Adjusting Herschede Grandfather Clock Chimes and Strike

[Naif Baidoon]

I am trying to restore this Herschede grandfather clock movement. It is ticking fine now but the chime and the strike have got me puzzled on how to properly adjust them. Right now the fly wheels need assistance to get them going but i think its just a problem of things not being in proper position. They do not move into warning and then the fly wheels need a little push to get moving. The chimes for the first three quarters will operate with my assistance but when it comes to chiming on the hour the lifting lever gets wedged down on the intermediate wheel
and stops everything. I have posted the youtube link above so you can watch what I am talking about.
This is my first Herschede movement I am working on so I may be a little slow on any suggestions on how to get the movement properly adjusted but any help is much appreciated.

 

[J. A. Olson]

There are likely many worn points that will have to be amended to make it run smoothly. Herschede clocks are great but they will get cantankerous when wear begins to set in. Also ensure the timing for the chime and strike warning is to the touch, there is no room for error on these clocks.

On the forum, see what Bruce Alexander or brian fisher have to say about repairing these movements.
Steven Conover has written about repairing these clocks and there is also this site which has some nice photos:

Herschede Grandfather Clock

Herschede 5 tube grandfather clock

www.abbeyclock.com

 

[Dick Feldman]

During the period that Herschede was in financial decline, Jauch movements were used in their clocks and those clocks did not have the characteristic quality.
As was mentioned, that movement, regardless of the manufacture likely needs to have wear addressed to be reliable.
The last Herschede clock came out of the factory in 1984.
That makes the movement at least 38 years old.
A normal, expected lifespan for a Jauch movement is 20-25 years.
Adjusting will not make that clock run and be reliable.
Best,
Dick

 

[J. A. Olson]

The movement shown is an A-9 tubular bell chime, entirely manufactured in USA. The German Jauch movements were all rod chimes and much smaller in size. Herschede also tried out their own chainwind rod chime movements between 1975-1980 which look similar to an Urgos design.

When Herschede was approaching the end in 1982, Kieninger rod chime cable driven movements were also used. They were identical to those used by Sligh, Howard Miller, Kuempel and other firms. You can see a video of a 'Herschede/Kieninger' here:

 

[Naif Baidoon]

During the period that Herschede was in financial decline, Jauch movements were used in their clocks and those clocks did not have the characteristic quality.
As was mentioned, that movement, regardless of the manufacture likely needs to have wear addressed to be reliable.
The last Herschede clock came out of the factory in 1984.
That makes the movement at least 38 years old.
A normal, expected lifespan for a Jauch movement is 20-25 years.
Adjusting will not make that clock run and be reliable.
Best,
Dick

Based upon the serial number of the movement it was manufactured in the early 60’s. The movement looks like it went through a complete overhaul as it looks like it was completely rebushed. If I could figure out how to get the movement to go into warning and what the adjustment on the lifter should be done I think I could get this thing working. The time train is working very well.
My understanding of herschede movements is that they are the crown jewel of grandfather clocks but there seems to be the least amount of information on how to repair them. I am using Conover’s book to reference to but it’s not that easy to follow for the novice, not every issue to correct seems to be explained. This movement may make me or break me.

 

[Dick Feldman]

My apologies for deflecting the discussion.
Herschede tube chime movements operate with high power throughout and all models will suffer power problems with time.
When a 60 year old movement appears to have been properly rebuilt, that may not be a good indicator of health. That proper rebuild could have happened 30 years ago which would give the movement more than enough time to wear out a second time.
The first and primary trouble shooting action should be to check for wear/power in all trains.
The chime train has the largest weight because it has the greatest need for energy (and will be the first to fail).
Since the chime train must operate to make the strike train operate, a faulty chime train will stop everything except the time train.
Many times a low power situation will read as something out of adjustment. An unreliable clock train will appear to be out of adjustment when that is only a symptom of low power.
Think, for a moment on what would caused the train to be out of synchronization.
The most logical cause of a chime train to be out of adjustment would be that an inexperienced repair person had messed with it.
All of the adjusting and fiddling cannot properly solve a power problem.
Best of luck with your clock,
Dick

 

[Naif Baidoon]

My apologies for deflecting the discussion.
Herschede tube chime movements operate with high power throughout and all models will suffer power problems with time.
When a 60 year old movement appears to have been properly rebuilt, that may not be a good indicator of health. That proper rebuild could have happened 30 years ago which would give the movement more than enough time to wear out a second time.
The first and primary trouble shooting action should be to check for wear/power in all trains.
The chime train has the largest weight because it has the greatest need for energy (and will be the first to fail).
Since the chime train must operate to make the strike train operate, a faulty chime train will stop everything except the time train.
Many times a low power situation will read as something out of adjustment. An unreliable clock train will appear to be out of adjustment when that is only a symptom of low power.
Think, for a moment on what would caused the train to be out of synchronization.
The most logical cause of a chime train to be out of adjustment would be that an inexperienced repair person had messed with it.
All of the adjusting and fiddling cannot properly solve a power problem.
Best of luck with your clock,
Dick

Thanks for your reply. The clock had a broken stop strike pin which I repaired. Then I cleaned and oiled it. Now I am trying to get the thing properly set. At that point I can better determine what the issue is. Not sold that its all a power issue yet.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

Sometimes you can squeeze out a little more time by adjusting the Chime Fan/Governor so that the blades are set to a smaller (faster) diameter. A healthy Chime Train should be able to power through the full 8-bell Whittington Melody with the blades fully extended without fail, but as wear begins to siphon power it may become necessary to adjust the governor in such a manner until a proper overhaul is possible. I'm making several assumptions here but this fan adjustment may be worth a try if you haven't done so already. If you make adjustments make sure that the blades are set in an identical but opposite manner so that the fan is perfectly balanced.

Good luck

 

[Naif Baidoon]

Sometimes you can squeeze out a little more time by adjusting the Chime Fan/Governor so that the blades are set to a smaller (faster) diameter. A healthy Chime Train should be able to power through the full 8-bell Whittington Melody with the blades fully extended without fail, but as wear begins to siphon power it may become necessary to adjust the governor in such a manner until a proper overhaul is possible. I'm making several assumptions here but this fan adjustment may be worth a try if you haven't done so already. If you make adjustments make sure that the blades are set in an identical but opposite manner so that the fan is perfectly balanced.

Good luck

Thanks for that info but I think I am going to first check where the lifting lever is dropping at the quarter hour. I want to check and see the lifting points. The lifting lever is jaming the gear when I set it to lift at every quarter. I think when I can get that set properly set I will be able to get a good handle on what is happening.

 

[JimmyOz]

Looking at the video the strike is set to run and when you get to the 1/4 past the hour you have to force the lever to get the 1/4 past to run, I am thinking because the warning pin on the strike is still engaged, I would look at the strike and work out what is happening with that before you brake something, once you have an idea on the strike then look at the chime.
It may well be a power issue as other have said, if so, try pulling the weight and see if the strike and/or chime work with some help.
My view is it a combination of the two, not in sync and power.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

Well, suit yourself but of course you shouldn't need to kick-start the governor to get the train running.
The adjustment I described is quick, easy and completely reversible.
JO may be right. You may have several things wrong with this movement and diagnostics will be a matter of elimination.

Good luck

 

[Naif Baidoon]

Looking at the video the strike is set to run and when you get to the 1/4 past the hour you have to force the lever to get the 1/4 past to run, I am thinking because the warning pin on the strike is still engaged, I would look at the strike and work out what is happening with that before you brake something, once you have an idea on the strike then look at the chime.
It may well be a power issue as other have said, if so, try pulling the weight and see if the strike and/or chime work with some help.
My view is it a combination of the two, not in sync and power.

I would like to work on strike but I cant get the lifting pin to work properly. I can get it work on the quarters and then it will drop to far and jam the gear. If I adjust it to go past the hour it will not lift the quarters. This is a complicated movement.

 

[Bruce Alexander]

One thing you should do is to secure the Chime/Silence lever in the "Chime" position. There are detents in the Clock's Face which hold it in the desired setting. Without the Face you must secure it up (Chime) some other way. Try just holding it up with your free hand first to see if it makes any difference. Reference the Clock's face to approximate the proper "setting".

Regards

 

[Bruce Alexander]

It would seem that perhaps our OP has solved the problem?

Another satisfied customer.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

It would seem that perhaps our OP has solved the problem?

Another satisfied customer.

Sorry for the delay, but here is an update. Making progress, movement not locking up anymore. Chimes working properly but lack power. Replaced 6 bushings on back plate for the chime and strike. What is up with the brass on this movement snapped two reamers on it. I want to replace the eccentric bushings on the front but don't know if you bush the existing hole on the screw or do you replace the screw that has a new bushing? What is the proper method of replacing the bushing?

 

[wow]

Naïf, what eccentric bushings are you referring to?

 

[JimmyOz]

There is eccentric bushings on the 2 fly's and one on the verge, you do not move them as they are set. if you need to bush the pivot holes you just do it the same way as any other bush.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

There is eccentric bushings on the 2 fly's and one on the verge, you do not move them as they are set. if you need to bush the pivot holes you just do it the same way as any other bush.

Thanks, whenI look at the chime fan bushing with magnification it looks a bit elongated so I am going to change.

 

[wow]

There is eccentric bushings on the 2 fly's and one on the verge, you do not move them as they are set. if you need to bush the pivot holes you just do it the same way as any other bush.

Ok. So I have a question. I have often wondered about those. Why were they made that way to begin with? Maybe for a one time adjustment at the factory? I have adjusted them before with success.

 

[shutterbug]

I never mess with eccentric bushings unless there is a clear and obvious need. If the slot is buggered up, it's from someone fiddling with it before.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

I was late to reading Shutterbug's post. i ended installing about 8 new bushings including those eccentric bushings. Could not see anything until I looking with magnification I see why you don't want to mess with them because they will tear up our reamer. Power does not seem to be an issue now but what is an issue is the pallet climbing up on the rack. It gets to the last tooth and slips back before it can lock down.
Anyone with suggestions on what to try to adjust before I mess with it is greatly appreciated.

Video of issue:

 

[Naif Baidoon]

When the movement starts to chime it will climb the rack but when it gets past the last tooth the hook will not drop and the it continues to run. How should I approach to correct this?

 

[wow]

Try removing the gathering pallet and turning it 1/4 turn and re installing it. If that doesn’t correct it, move it 1/4 turn again and try it.

 

[wow]

I made a suggestion in your post in the clock repair section.

 

[wingardclocks]

It's been a while, The gathering pallet has a specific installation with this movement for it to work properly.
Steve Conover's repair book explains this very well. If needed contact me and I'll take pics of the page/s and email.
You could buy the book. it's full of great references.

I watched the video. By chance was a new bushing installed behind the gathering pallet. I see the pallet isn't advancing the rack enough to allow the lever to drop on it's own, but it is very close to doing so. If the busing is worn or mis-installed from center (to the left) this might be the problem. If no bushing was installed, see if the gathering pallet can be moved to the right with your finger.
Hope this helps

 

[Naif Baidoon]

It's been a while, The gathering pallet has a specific installation with this movement for it to work properly.
Steve Conover's repair book explains this very well. If needed contact me and I'll take pics of the page/s and email.
You could buy the book. it's full of great references.

I watched the video. By chance was a new bushing installed behind the gathering pallet. I see the pallet isn't advancing the rack enough to allow the lever to drop on it's own, but it is very close to doing so. If the busing is worn or mis-installed from center (to the left) this might be the problem. If no bushing was installed, see if the gathering pallet can be moved to the right with your finger.
Hope this helps

I think your spot on. After looking and thinking more about it last night, the shaft that the pallet rides on seems to have a little to much room in the bushing I will replace it. This just might do the trick. Thank you.

 

[wingardclocks]

but now you have me scratching my head, wondering why

I'm wondering why in your very first video the lever fell into place with no problem. Did you by chance install a bushing in the rear of that wheel after the fisrt video?

 

[shutterbug]

Basically you are coordinating the stop pin with the rack hook dropping into the stop position after the last tooth is gathered. There are several ways to correct that situation, but the gathering pallet is the easiest.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

but now you have me scratching my head, wondering why

I'm wondering why in your very first video the lever fell into place with no problem. Did you by chance install a bushing in the rear of that wheel after the fisrt video?

Yes I installed a new bushing. I also noticed that the shaft that held the pallet was bent so I decided to straighten it out. Little did I know it could have been bent in order to make it work. A few days latter after it was straighten the tip of the shaft breaks off so I am glueing it on the shaft to hold it on.

Basically you are coordinating the stop pin with the rack hook dropping into the stop position after the last tooth is gathered. There are several ways to correct that situation, but the gathering pallet is the easiest.

Shutterbug, what are the ways to adjust the pallet ? Other than trying different positions on the shaft what else can you do, file it?

 

[wingardclocks]

Yes I installed a new bushing. I also noticed that the shaft that held the pallet was bent so I decided to straighten it out. Little did I know it could have been bent in order to make it work. A few days latter after it was straighten the tip of the shaft breaks off so I am glueing it on the shaft to hold it on.


Shutterbug, what are the ways to adjust the pallet ? Other than trying different positions on the shaft what else can you do, file it?

the rack or rack hook could have been filed.
When new, the gathering pallet on this particular movement has to filed to a custom fit to operate properly.

 

[wingardclocks]

I doubt "gluing" will hold up very long if at all. Drill the shaft and install new end.

 

[wingardclocks]

Herschede and Jauch - 3 Weight Tubular Bell Movement Parts - Page 1 - GRIFFEN'S CLOCK PARTS AND SUPPLIES LLC

griffensclocks.com

4th item from left, this is what you need. If you are not skilled enough to remove & install the wheel on new shaft ship to me I'll do free of charge, you pay shipping

 

[shutterbug]

If the shaft of the GP is round, you can take it off, reposition it and test. It may take a few tries.

 

[wingardclocks]

If the shaft of the GP is round, you can take it off, reposition it and test. It may take a few tries.

The shaft is square, 4 possible positions. None of which will work if the other related wheels aren't assembled in their proper position

 

[shutterbug]

I'd try each of the four positions first. If that doesn't work, go to plan B

 

[wingardclocks]

He can't because it broke off and he glued it back on

 

[J. A. Olson]

All pinned wheels and gathering pallets must be in perfect alignment for the chimes/strike to work as they should.
When I try out a chime movement after reassembly, I run each train by hand to check for anything that may be out of sync.
If something out of sync, it's better to realign the pinned wheels instead of trying to change the pallet position.
If the pallet is not in the right position, it should not be moved by sheer force - this will simply break the tip of the arbor off.

Friction-fit gathering pallets and cams do not normally adjust on their arbor, with very few confirmed exceptions.
Gluing a broken pallet back on its arbor is guaranteed to fail sooner or later. It doesn't have the same structural integrity as a solid, intact arbor.

Herschede clocks are great but they require experience and hands-on knowledge of the design to effectively service, repair, upkeep.
They are not clocks for beginners.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

All pinned wheels and gathering pallets must be in perfect alignment for the chimes/strike to work as they should.
When I try out a chime movement after reassembly, I run each train by hand to check for anything that may be out of sync.
If something out of sync, it's better to realign the pinned wheels instead of trying to change the pallet position.
If the pallet is not in the right position, it should not be moved by sheer force - this will simply break the tip of the arbor off.

Friction-fit gathering pallets and cams do not normally adjust on their arbor, with very few confirmed exceptions.
Gluing a broken pallet back on its arbor is guaranteed to fail sooner or later. It doesn't have the same structural integrity as a solid, intact arbor.

Herschede clocks are great but they require experience and hands-on knowledge of the design to effectively service, repair, upkeep.
They are not clocks for beginners.

I believe its going to work now. It is working while I turn it by hand. Redoing the bushing seems to have done the trick. Glue will have to work until I can find another gathering pallet assembly.
Without Steven Conover’s book I would not have a chance of getting this movement to run but gear by gear I think I will get there.
Thanks for your input.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

I doubt "gluing" will hold up very long if at all. Drill the shaft and install new end.

Where do I find a square metal end that fits a round hole and how do you secure it to the hole. Seems really difficult to soder straight.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

Herschede and Jauch - 3 Weight Tubular Bell Movement Parts - Page 1 - GRIFFEN'S CLOCK PARTS AND SUPPLIES LLC

griffensclocks.com

4th item from left, this is what you need. If you are not skilled enough to remove & install the wheel on new shaft ship to me I'll do free of charge, you pay shipping

Thank you very much for your offer. I did purchase a new shaft from Griffen Clocks but with the new shaft I won’t be able to use the old pallet and the pallet that fits on the new shaft is smaller than my existing one. If my glue does not work I know there is some type of cement out there that will work.

 

[wingardclocks]

Thank you very much for your offer. I did purchase a new shaft from Griffen Clocks but with the new shaft I won’t be able to use the old pallet and the pallet that fits on the new shaft is smaller than my existing one. If my glue does not work I know there is some type of cement out there that will work.

I would buy the gathering pallet from the same place you got the new shaft. It will be a time saver in the end

 

[Naif Baidoon]

I believe its going to work now. It is working while I turn it by hand. Redoing the bushing seems to have done the trick. Glue will have to work until I can find another gathering pallet assembly.
Without Steven Conover’s book I would not have a chance of getting this movement to run but gear by gear I think I will get there.
Thanks for your input.

Put the movement back together and the glued up pallet is working. The pallet could be a little closer to the rack. I may redo it latter. Syncing up the strike and chime is going to be a real challenge.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

Put the movement back together and the glued up pallet is working. The pallet could be a little closer to the rack. I may redo it latter. Syncing up the strike and chime is going to be a real challenge.

Got the chimes working having some problems with the strike.
The warning wheel pin is not being released because the double lever is not getting enough lift to release the pin. When i release it by giving it help with my figure the warning pin is touching the stop as it comes around. Just need a 1/16 to clear it but where do I get it from?
Video

 

[shutterbug]

Insufficient lift is often caused by wear in the center shaft. They wear downward due to the stress of lifting levers all the time. Check for excessive movement up and down there before you alter anything else.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

Insufficient lift is often caused by wear in the center shaft. They wear downward due to the stress of lifting levers all the time. Check for excessive movement up and down there before you alter anything else.

Please look at my latest video and see if this indicates anything.

Insufficient lift is often caused by wear in the center shaft. They wear downward due to the stress of lifting levers all the time. Check for excessive movement up and down there before you alter anything else.

Are you referring to the center shaft on the strike train? The center, center shaft was replaced with a new one. Please also look at my latest video to see if there is something else I should do. The strike will not release unless I help it. In the video I push down on the chime shutoff to release it. Thank you.

 

[wingardclocks]

no video

 

[shutterbug]

Wiggle the center shaft up and down. If there's play there, it will need to be bushed.

 

[Naif Baidoon]

no video

 

[wingardclocks]

sorry i cant view videos on this site anymore? they just show as pictures

 

[shutterbug]

sorry i cant view videos on this site anymore? they just show as pictures

The links should work, but you could try copying and pasting right into your browser. If that also doesn't work, it must be a computer issue.