum Movement | #405795451
 

Sax6M

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I found this thread that seems to have some good information and a diagram in it. CLICK HERE
This is the post that came up during my search, and led me to register. The diagram you mention, as one of the original respondents noted, looks nothing like my construction.

Thank you for responding, though.
 

THTanner

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If you look at the brass plate that the clock is mounted on you will see a round spot between and in front of the posts holding the movement and the dial. That is the impulse magnet for the pendulum. The pendulum should hang directly above that and just barely clear the plate. It will be behind the dial and in front of the base of the movement. If you position it that way you should see the point where the pendulum has to be attached. Your photo of the movement is not clear enough for me to see - but if you would position the pendulum as described and take a close up perhaps we can see if a part is missing, or perhaps you can see the attachment point??
 
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tracerjack

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Some electromagnetics do not self start. I don’t personally know of any that do, but am not familiar with the Haller to say one way or the other with yours. My Kundo doesn’t. I have to manually start the pendulum to get it going. So, once you have the pendulum attached, you may have to nudge it to get it going.
 

leeinv66

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More threads on these type of clocks. Seems they also made a PU81 that worked pretty much the same. May be no use, but it gives you another avenue to search: Click Here and Click Here
 

Sax6M

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15820729780675053415635839329988.jpg
If you look at the brass plate that the clock is mounted on you will see a round spot between and in front of the posts holding the movement and the dial. That is the impulse magnet for the pendulum. The pendulum should hang directly above that and just barely clear the plate. It will be behind the dial and in front of the base of the movement. If you position it that way you should see the point where the pendulum has to be attached. Your photo of the movement is not clear enough for me to see - but if you would position the pendulum as described and take a close up perhaps we can see if a part is missing, or perhaps you can see the attachment point??
I had figured out when I first looked it over how the electromagnet worked with the pendulum to power the clock. I thought it was quite neat. The issue yet in contention is how to hang the pendulum.

As requested, here are closeup pictures of the pivot point and the parts that came with it. I have managed to fit the gold piece with the ribbon spring as pictured. Is this correct?Where do I go from here? 15820731027717472887463309020691.jpg 1582074217574497990809016094787.jpg 1582074579196538276507830765282.jpg
 

THTanner

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The piece that is still in the post is part of the spring assembly - the piece you have in the pendulum has broken off from the piece in the post. The spring that is 90 degrees in the brass block should come out the top instead (I think). See if it can be turned parallel to the brass block. I think what you want looks something like this -but this is not the correct item. You need to position the pendulum at the right height and measure carefully how long it is from the top post pin hole to where the pendulum's hook will rest on the bottom block's pin. then go through the springs at the pages in Timesavers to see if you can find one that fits. You are not likely to find a brass one. You need to measure pin to pin length, width of the blocks but also thickness of the blocks so that it fits snug in the post and the pendulum, otherwise you will get some wiggle. There are many possible parts on Timesavers that are similar, so take good measurements and see how close you can get. The bottom block you show in the pendulum is not positioned correctly - it needs to be parallel to the pendulum rod. You also have to mind the length of the gap between the top post and the top of the pendulum hook. That will be the length of the spring itself.

#33 Suspension Spring
 
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Sax6M

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I was able to loosen the set screw on the pendulum rod, and turn the bottom block so that it is parallel to the bob (See? I told you I am learning!). When you said parallel to the rod, inasmuch as it is a single rod, it would be like turning an unmarked sphere so that it sits at a 90 degree angle. I was wondering why it would be perpendicular to the bob's travel plane, and had already experimented with turning it that way. However, it did not occur to me that the ribbon spring was broken. Since that is the case, everything falls into place. I can see it now. What now looks like an "F" rotated 90 degrees to the right should in fact resemble a ladder on its side.

Should I look for the block with a piece of ribbon that is twice as long, i.e., an "L", the whole ladder or only the ribbon?

Thank you so much!
 

tracerjack

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Is the brass piece in the hook the same piece as in photo #3? If they are two separate pieces, it looks like they were a suspension spring, but I’ve never seen one so wide.
 
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THTanner

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Should I look for the block with a piece of ribbon that is twice as long, i.e., an "L", the whole ladder or only the ribbon?
It is not an L shaped piece - it will look very much like the #33 part from Timesavers. I suspect somehow what is left of the spring in the bottom block has been turned sideways, The spring is usually just sandwiched tightly inside the brass blocks. If you take two pliers you can probably work the spring part back in alignment with the shape of the block. What is left of the spring could very well be the total amount of spring material exposed between the two blocks. So see if you can straighten it out and see if it seems to match to the bit of spring that should be visible in the top block. If so you will know how long it was pin to pin - which is critical. One other thing to consider when replacing this suspension spring is the thickness of the spring material itself. That will determine how wide the pendulum swings as the magnet gives the impulses. The weaker the spring the wider the swing. You want a reasonable amplitude, but not so much that it hits the sides. On these clocks the pendulum beat has nothing to do with how fast the clock runs. You will find that the 'regulating' knob in the pendulum does not change the length of the pendulum.

Perhaps these folks can help you with the part?? Or at least give a reference for the specifications.

Haller clocks shop • vast selection best price guarantee
 

THTanner

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Can you post a picture of the piece you removed from the top post? There is another spring shape that has been used in the PU 77. It looks more like this and may be
what is in your clock.

I think the long horse shoe clip is probably a shipping restraint to protect the pendulum and spring?

#54 Kundo Suspension Spring

These pictures are posted with permission of Timesavers - and might work - especially the second one.

#54 Kundo (Variety 2) Suspension Spring

M53336282.jpg F44669512.jpg
 
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tracerjack

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That’s what I was thinking it should look like, but had never seen one wider than long. Good sleuthing THTanner.
 
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THTanner

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I found a fuzzy picture of a PU77 at auction and could see most of the spring shape. I have no idea if the Kundo springs will fit, but they might be worth a try.
I suppose the Haller I worked on had a replacement spring installed and was like the single leaf I described earlier. So far I have found no source for actual Haller springs
 
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Sax6M

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THTanner, thank you so much! You have no idea what it means to get this kind of assistance. My Bride fell in love with the thing as soon as she saw it. Needless to say, this increased the pressure to get it working. You may have just gotten me a bizillion man points!
 
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Sax6M

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I found a fuzzy picture of a PU77 at auction and could see most of the spring shape. I have no idea if the Kundo springs will fit, but they might be worth a try.
I suppose the Haller I worked on had a replacement spring installed and was like the single leaf I described earlier. So far I have found no source for actual Haller springs
This is what surprised me in this quest, that neither Haller nor Herschede had any information on it. Let me guess, these are not first-tier clockmakers. Correct me if I am wrong. It is such a beautiful piece as a Herschede AND as a barebones, that it is hard to imagine it not being a standout. The pulse-magnet engine is another feature that I would think would give it some value at least to the afficianado community.

Would you or someone else care to give me some more info on these makers and/or this model in particular. I have gathered that Siegfried Haller was a physicist turned clockmaker. How much did this contribute to his craftmanship? Because I know some of you will do it, PLEASE DO NOT do the research for me. That is my job. I am talking about just what you know from your general knowledge or experience.
 
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THTanner

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1) I am not sure either of the Kundo springs will work as you receive them - they may not fit the post slot or the pendulum. If they are too think you might be able to file them down to where they will go in. If they are too thin they will wiggle - which can be cured with a shim or even a bit of tape. If the Kundo springs are too long and the pendulum hits the platform you might be able to shorten one of the blocks and relocate the pin. If the Kundo spring is too short and the pendulum is too far from the impulse platform you might be able to move the pin down a bit. 2) if neither of these seems to do the trick - you will probably have to go with a spring similar to the one I first noted since the Haller springs for your clock don't seem to be available anywhere. To use the smaller, single leaf, spring you will have to do some measuring and experimenting to get the right length and stiffness.

As for the reputation of Haller - I have no idea. Herschede clocks were often top of the line and won many awards. I have no idea about a Haller in a Herschede case though.
 

THTanner

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If you order the #54 Kundo spring please let us know how it worked out for future reference for others.
 

Sax6M

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If you order the #54 Kundo spring please let us know how it worked out for future reference for others.
The #54 spring works. The fit was an issue. The original spring bracket is about half as thick. However, I was able to spread the slot on the mounting post enough to slide it in. The screw hole lined up perfectly with the holes on the mounting post and bracket.

Thanks for all your help!

A Work of Beauty in Motion

My Bride loves it!!!
 
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Burkhard Rasch

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Glad You got it running.For the next time : be verry carefull "speading" a slot in a brass post like this,it can and will break easily,and then You have a real problem.
I don´t know the history of Haller but I can tell You that they weren´t famous for the quality of their movements:They allways tried to be as competitive as possible by saving material e.g. brass with relative thin plates and wheels.They also introduced the use of plastic in anchors and wheels which can cause problems today because that plastic will deteriorate over years.OTOH they had some ingenious ideas e.g. suspending a balance noncontact by a magnetic field or the use of a tensator spring to drive a clock.On my side of the pond Haller clocks are estimated "lower middle class"
Best regards
Burkhard
 
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Sax6M

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Glad You got it running.For the next time : be verry carefull "speading" a slot in a brass post like this,it can and will break easily,and then You have a real problem.
I don´t know the history of Haller but I can tell You that they weren´t famous for the quality of their movements:They allways tried to be as competitive as possible by saving material e.g. brass with relative thin plates and wheels.They also introduced the use of plastic in anchors and wheels which can cause problems today because that plastic will deteriorate over years.OTOH they had some ingenious ideas e.g. suspending a balance noncontact by a magnetic field or the use of a tensator spring to drive a clock.On my side of the pond Haller clocks are estimated "lower middle class"
Best regards
Burkhard

Thanks, Burkhard.
 

Kevin W.

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Glad to see you have your clock going.
 

nikcap

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Hi All, this thread was fantastic in helping me identifying this clock and the broken spring. I also ordered #54 Kundo spring, however, it simple wont fit into the slot, as the new springis slightly thicker. I don't know if this is by design, of if the piece isn't exact. I feel that I could get the piece inserted by spread the slot as Sax6M did, but I am worried about snapping the round brass mounting post, or breaking the thin springs when trying to insert the spring assembly. What advise do you have for getting the piece in?
Should I not be afraid to force it or tap it in with a small hammer?
Thanks, sorry my clock repair talents seem to go no further then replacing batteries. ;)
 

tracerjack

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Had to look up a Kundo 54 spring. One had a pin and one didn’t. I’d be inclined to sand down the spring cap, rather than risk spreading the post.
 
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nikcap

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Had to look up a Kundo 54 spring. One had a pin and one didn’t. I’d be inclined to sand down the spring cap, rather than risk spreading the post.
Thanks!
I used a Dremal to make the rivets flush and that did the trick.
The clock works perfectly now.
 
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