Adams & Perry serial numbers

burt

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Fred,

You are correct! I was going by the initials that Bonham's posted for this auction and was not aware of the prior sale. Let's call it "very unique" as we are now aware of 2 movements. In any event I'm on it and let's see what we can come up with for the board.

I do appreciate your posting and input and thank you for helping out as we have tried our best to be accurate and competent with our work.

burt
 

John Cote

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Let's call it "very unique" as we are now aware of 2 movements.
Burt,

It's a free country. You can call it "very unique" if you want to but unique means only on thing. It means one of a kind. Something can't be very or sort of or kinda unique. Unique is only one thing. You can't be sort of one of a kind...you either are or you aren't. :):eek::cop:
 

burt

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Well after all I've written on the subject that's the only thing you can comment on? You seem to have been very silent on the dozens of new and never before uncovered facts about Adams and Perry that George and I found. Never commented on the Bulletin Article or what we wrote in the "Guide" or anything else? Wow....................!
 
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gmeyer4

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If we are bringing out the anal english types then "on thing":???:.... So, unless your married to the oxford dictionary every day english is ok to use a modifier with unique.

Can we discuss watches and not slapping people about their english, geezzzz

"However, this is a very prescriptive view which says that English ought to be a certain way. Not everyone thinks that "very unique" is unintelligible, and other dictionary entries just say unique means:
very special, unusual, or good
In short, there is no one opinion on how unique should be used. Some people use it as you have, and others think you would be wrong. It all depends on what you think the definition of unique should be, and even dictionaries disagree on this."


Burt,

It's a free country. You can call it "very unique" if you want to but unique means only on thing. It means one of a kind. Something can't be very or sort of or kinda unique. Unique is only one thing. You can't be sort of one of a kind...you either are or you aren't. :):eek::cop:
 

Bryan Eyring

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Burt,

It's a free country. You can call it "very unique" if you want to but unique means only on thing. It means one of a kind. Something can't be very or sort of or kinda unique. Unique is only one thing. You can't be sort of one of a kind...you either are or you aren't. :):eek::cop:
After personally handling all of these in NYC I observed only one truly unique movement (which was an absolute steal!) and only a few handful of unique features relative to the others.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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I've updated the list. Feel free to make additions and corrections as needed.

1 Marked Adams Perry
31 - 21 jewel George Franklin - Original design
34 - 21 jewel J Fred. Sener - Original design
1868 (possibly intended to be a date rather than a serial number??...or maybe not) has a monogram between "18" and "68" that I can't make out (see Ehrhardt 1980 price indicator page 92). Nickel plates.


1018-Nickel, Lancaster
1201(?) (Townsend line drawing)

1269 (from an old adv. block cut)
1293-Gilt
1353-Gilt
1357-"
1363-"
1366-"
1387-"
1391-"
1408-"
1415-Nickel & Gilt (ex Townsend)
1426-Gilt
1448-"
1452-"
1474-"
1497-"
1524-Gilt
1530-Nickel & Gilt (see Sauer's Hamilton book)
1550-Gilt
1568(?)-Nickel---movement is signed only "H. G. Turner" and there is no serial number visible on the train plate. On pillar plate underneath the dial (which was missing) is a "1" over "568". This one passed through the well known auction site earlier this year.
1585-Gilt
1593-"
1638-"
1652-"
1666-Gilt, C. F. Rudolph
1681-"
1687-"
1747-"
1751-Nickel & Gilt
1762-Gilt
1774-"
1795-"
1940-Gilt, C. F. Rudolph
2005-Nickel
2009-"
2023-"
2030-"
2031-"
2032-"
2041-"
2042-"
2045-"
2047-"
2063-"
2065-"
2077-"
2088
2488-? (ad cut showing a mvt marked "ACME Stand'd Am'n Watch Co. Pittsburgh"

36024--20j Lancaster, Pa.
36030
36034--"
36034--Keystone
36044--Lancaster, Pa.
36058--Lancaster, Pa., two-tone
36062--Lancaster, Pa.
36068
36070
36122--20j Keystone

154005--Wm. Penn

316082--Keystone
316106--20j Keystone
316172--20j Keystone

 

burt

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Greg,

Thank you for your work. Once again I give you the credit for getting this going and so far it has proved to be an interesting and certainly learning experience for us all who value the history of our collecting habits.

Perhaps you would like to separate the first and second models? For example 1018 is a 1st Model that is 21 jewel and has all 3 of Perry's patents.
 
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burt

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Serial 1940 is signed with the same Rudolph marking on the movement, I believe its C.F. Rudolph and this watch is marked with the name on the gold case also. It sold in last year's December Bonhams auction.

Serial 1751 is combination nickel and gilt finish, similar to two others in the list earlier in this thread.

Fred,

Good clue and certainly provided enough information to get us started out on the right track. It appears there was a Charles F. Rudolph who was a jeweler and was working at 231 Market Street in Wilmington, Delaware ( I believe that city is engraved on the watch?) in the circa. 1880's time frame. I think we can conclude the watch movement is certainly a private label ( for sale) and not just a signed for the owner piece? I think this also supports that A&P/Lancaster was now expanding out from local jewelers fairly early in their history.

I feel this is the type of information that readers/collectors (30,000+on this thread alone) on the board are looking for and hopefully demonstrates we are an organization that actually can work together for the general good of our hobby.
 
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Fred Hansen

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Re: Adams & Perry serial numbers

Greg -

Great job keeping and posting the updated list here, and a few more additions and notes can be made from yesterday's sale ...

1649, gilt (was cataloged in error as serial 1640)

1748, gilt, in an 18K G.W. Russell Philad signed case and has an unsigned Roman numeral snap on dial

1753, gilt

2031 - (serial recorded on list, but worth note its signed "Adjusted" on the pillar plate)

2074, nickel

2097, nickel, in an 18K E.F. Bowman signed case and has an Arabic numeral snap on dial signed "Lancaster, PA" in script.

36044 - (serial recorded on list, but movement is signed "Keystone Watch Co.")

The E.H. Perry signed prototype movement could be added to the list too with some description of markings and features

- - - Updated - - -

Another to add to the list from earlier in this thread ...

1018, original serial #18, nickel signed "Lancaster Watch Co., Penn, Perry's Patents", pictured by George in post #277
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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The E.H. Perry signed prototype movement could be added to the list too with some description of markings and features

1 Marked Adams Perry & Co.
31 - 21 jewel George Franklin - Original design
34 - 21 jewel J Fred. Sener - Original design
1018, original serial #18, nickel signed "Lancaster Watch Co., Penn, Perry's Patents", pictured by George in post #277
________________

1868 (possibly intended to be a date rather than a serial number??...or maybe not) has a monogram between "18" and "68" that I can't make out (see Ehrhardt 1980 price indicator page 92). Nickel plates.
______________________________

1201(?) (Townsend line drawing)

1269 (from an old adv. block cut)
1293-Gilt
1353-Gilt
1357-"
1363-"
1366-"
1387-"
1391-"
1408-"
1415-Nickel & Gilt (ex Townsend)
1426-Gilt
1448-"
1452-"
1474-"
1497-"
1524-Gilt
1530-Nickel & Gilt (see Sauer's Hamilton book)
1550-Gilt
1568(?)-Nickel---movement is signed only "H. G. Turner" and there is no serial number visible on the train plate. On pillar plate underneath the dial (which was missing) is a "1" over "568". This one passed through the well known auction site earlier this year.
1585-Gilt
1593-"
1638-"
1649-"
1652-"
1666-Gilt, C. F. Rudolph
1681-"
1687-"
1747-"
1748, gilt, in an 18K G.W. Russell Philad signed case and has an unsigned Roman numeral snap on dial
1751-Nickel & Gilt
1753-Gilt
1762-Gilt
1774-"
1795-"
1940-Gilt, C. F. Rudolph
2005-Nickel
2009-"
2023-"
2030-"
2031-"-
"Adjusted" on the pillar plate
2032-"
2041-"
2042-"
2045-"
2047-"
2063-"
2065-"
2074-"
2077-"
2088
2097, nickel, in an 18K E.F. Bowman signed case and has an Arabic numeral snap on dial signed "Lancaster, PA" in script.
2488-? (ad cut showing a mvt marked "ACME Stand'd Am'n Watch Co. Pittsburgh"
_______________________________

36024--20j Lancaster, Pa.
36030
36034--
36034--Keystone
36044--Keystone
36058--Lancaster, Pa., two-tone
36062--Lancaster, Pa.
36068
36070
36122--20j Keystone

154005--Wm. Penn

316082--Keystone
316106--20j Keystone
316172--20j Keystone

 
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Fred Hansen

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Re: Adams & Perry serial numbers

Looks like I missed 1018 already being on Greg's list. I do agree with Burt that a separation by models would be useful.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Data from rare price lists on the 20 jewel mvts generally:

July 1883, Bowman & Musser

img820.jpg img821.jpg img822.jpg img823.jpg

Note Breguet hairspring on Nos. 1 and 3 but not on nos. 15 and 16 and Wm. Penn and Delaware.

Jan. 1884 S. F. Meyers

img818.jpg img819.jpg

Only nos. 15 and 16 and Delaware are offered in this catalog.
 

Tom McIntyre

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Oops! Sorry, I posted in the wrong thread.
 
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burt

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GREG,

Nice find. I was particularly impressed with the price and verbiage in the catalog listing on the Wm. Penn. This was truly one of the models that kept us at bay as we never had one to look at or was there one in the data base. The only picture we had (and it didn't reproduce very well) and somewhat abbreviated description was in James Gibbs, Bulletin article of December 1974,#173, Volume XVI,No.7. As one was recently sold at auction I hope the new owner would share what he may learn from examining the watch. Hair spring type as the catalog didn't mention it etc. My guess would be the Breguet based on the high selling price even though not mentioned. I think the hefty price may account for the scarcity of watches that survive today?
 
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Fred Hansen

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36034 is listed twice and with different markings, the movement is marked "Lancaster, PA" and was in last December's Bonhams sale
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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36034 is listed twice and with different markings, the movement is marked "Lancaster, PA" and was in last December's Bonhams sale
Thanks Fred. Jones-Horan note 36034 as a "Lancaster" in an old auction but no picture is available, so unless there are 2 #36034s then Keystone it is.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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A comment on survival. There are 16 mvts recorded in the run of nickel mvts from 2001-2100, which is actually a rather good percentage. For comparison, there is data on 38 open-face 15 Ruby Jewel Auroras in the run of 300 from 101001-300.
 

4thdimension

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Nothing to add but bravo for the effort here. I note that Greg's original tally of A&P's has grown from 15 to 75 (roughly); a worthy effort indeed! Is there an estimate of the actual number made? -Cort
 

burt

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Nothing to add but bravo for the effort here. I note that Greg's original tally of A&P's has grown from 15 to 75 (roughly); a worthy effort indeed! Is there an estimate of the actual number made? -Cort
Check out George's post on 8-8-15 on this thread and he pretty well spells it out.
 

burt

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Thanks Fred. Jones-Horan note 36034 as a "Lancaster" in an old auction but no picture is available, so unless there are 2 #36034s then Keystone it is.
This movement is explained in our Bulletin article. Lancaster Watch Company (2) "At this point (!881) the firm made an attempt to market a high grade 20 jewel watch, the Lancaster, Pa. (36XXX) using the original name, perhaps a tribute to the original Perry designed movement, but this time in an 18 size model with cap-jeweled escapement and gold settings ,production was limited to less than a few hundred."

As I don't expect anyone to comment on this post, and it appears that what I do write is of little interest, as I receive very little feed back or comments, this is my last post on the subject. Have fun. I'm out.
 
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Greg Frauenhoff

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This movement is explained in our Bulletin article. Lancaster Watch Company (2) "At this point (!881) the firm made an attempt to market a high grade 20 jewel watch, the Lancaster, Pa. (36XXX) using the original name, perhaps a tribute to the original Perry designed movement, but this time in an 18 size model with cap-jeweled escapement and gold settings ,production was limited to less than a few hundred."

As I don't expect anyone to comment on this post, and it appears that what I do write is of little interest, as I receive very little feed back or comments, this is my last post on the subject. Have fun. I'm out.
Burt,

I find what you and George write to be very interesting. Not sure what the problem is.

Greg
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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If any of the readers won some of the recent Lancaster/Keystone watches it sure would be neat to see them here.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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The E.H. Perry signed prototype movement could be added to the list too with some description of markings and features

1 Marked Adams Perry & Co.
31 - 21 jewel George Franklin - Original design
34 - 21 jewel J Fred. Sener - Original design
1018, original serial #18, nickel signed "Lancaster Watch Co., Penn, Perry's Patents", pictured by George in post #277
________________

1868 (possibly intended to be a date rather than a serial number??...or maybe not) has a monogram between "18" and "68" that I can't make out (see Ehrhardt 1980 price indicator page 92). Nickel plates.
______________________________

1201(?) (Townsend line drawing)

1269 (from an old adv. block cut)
1293-Gilt
1353-Gilt
1357-"
1363-"
1366-"
1387-"
1391-"
1397-"
1408-"
1415-Nickel & Gilt (ex Townsend)
1426-Gilt
1448-"
1452-"
1474-"
1497-"
1524-Gilt
1530-Nickel & Gilt (see Sauer's Hamilton book)
1550-Gilt
1568(?)-Nickel---movement is signed only "H. G. Turner" and there is no serial number visible on the train plate. On pillar plate underneath the dial (which was missing) is a "1" over "568". This one passed through the well known auction site earlier this year.
1585-Gilt
1586-"
1593-"
1638-"
1649-"
1652-"
1666-Gilt, C. F. Rudolph
1681-"
1687-"
1747-"
1748, gilt, in an 18K G.W. Russell Philad signed case and has an unsigned Roman numeral snap on dial
1751-Nickel & Gilt
1753-Gilt
1762-Gilt
1774-"
1795-"
1940-Gilt, C. F. Rudolph
2005-Nickel
2009-"
2023-"
2030-"
2031-"-"Adjusted" on the pillar plate
2032-"
2041-"
2042-"
2045-"
2047-"
2063-"
2065-"
2074-"
2077-"
2088
2097, nickel, in an 18K E.F. Bowman signed case and has an Arabic numeral snap on dial signed "Lancaster, PA" in script.
2488-? (ad cut showing a mvt marked "ACME Stand'd Am'n Watch Co. Pittsburgh"
_______________________________

36024--20j Lancaster, Pa.
36030
36034--
36034--Keystone
36044--Keystone
36058--Lancaster, Pa., two-tone
36062--Lancaster, Pa.
36068
36070
36122--20j Keystone

154005--Wm. Penn

316082--Keystone
316106--20j Keystone
316172--20j Keystone
 

Luca

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I won one lot consisting of 2 recased movements + 1 maybe orig. cased watch...these will need repair. I will post some pics when I have them in hand.
Luca
 

Luca

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So I figured the movements I purchased in one bulk lot of 3 at Bonhams NY would have issues but I didn't expect to the degree I have discovered. :mad: Caveat Emptor - I never learn.

Firstly I should have paid more attention to the mismatch of description vs pictures on the Bonhams site. Described were mvts nos 1640, 1751, 1753 with one of those being nickel and the other two gilt. What was pictured was 1649, 1753, 2074. I got what was pictured.

What was not described or shown is significant - not sure a potential buyer on site could have seen it all. Serial 2074 (nickel) is an utmost disaster - I thought it might be - but I can now confirm...the balance cock, pillar plate, balance wheel all have 2012 as serial no. - only the top plate has 2074 and it has been butchered. So this is a movement made up of 2 different nickel mvts. Wish I could find the original top plate for 2012 but that will never happen.

I believe at least two of the movements do not have original dials. This I figured as it's a common issue. One movement had the roller glued on (messily) and this has fallen off. I think this same staff has an incorrect balance wheel on it also (smaller than it should be).

There are assorted other issues that were evident from the Bonhams website - i.e. clicks. Overall a really pathetic batch of movements. I know they have some value due to rarity but they mostly need a good bit of work to be put right. The mismatched mvt I should have figured due to butchery.

One thing I do wonder is - given that these movements were put together by Lancaster - is it conceivable they mismatched the one movement? I guess I kind of doubt it.

If anyone wants to see pics let me know.

Luca
 

Fred Hansen

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Sorry to hear how those turned out. I've gone to the viewings for each of the auctions associated with this collection for an in hand look at everything ... there's been some great watches, some bad watches with substantial problems, and pretty much everything in between.

Looking at the catalog photo it appears that #2074 has a squared damaskeen pattern on the main plate and balance cock, but that the squares are different sizes. As comparison serials 2030 and 2031 in the preceding lot have squared patterns also and look to have a match in size between their main plate and balance cock.
 
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Luca

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So the difference in size of the squared patterns is indicative of a mismatch. Something I'd usually notice (on say a Waltham) but I guess I had stars in my eyes with these.

L
 

Fred Hansen

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Possibly, and if its not enough to be certain of a mismatch it's probably at least a good sign there might be one.

The patterns on serials 2030 and 2031 look to have a good match between main plate and balance cock while this one did not. Might be worth checking out a few more pics of nickel A&P movements with square type damaskeen to see how well any others match up.
 

dweiss17

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The most hits ever

Today I am 100 years and 37 days old…that's not the point…I also am more than a 50 year member of Chapter 1…which at one time was the leading Chapter in all the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors. Still, I think we may still have more members than any other NAWCC Chapter.

I very well remember the four or five ladies who were part of the reception group who signed you in when attending these [overflowing] crowds of members who used to attend our meetings held at the Holiday Inn on City Line Avenue in Philadelphia. We always had more members attending from the surrounding states than any other Chapter. Our lunch crowds were tremendous and we had a well-known speaker who presented a talk, often with a slide show, either watches or clocks were discussed… after lunch was served at each meeting.

Sadly, as our over all membership has dropped from those halcyon years, so has our Chapter 1 membership. It is a mere ghost of what once a leading Chapter in all the NAWCC. So much of the many members I once knew - have departed to another world…luckily. I am still in this world and still a Chapter 1 member for over the past 50-51 years. At one time any Chapter member who attained 50 years of NAWCC service was sent a Certificate denoting his/her long service to the Chapter and the NAWCC. My years in Chapter 1 were never noted. I do not know if this honor was done away with, or if it is just a failure of this Chapter to keep up with the present.

No matter, The Virtual Plaques inaugurated by me with the help of others takes care of anyone achieving such a milestone; we have 284 NAWCC members who have reached that goal. And, yearly, others will be added as their years of membership qualify them.

The last Chapter 1 meeting I attended could have been less than two years ago, when I sold Adams Perry & Co. No. 1448, manufactured by the Lancaster Watch Co. I seem to think the watch enthusiast who bought the beautifully cased timepiece came to the meeting especially to acquire the watch.

We now have more than 32,000 hits on the Adams & Perry pocket watch serial numbers…this includes all the stories of this Adams & Perry thread…it may have been started by me when someone posted a picture of an A&P watch with the wrong ratchet wheel some years ago on a Chapter that shall remain nameless.

The three main proponents of the A&P saga are Bert Cifrulak, George Meyers and me, with serial numbers started by Greg Frauenhoff.

I do not think any other [watch] ever had so much interest and discussion over its output of Adams & Perry pocket watches made by the original Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company and the Lancaster Watch Co.
 
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dweiss17

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Adams & Perry...January 19, 2008

January 19, 2008…I made a posting for an Adams & Perry #1585 pocket watch on a Chapter that is no more; this posting may have been the start of the Adams & Perry saga that now has over 32,200 hits and a number of posted articles on this long gone watch company…started in 1874-1875.

While we now understand the below story with photos is not wholly factual [in minor parts]. In the past eight (8) years we learn much more about this Adams Perry Watch Manufacturing Co., its demise and eventual takeover by the Lancaster Watch Co. Thanks to Burt Cifrulak, George Meyers and Greg Frauenhoff. These gentlemen have been the epitome of what an NAWCC member should be…by researching and passing along to the membership new knowledge in the discovery of facts, photos, serial numbers, and the history; involving the individuals of the companies that had a hand in producing the now famous Adams & Perry pocket watches.

As for my part in this saga, I claim no expertise, except for taking a badly damaged watch and making it tick once again in an almost unison with an electric clock. For me it was as satisfying an experience that I can equate with my over 50 years as a member of the National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors.


**********************************



#1585, I make no claims of personal expertise regarding the history of the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company and the companies that followed it. Charles Crossman is the most recognized historian of the early American watch companies. Some of the stated information in this article may have been taken from the papers of the
Lancaster Historical Society.

I do invite anyone who can further enlighten us on the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company or those wishing to dispute any part of this stated history or the pictorial display...to please engage in a dialog via the posting standards put forth by our Chapter.


***********************************

No one is now alive who existed when the Adams & Perry Watch Company was organized in the year 1874. Thus, some of my comments on this company in part is conjecture; it may also include some errata even though much of the information comes from the pen of Charles Crossman, a recognized historian of the early American watch companies that have disappeared over the years.

Charles Crossman wrote the history on the collapse of the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company and the companies that followed in its wake. I wish to thank Tom McIntyre for his input and pictures of both gilt and nickel movements of the Adams & Perry watches; Greg Davis for his for his kind response to my request for a post card picture of an advertisement featuring the Adams & Perry watches.

The story starts with my finding an Adams & Perry movement in the basement of a Watch Supply House that was in the throes of the same fate shared by at least six other watch suppliers in Philadelphia; they shut their doors...the pocket watch was passé. The movement I found had a broken staff, a shattered dial minus its hands, the regulator arm was missing, the mainspring broken and some minor screws were gone; leaving the rest of the movement intact. These movements are classed as 19 size. Even though the dial plate had provisions for 3 dial legs...they were cut off. A clamp ring similar to those on high-grade Swiss watches held the dial in place. Since the movement had holes drilled for the dial legs, why was a clamp ring necessary? I tried fitting the movement minus the clamp ring into a regular 18 size case, it was too large. Adding more mystery to a story we'll never be able to solve. Why the clamp ring and cut off dial legs?

We do know on the earlier Elgins and Walthams, among other watches, it was possible to interchange dials. The holes drilled for the dial legs were exact. I discovered that years ago and was recently reminded of that fact by a member of our Chapter.

Crossman, in his writings, makes no mention of dials* or of dial makers. Many dials on Swiss and American watch company products (Waltham) are similar to the Adams & Perry excepting the number of dial legs, dial size and centering of the second bit to fit the arbor carrying the second hand, are also nameless.

*In looking for a dial to replace the shattered original on the watch as I found it; it was replaced with a similar no-name dial that was not the best fit for this watch. The dial did not fill out the clamp ring and the center bit arbor to carry the second hand, really was not centered. Some days later, I remembered I had a box full of old discarded Lancaster and Keystone watch material. In going through the box I found a dial with the name LANCASTER, PA; putting it on the top plate, it was a perfect fit for the drilled dial legs. The circumference of the plate was filled perfectly; as was the clamp ring and the second bit also was a perfect fit. I was more than flabbergasted! While the dial has a few tiny rim chips...it will be as good as it gets. With the bezel screwed down, the dial for all intents and purposes is the answer to a rare find of an Adams & Perry movement. All the present dials on the few surviving Adams & Perry watches as far as we know...are nameless. This only serves to add more conjecture to an already mysterious and historical watch company.

The reader may now see (for the first time) pictures of one of these intriguing and beautiful Adams & Perry watches taken apart and put back together again in running fashion. The case, a fat 18 size screw on front and back Silveroid had to be altered to fit the movement. It also resulted in my robbing Peter to pay Paul by using a bezel from another case for the back of the movement to be seen under glass in sidewinder fashion.

These movements, all 20 jewels, stem wound and pendent set, were made for the popular hunter case of that period. One reference tells us they were purposely made 19 size in order for the purchaser to buy a case to fit the movement; possibly from the watch company itself. We do know the Brooklyn Watch Case Co. was a supplier of cases, in both gold and gold filled.

It would be interesting if some researcher of the history of the Brooklyn Watch Case Co. could come up with some definite proof of the number of watch cases it sold to the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company. (Do we know if Adams & Perry sold movements to jewelers who bought Brooklyn Watch Cases?) It could further our knowledge concerning the history and output of complete watches or movements produced by Adams & Perry and not a watch company that followed after the Adams & Perry failure.

Crossman goes into much detail about the subscribers* to the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company venture. I will just mention the name of three, J. C. Adams, E. H. Perry and E. J. Zahm; each of whom subscribed $5000. At a meeting of the stockholders June 13, 1874, a Board of Directors was elected and on June 15, 1874, E. J. Zahm was named President; Adams as General Manager and Perry, (besides J. C. Adams, the only one with watch making experience) was named Superintendent.

*That people agree to a stock subscription does not mean they will actually invest all the money promised by that subscription. This could be another reason for the shortage of funds the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company always faced and why they could never get off the ground in their efforts to make the Company a going concern. To place matters in context...$5000 in those years...is approximately equivalent to $1,000,000 today.

We learn in the Complete Price Guide to Watches by Shugart, the first movement serial #1, signed Adams & Perry Co., Lancaster, Penna., Perry Patents, #1 was marked with a "Z" near the click. We are told it's the first complete watch (produced April 7, 1876) by the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company and further learn the company closed in May 1876, less than a month after producing that first watch. Shugart also states that serial #1 with the "Z" was seen. I must presume, by him.

It is possible the movement marked with a "Z" could have been presented to the president of the company, E. J. Zahm. It seems the timepiece does exist, and is owned by a person not in close contact with the NAWCC.

Another individual NAWCC member also possesses the "Un-engraved Howard" I sold to Joe Loecy in 1986. He, for reasons unknown to me, did not wish me to publish the pictures of that movement. My recent story about the discovery of that timepiece (along with all the remaining pictures I had) was published on this web site for all NAWCC members to see and hopefully, to enjoy. The article and pictures drew over 1100 hits as of July 4, 2006.; a time remarkably short after its posting. This large amount of hits affirmed my desire to write about and let our NAWCC members read and see pictures of what may be the only movement that ever came out of the Howard factory without any engraving on it...even though it may have been pilfered and reworked to fit a Howard workman's fancy.

Since I was writing about the finding of serial A&P #1585, I naively wrote the wrong owner (person) asking for information and pictures and information on the watch with the "Z"* marked on it...the reply was negative and disturbing. In my fairness to this individual and his email diatribe to me, I will not print the reply I received except to say the last words of his email was, "Do not bother me." I thought even after an NAWCC membership of over 43 years...we were kindred spirits in our desire to help and learn from one another in this most intriguing of hobbies. Sadly, you and I, and our entire NAWCC membership may never learn about or see pictures of A&P serial #1.

*To add more conjecture to the history of the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company; it would not surprise me in the least, if the "Z" mark was scratched on the movement by some other owner of the watch attributed to Mr. Zahm. To date of this writing, we have no definite proof, no factory records, no history that the watch was given to E. J. Zahm. In the past, a watch claimed and engraved on the cuvette as belonging to President Lincoln turned up to be a falsehood. In all of 130 years, serial #1 could have been the property of a number of people who might be tempted to increase its value by putting such a simple mark near the click. I would like to think other engraving on the plate would have shown it as a presentation to the president of the watch company.

In reading Crossman's history regarding this company, we must understand with all possible conjecture only about 100-150, but certainly less than 1000 Adams & Perry were ever produced. However, it does seem likely these were finished by the Lancaster Watch Co. (My Lancaster, PA dial fitted perfectly (legs and all) to the Adams & Perry that I'm writing about...could prove that point.) They were the next in line after the Adams & Perry endeavor failed. Did the original company even finish one watch and give it to E.J. Zahm, before going bust? We cannot prove nor disprove this fact over a century and a quarter later.

That's what makes the conjecture of horological history so fascinating. The more we dig, the more questions arise. For example, only three other finished Adams & Perry movements are accounted for by picture and serial number. And, these serial numbers all follow the one Adams & Perry #1585, I have. This lack of information about existing Adams & Perry movements detracts from the efforts of the NAWCC membership to learn the most possible regarding one of our historically early and mysterious watch manufacturing companies.

In the effort to stay afloat, Adams & Perry surely left some stock holders with worthless stock paper. Do we have any examples of the certificates put out by them? Certainly, they must have issued stock certificates. If so, has a surviving certificate ever turned up?

Shugart in the watch book on page 105, pictures serial #1681. The Columbia NAWCC Museum has serial #1747, it is pictured in a gold plated salesman's sample case that had to be fitted to the movement with bezels holding glass crystals; this enables the viewer to see both dial and movement sides of the watch. The dial of this example is nameless. We have no information about the dial on #1681. My example serial #1585 has the Lancaster, PA named dial.

In further reflection regarding this LANCASTER, PA dial; we do know the Lancaster Company took over and finished some of the movements we call the Adams & Perry watch and that they drilled the holes for dial legs. Yet...the examples extant show nameless dials held by a clamp ring. I feel safe in thinking they may have used a number of the LANCASTER, PA dials on these movements and later thought it best to use a nameless dial. Until other movements turn up with or without LANCASTER. PA on the dial...I have the perfect right to think other Adams & Perry dials may have the LANCASTER, PA name on them...if existing at this time, some 130 years later...I doubt that anyone can prove otherwise.

Through the kindness of Tom McIntyre, we understand all pictured Adams & Perry gilt examples are signed in script lettering. We learn the nickel examples like serial #2042 are signed in Old English lettering and that the watches were produced in two blocks of gilt and nickel. The nickel ones all being signed in Old English lettering on the 3/4 plate. No other nickel examples have been verified to date of this writing. This nickel example does have a nameless dial similar to the original shattered one I found on my watch serial #1585.

To repeat, this history gets more confusing than ever, when we read only 100-150 or less than 1000 watch movements were produced as the Adams & Perry style movement. The known serial numbers 1585, 1681, 1747, and 2042, may or may not give proof or lie to that fact.

In my opinion, the history of the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company deserves the honor of being the most confusing tale in regards to an American watch company. Charles Crossman in his writings concerning the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company could have been misinformed on a number of issues in their history. Today, over 132 years after this company's start up, we will never be able to discern the truth.

While we have the papers of the Lancaster Historical Society and the writings of Charles Crossman in regards to this complex and challenging mystery; I really doubt if any more historical information will be coming forth concerning the Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Company. We can only hope that in the future other A&P watches (picture wise) will make their appearance and shed more light on this Company...than we already know.

I remembered seeing a post card showing a skeleton on a bicycle, the wheel being a facsimile of the Adams & Perry watch. In trying to track it down, I went from Tom McIntyre to Fred Hansen to Greg Davis via Cort Moore; I learned Greg Davis had been the poster of the picture. Greg was kind enough to repost the picture, enabling me to use it in this article. The picture of the post card advertisement will show Father Time as a skeleton, carrying a scythe on his shoulder as he peddled along on the bike, he was also holding a watch in his hand. I would like to think the artist's thought in his depiction was...we are all cut down by Father Time...yet...the Adams & Perry watch just keeps rolling along, regardless of the years it has seen.

The National Association of Watch and Clock Collectors in its never ending efforts to continue the study and preservation of these magnificently constructed and ingenious time-telling mechanical marvels...serves to promote and expand our fascinating and most interesting of hobbies...Horology. When we come across a historical timepiece or horologic item of interest, as members of NAWCC, I firmly believe, we have an obligation to share that rare, scarce, or beautiful watch with our full membership.


**********************************

Now, a final word by the author of this Adams & Perry Watch Manufacturing Co. story:

While the Adams & Perry watch that I have written about and supplied photographs of...is not what the PURIST would call "Up to snuff." It is my thought that in doing what I did to preserve a rare/scarce piece of horologic history...I did not make any statements contrary to known facts. I did not cross any boundary lines, did not use puffery, I did not accuse anyone of lying...I tried to convey the thought that we need proof of existing Adams & Perry watches in order to come to a better understanding of the history of the Adams & Perry company and the companies that followed.

Until such a time that more knowledge about these companies are known...we have no choice but to come to the point of conjecture.

It is my hope that those far more eloquent in writing and factual history respond to any of the above statements and pictures. As a member of this group, it has been my extreme pleasure to be able to write about my finding and restoration of Adams & Perry #1585.

Since putting together this story concerning the restoration of Adams & Perry #1585, I have learned of a total of 12 Adams & Perry watches may probably be known; although real pictured proof that a number of these exist has not been forthcoming.

At the present time almost on year later I have another Adams & Perry watch #1448, I'm working on…while it runs, the clutch and winding wheels are badly worn and need replacing need. At the time of its finding it had a broken staff. Bruce Aldo, one of our Chapter members did a great job in replacing a broken pivot.

Daniel M. Weiss, NAWCC #8331
 

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Luca

Registered User
Jan 19, 2004
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Re: The most hits ever

Congratulations on a milestone that few (if any) of us on this board will ever see!

And your enthusiasm and contributions to the A&P knowledge base.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

NAWCC Fellow
NAWCC Member
Aug 25, 2000
4,873
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The E.H. Perry signed prototype movement could be added to the list too with some description of markings and features

1 Marked Adams Perry & Co.
31 - 21 jewel George Franklin - Original design
34 - 21 jewel J Fred. Sener - Original design
1018, original serial #18, nickel signed "Lancaster Watch Co., Penn, Perry's Patents", pictured by George in post #277
________________

1868 (possibly intended to be a date rather than a serial number??...or maybe not) has a monogram between "18" and "68" that I can't make out (see Ehrhardt 1980 price indicator page 92). Nickel plates.
______________________________

1201(?) (Townsend line drawing)

1269 (from an old adv. block cut)
1293-Gilt
1353-Gilt
1357-"
1363-"
1366-"
1387-"
1391-"
1397-"
1408-"
1415-Nickel & Gilt (ex Townsend)
1426-Gilt
1448-"
1452-"
1474-"
1497-"
1524-Gilt
1530-Nickel & Gilt (see Sauer's Hamilton book)
1550-Gilt
1568(?)-Nickel---movement is signed only "H. G. Turner" and there is no serial number visible on the train plate. On pillar plate underneath the dial (which was missing) is a "1" over "568". This one passed through the well known auction site earlier this year.
1585-Gilt
1586-"
1593-"
1638-"
1649-"
1652-"
1666-Gilt, C. F. Rudolph
1681-"
1687-"
1747-"
1748, gilt, in an 18K G.W. Russell Philad signed case and has an unsigned Roman numeral snap on dial
1751-Nickel & Gilt
1753-Gilt
1762-Gilt
1774-"
1795-"
1940-Gilt, C. F. Rudolph
2005-Nickel
2009-"
2023-"
2030-"
2031-"-"Adjusted" on the pillar plate
2032-"
2041-"
2042-"
2045-"
2047-"
2063-"
2065-"
2074-"
2077-"
2088
2097, nickel, in an 18K E.F. Bowman signed case and has an Arabic numeral snap on dial signed "Lancaster, PA" in script.
2488-? (ad cut showing a mvt marked "ACME Stand'd Am'n Watch Co. Pittsburgh"
_______________________________

36024--20j Lancaster, Pa.
36030
36034--
36034--Keystone
36044--Keystone
36058--Lancaster, Pa., two-tone
36062--Lancaster, Pa.
36068
36070
36122--20j Keystone

154005--Wm. Penn

316082--Keystone
316106--20j Keystone
316172--20j Keystone
36032--20j Lancaster, Pa.
 

pmwas

Registered User
Dec 12, 2010
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If you also record 20j watches - you can add 20j gilt non dustproof Keystone S/N 317609

Actually, as my interest in Lancaster watches continues to grow, I've read this thread more thoroughly and I admit this is superb work - wonderful :)
 

pmwas

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Dec 12, 2010
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Some of you might have noticed - model 2 No 1753 bought on eBay from Luca.

One might say - so far so good - I got it a bimetallic Lancaster balance with just a few screws.
I'm actually waiting for a decent balance with decent screws Dave's sent me last week to complete this job :)

The original balance wheel is long gone, but I'm still pleased to have one of those :)

3AP.JPG

2AP.JPG

1AP.JPG

The monometallic balance had four original screws, incl. two mean time screws, but the threads on the mean time screws are so badly damaged (one even broken off - just one coil left) that I could only use two original balnace screws in the project :(
 

rrwatch

Gibbs Literary Award
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NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2000
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There was some question about the later 20 jewel Lancaster movements concerning whether they had single or double roller escapements.
I recently obtained S/N 36070 at the Chattanooga Regional. This nickle movement uses a single roller, and is marked "Lancaster, Pa.". BTW, the correct S/N is scratched on the underside of the balance arms so I believe the balance is original, although it needs a new staff.
I'll post some photos after the movement is cleaned and repaired, but it may be a while.
 

gmeyer4

NAWCC Member
Jul 21, 2005
180
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Just an FYI, my 3 examples of the 20 jewel serial numbers 36xxx all have double rollers.


There was some question about the later 20 jewel Lancaster movements concerning whether they had single or double roller escapements.
I recently obtained S/N 36070 at the Chattanooga Regional. This nickle movement uses a single roller, and is marked "Lancaster, Pa.". BTW, the correct S/N is scratched on the underside of the balance arms so I believe the balance is original, although it needs a new staff.
I'll post some photos after the movement is cleaned and repaired, but it may be a while.
 

gmeyer4

NAWCC Member
Jul 21, 2005
180
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Opps, my mistake... Yes, these three I have have a single roller while the later A&Ps have the double roller. Whats interesting is the A&P #1 has a single roller while the other two 1st model A&Ps have the double roller.
 

burt

NAWCC Member
Sep 5, 2008
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I don't know how many people saw the recent Bulletin article and story of George's restoration of Adams and Perry watch #34 made exclusively for J.Frederick Sener. I know he was very appreciative of "making the cover" with the split image of a "before and after" picture of the restoration. While very well done it wasn't with the project nearly completed. Actually the photo used was an early one in the process showing only the plates cleaned and doesn't illustrate all the work done with the metal work and regulator. Here are two pictures that clearly show a before the watch was restored and a final image of the movement after all work was completed. I'm posting this as his friend and certainly in the interest of those who appreciate the time and effort that was required to complete such work on what is a horological and historically important watch.

before.png 309449.jpg
 

4thdimension

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Oct 18, 2001
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Thank you for that "after" picture. The two-tone quality is much more clear. The Bulletin cover made it appear the watch had magically become an all gilt movement. I enjoyed the article a lot. Great restoration job!-Cort
 

Marty101

NAWCC Member
Oct 28, 2007
745
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GO BURTIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Thanks for that,Burt. George did some beautiful work saving that Lancaster-it was a real labor of love.
 

gmeyer4

NAWCC Member
Jul 21, 2005
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The intent was not to restore as in Pebble Beach restoration, but to retain as much of the original character as possible while bringing it back to a well running watch. 309459.jpg
 

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Paul Regan

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Well done George! Great article and superb work preserving the Sener watch. This exemplifies the true sprit of the Pritchard Prize.
Paul
 

Jim Haney

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Sep 21, 2002
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George,

I just finished the Bulletin article and want to thank you for this labor of love, to be able to save this historic timepiece.

Great Job !

You would have won if I was the judge !:chuckling::chuckling::excited::excited::clap::clap:
 
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