Adams & Perry serial numbers

burt

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Something to think about when reading any of those contemporary written accounts of history.

"The officers of the new company are all men of means, ability, and energy, with the reputation of having succeeded in every enterprise they have undertaken".

Henry Abbott, "The Watch Factories of America, Past and Present" 1888, writing about the "new" board of officers at Keystone.


From: "The Lancaster Law Review"
Monday, Dec. 22 1890
Common Pleas Court, Lancaster County, Pa. Walter Boardman et.al. VS. The Keystone Standard Watch Co., George M. Franklin et.al.
The Court Discharged the following opinion on Nov. 15,1890 by Livingston P.J.

In part: .............."That a decree be entered declaring all shares of stock which shall be found to have been issued to said George M. Franklin, J. Fred Sener, W.Z. Sener, Chars. N. Shellenberger, George Steinman, H.S. Franklin, and C. Stormfeiz, in violation of the law, to be fraudulent, fictious, and void, and as conferring no valid title upon them to such shares".....The defendants who shall be found to have unlawfully and fraudulently combined as officers and directors (of said company)....be decreed to be jointly and severally liable to pay......all such sums of money (back) as found to be due"..............


The case verdict goes on and on but basically says these guys "cooked the books" and were found guilty in court. It appears that when they invested, what was to be their cash into the company shares, no actual cash or real money was transacted.

George and burt
 

richiec

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Great research guys. My great grandfather, his brother and their partner lost their New York jewelery store and supply business because they used stockholder money for their own purposes rather than invest it in the company back in the 1920's and ended up in federal court and lost their 60+ year business as a result.
 

burt

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Richie, et. al.

Thanks for your kind words and story. Just keep in mind, it was a series of events that sunk Keystone. Reading the court documents it appears that the stock (in question) law suit was approximately a $50,000.00 issue. The economy in general, Bitner's royalties, poor management decisions to lower the quality of the watches and selling practices all took their toll. It's kind of sad that, the persons who's responsibility to manage and oversee the company's good over all health, were not doing what was best for Keystone, it's investors and the company workforce.

As for George M. Franklin, who's Adams and Perry #31 watch is on display at our museum, he must surly have made amends. Franklin would again be a major player at Hamilton rising to the presidency, of Hamilton from 1896-1899. That will have to be someone else's story..............

George and burt
 

Louis Christina

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I have tried to see if I am duplicating a number but it appears no. 2088 isn't mentioned here, it's a nickel damascened example that appears to have used the three patents, I found it or it found me as the dealer seated behind me at the National in Milwaukee last year, sold it to me.
 

gmeyer4

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Louis, can you post pictures for us to see? So far anyway everything seen above numbers 1200 have been the updated Lancaster design. Great to find a nickel version and numbers in the 2000 are correct for nickel.
 

Louis Christina

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At the moment it's being repaired, all I have are some crude pictures of it in a state of partial disassembly, once it is returned I'll be glad to post a couple of pictures.
 

gmeyer4

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Those photos might be the best photos to look at Louis. I bet she will look pretty once you get it all cleaned up.
 

gmeyer4

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These are even more rare than the nickel A&Ps. There are 5 now in the data base and two are marked Keystone Watch Co.
 
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gmeyer4

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1 Marked Adams & Perry
31 - 21 jewel George Franklin - Original design
34 - 21 jewel J Fred. Sener - Original design
1868 (possibly intended to be a date rather than a serial number??...or maybe not) has a monogram between "18" and "68" that I can't make out (see Ehrhardt 1980 price indicator page 92). Nickel plates.



1201(?) (Townsend line drawing)

1269 (from an old adv. block cut)
1353-Gilt
1357-"
1363-"
1366-"
1387-"
1391-"
1408-"
1415-Nickel & Gilt (ex Townsend)
1426-Gilt
1448-"
1452-"
1474-"
1497-"
1530-Nickel & Gilt (see Sauer's Hamilton book)
1550-Gilt
1568(?)-Nickel---movement is signed only "H. G. Turner" and there is no serial number visible on the train plate. On pillar plate underneath the dial (which was missing) is a "1" over "568". This one passed through the well known auction site earlier this year.
1585-Gilt
1593-"
1638-"
1652-"
1681-"
1687-"
1747-"
1762-"
1774-"
1795-"
2005-Nickel
2009-"
2023-"
2032-"
2041-"
2042-"
2045-"
2047-"
2063-"
2065-"
2077-"
2088
2488-? (ad cut showing a mvt marked "ACME Stand'd Am'n Watch Co. Pittsburgh"

36024--20j Lancaster, Pa.
36030
36034--"
36068
36070
36122--20j Keystone

316106--20j Keystone
316172--20j Keystone
 
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gmeyer4

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I have tried to see if I am duplicating a number but it appears no. 2088 isn't mentioned here, it's a nickel damascened example that appears to have used the three patents, I found it or it found me as the dealer seated behind me at the National in Milwaukee last year, sold it to me.
Louis, One thing to look for is the design of the clip. The later models were simplified. Look closely at the details in Figure #2 on the Perry patent at the design of the spring and click.
attachment.jpg
 
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Louis Christina

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Thank you, George. I can't say that I looked at the click that closely, will do so and post my findings soon.
 

Jim Haney

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Last month I had the occasion to be speaking with Tom Engle and was giving him an update on our recent finding that Adams and Perry did produce, previously unknown, movements which included all 3 of Perry's original patents. These we clearly felt were the earliest produced models, in part, and certainly differed enough, from the later movements, to be given a separate designation in his "Complete Price Guide To Watches". He agreed.

Tom, then said, he was aware of the time we spent in researching the company, and asked if we would be interested in rewriting the introduction history for the Adams and Perry Company. We both agreed that the current information included in the Guide,was lacking, and certainly needed an update.

Working with the publisher, Tinderbox Press, we completely rewrote the A&P interduction story, a bit brief, but complete enough within the space available provided to us.
We also included the first and second model designations and suggested some changes to the "star" ratings for their watches. When Tom saw the draft I think he was very pleased. So we suggested why not do the Lancaster named companies and Keystone? After all they were just a continuation of the same original company. Having completed these, we think now gives a reader a more fluid and easier to understand story of the happenings, in Lancaster watchmaking, during the time period that these companies were in operation.

AS there is so much knowledge on this board in other areas, and many new and recent findings in collecting, we encourage others to do the same.

George and burt
Burt & George,

I just finished reading the NEW introduction on the Adams & Perry Watch Co. in the 2015 price guide and wanted to say a big thank you for doing the research on this and making this information available to everyone.

It is also encouraging that changes can be made to the "Price Guide". Most of us believed changes just fell on deft ears, but with the proper contacts we see that changes can be accomplished.

Again, thanks for your work on this and the great information you have made available to everyone.
 

burt

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Jim,

Well thank you for thanking us! We also did the introductions for the Lancaster and Keystone Watch Companies.

We consider this a half success as we couldn't get the additional revisions we recommended, to their star ratings, or their acceptance of a separate category for the first model watch. If you compare the A&P models to some other more "popular watch brands" it seems the star system for rarity does need an upgrade.

One other small point the editor missed was the fact the "first model" A&P watch is a 21 jewel and not 20 as we previously thought. We sent in a revision and I guess it wasn't caught? In any event we tried and will continue to lobby for those changes not made. I would be remiss if I didn't say that Tom was completely on board, with all of our recommendations and we very much thank him for his attitude that the best and most up to date information should be in the guide.
 
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Greg Frauenhoff

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Just wondering if anyone has been keeping track of which of these mvts are double roller and which are single roller.
 

burt

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Greg,

It's our understanding that these (Adams and Perry designed) were the first watch in America with a double roller and both ( 1st and 2nd) of the models were fitted with it.

George and I have been working on a project that we hope will become a part II Bulletin article.
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Burt,

The reason I ask is because a period price lists notes a 20j mvt with double roller and a cheaper 20j mvt that is similarly described but for which double roller is not mentioned (which suggests that the latter has a single roller).

Greg
 

burt

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Greg,

And that is a good question! If we are talking about the same movement (1884 price list) and we probably are, We don't know. These movements are not the Perry designed models. That movement and I'll quote from our article:

The Lancaster Watch Company (2)

(circa. 1881) "At this point the firm made an attempt to market a high grade 20-jewel watch, the Lancaster, Pa. While reusing the original name, perhaps a tribute to the original Perry designed movement but this time in a 18 size model with cap-jeweled escapement and gold settings, production was limited to less than a few hundred." These are truly rare and probably didn't sell well? I can add that they were Moseley designed and were to be a premium watch at a lesser price.

According to our data base only a few are recorded ( 36XXX range) and neither George or I have examined one to check what type roller they used. The data base does not indicate what type roller was used on any of the watches. I think Tom McIntyre owned one of these and perhaps he may have taken his apart and examined the roller? Honestly I thought you were asking about the earlier production model but should have realized you already knew that answer. We can always expect a challenging question from you and that's good because it keeps us on our toes. Thanks for your continued interest in the companies and we are always anxious to discus matters brought forth from the board.

George and burt
 
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gmeyer4

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Looks like I hit the wrong button!

The 20 jewel Lancaster watches with serial numbers in the 36000 range are, from the examples we have seen, nickel with GJS with a double roller. There are only a few of these recorded so they are quiet scarce. I'll take a quick look at all of the grades to see which ones are double/single roller designs. Mine was finished at a aleter date and is marked Keystone Watch Co on both the dial and movement.
 

gmeyer4

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I forgot I had this one until Burt brought up the subject. It was one of those buy it now deals on ebay a couple of years ago.


Looks like I hit the wrong button!

The 20 jewel Lancaster watches with serial numbers in the 36000 range are, from the examples we have seen, nickel with GJS with a double roller. There are only a few of these recorded so they are quiet scarce. I'll take a quick look at all of the grades to see which ones are double/single roller designs. Mine was finished at a aleter date and is marked Keystone Watch Co on both the dial and movement.
 

burt

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This isn't going to be a simple explanation to the question asked by Greg but a explanation never the less. Again the simple answer is we don't know if the specific 18 size marked "Lancaster" watch, designed by Moseley, and marketed in the 1884 Lancaster Watch Company catalog has a double roller or not. These plates were probably done in the 1880-1881 time frame and were numbered then. They fit into a plausible sequence of numbers to conclude that statement. It was a limited run model which we believe was about 200. We have never examined that very specific very rare watch movement and there are only three numbered in the data base. I agree in that Lancaster catalog publication, it doesn't list that movement having a double roller. Please consider there could be several reasons, other than that fact, which could reduce the cost. The first being the over all finish of the movement. As I said we don't have that specific model watch to look at.

What George owns, and has examined carefully, is that same model movement with the early 36XXX number which is equally rare but finished later by Keystone. It's the same 20 jewel,18 size as the earlier one sold by Lancaster. It's marked both on the dial (could be changed) and movement but probably a original combination. This specific movement does have the double roller feature but had to be completed after the company name change to Keystone in November of 1886. The over all finish of the watch is plain and certainly not anywhere to the standard of the Perry designed "Lancaster" early watches. If we used this one example, as factual proof, it would certainly account for the lesser price for the early movements in the catalog. We are not but consider Hamilton, which we know much more about, and how they graded jewels, hairsprings and finished parts to use in various price grades of movements.This movement also has the Bitner patented regulator which helps to later date the finishing. I think this also proves out the statement about the model being a slow seller as nearly six years after making the (200) plates they still had movements to finish and sell.

So in my opinion you can draw any conclusion you wish to make. Mine would be it had a double roller and for all the reasons as stated above.
 

burt

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For those who were watching or interested in the ebay auction on the "Lancaster" watch 1018, the auction just ended. Some commented on the watch while the auction was active and I think our moderator correctly removed the thread.

In our learned opinion what the watch is and represents, is a historical and very important piece of the Adams and Perry puzzle. So far as we know it is the only known specimen, that has surfaced, of a completed Adams and Perry first model watch that was made for the open market. (Adams and Perry #1 was never up for public sale) This watch is and was completed as a nickel movement of 21 jewels and contains all three of Perry's original patents. For those familiar with the recent discovery of the Franklin and Sener watches keep in mind they are first models but were modified by Keystone in the later 1880's and differ with several major components than this watch. (regulator, jewel settings etc.) This watch also is verification of two important "clues" in Charles Crossman's writings on the subject.

With both John C. Adams and Edwin H. Perry gone from the company and the factory closed it was re-opened in August of 1877 as the Lancaster Watch Company (1). Crossman wrote that on September 1,1877 work began. During this time, with Todd in charge, some of the old ADAMS AND PERRY MOVEMENTS WERE FINISHED. He further wrote that Only one person was reported working on the movements. How many of these were completed is not known. Perhaps only a handful as this is the first movement to surface?

Until this movement surfaced we never have had an example that confirmed or verified that any of the "early first model Perry designed watches" were actually finished. All other known specimens were those modified by Charles Moseley and are of the second model and differ in many ways from these Perry designed movements.

We also believe that this watch is complete and unchanged from how it was assembled in 1877-1878 and represents the "ORGINAL CONFIGURATION" of what these watches were designed to look like when first designed and sold. This should confirm the correct dial and hands which were used on the earlier watches.

George and burt
 
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Tom McIntyre

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Is this example 21 jewels or 20 jewels. The 2nd model Adams & Perry watches I have owned were all 20 jewels.

Repeating my question in the other thread... Do you think it was ever cased?
 

burt

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Tom,

We will have to verify on this watch to be certain but it appears that the original first models as designed by Perry are 21 jewel. Both #31 and #34 are. Keep in mind the poor economy at the time Moseley took over operations from Todd. His first priority was to design lesser cost movements that they could actually sell. He then redesigned the Perry model to be less expensive to manufacture and more robust and practical to build. The original movements were to be a nickel model only and only later in production was the gilt finish ( remember the second model used different plates) introduced again to reduce cost. These were all relatively short term "fixes" until the existing old inventory of parts was exhausted and newer models introduced.

We do believe that this watch was sold and cased for use.
 

gmeyer4

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Once we get this watch in hand we will know more. It certainly looks to be as Burt described it, an A&P original movement finished by the Lancaster Watch Company. I am leaning towards this watch was cased because the chances of a NOS watch from 1877 or 1878 is likely about a million to one and some of the screws appear to have had a screwdriver in them. Either way, it is a great addition to the Lancaster collection.
 

burt

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Well George and I thought we should give the board a preliminary report, to avid unnecessary speculation on Adams and Perry watch 1018. The watch is exactly what we suspected it to be, a first model Perry designed movement no doubt from the original set of plates produced. The internal serial number, marked in several areas is 18. After producing A&P #1, it appears the company decided to use a numbering system starting with 1XXX. This watch contains 21 jewels, as the other early models and is a double roller with stop works as expected. The second model 20 jewel movements are not jeweled on the center wheel arbor at the front plate.George reports the workmanship to be first rate and all parts are highly finished and the fit excellent. Another interesting find was that the watch has it's original dust band and that it's attached with 2 screws which are countersunk into the band and not just forced on.

We believe these early first model movements were completed by the fist Lancaster Watch Company Sept 1877-Sept 1878 and the Lancaster, Pennsylvania, Watch Company Ltd., Oct 1878-April 1879. These few movements were probably the only watches finished by the companies. Crossman reported that Moseley had designed several less expensive movements for production but the company ran out of money and they were not yet completed. Given that information no other Lancaster Watch Company watches can be dated prior to May 1879. We feel a total production of these first models was probably less than 30 (not counting the presentation pieces finished by Keystone) before the movement was modified into the second version by Moseley.

George has promised pictures as soon as the watch is back together.
 

gmeyer4

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It is great to have a few examples of the first model A&P watches. It helps greatly with filling in and confirm information on the A&P watch Company. Despite earlier debates, Crossman was fairly accurate in his reporting. He reported the company had 800 movements that were in process. And, we can reasonably confirm these numbers through examples. He claimed they finished number one and that number one was rushed ahead of the rest of the movements. Some of the other movements appeared to be far enough along to be completed as Model 1 movements incorporating the Perry Patents. The other parts became Model 2 movements, cost reduced likely by either Todd or Moseley, to be cheaper to manufacture.

There is a group of model 1 watches, serial numbers #1, #18, 31 and 34. Then there are Model 2 serial numbers run from 1201 to 1795 in gilt and 2005 to 2096 in nickel. This would account for the 800 movements that Crossman wrote about. 20 or 30 ?? of the model 1 finished, 600 of the model 2 in gilt and 100 of the model 2 in nickel.

A&P Serial Number Chart.jpg

Serial number 18, model 1, finished by the Lancaster Watch Company as number 1018. Internal numbers are #18.
A&P model 1 (1).jpg

Serial number 34, Model 1, Finished later by the Keystone Watch Company as a presentation watch
A&P model 1 presentaion watch (1).jpg

Model 2, Gilt example
A&P model 2 gilt (1).jpg

Model 2 Nickel example
A&P Model 2 nickel (1).jpg

A&P Serial Number Chart.jpg A&P model 1 (1).jpg A&P model 1 presentaion watch (1).jpg A&P model 2 gilt (1).jpg A&P Model 2 nickel (1).jpg
 
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Marty101

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Just beautiful George! Fills me with envy and desire for what I don't have. Thank you for that;my friend-I so rarely have that emotion these days.:excited:
 

Greg Frauenhoff

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Neat. Thanks for the pics, etc.

Through the efforts by you and Burt, together with the data collected in this thread on mvts, the collecting community probably knows more about early A&P/Lancaster production, etc., than ever.
 

Paul Regan

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Superb reporting George and wonderful to see #18. It is refreshing to see people like you and Burt showing the dedication to the hobby we all ascribe to.
Paul
 

Jim Haney

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George,
Thank you for being motivated enough to pursue this and do the work & research to investigate Crossman's writings.

This is a substantial piece of research and you have proved it to the watch community.

It was a puzzle that you put the pieces together and the end result is a complete picture. This was a big mystery to the watch world for over a 100 years and now we have some facts that we can resource for comparison.


Also, thank you for sharing this information.This is what it is all about.
 

gmeyer4

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There are a few other interesting A&Ps out there. One known two tone and possibly another presentation watch similar to #34. The key point is A&P had at least material for 800 watches. #1 was finished by A&P along with probably 20 or 30 as work in process. These 20 or 30 were finished by later Lancaster companies, first as a potential revenue source (1018) and later as presentation watches, (#34).

These original Perry watches were way to expensive to build compared to the competition at the time. Having all those parts in house it only makes sense that they would try to use these parts to make watches for sale and the redesigned model #2s are a bit simpler - cheaper to build. This gave the later "Lancaster" companies a 20 jewel for their catalog while they rushed to get designed and built some 15j, 11j and 7j models to complete the product line.

Thanks for all the good comments, Burt is the hunting dog on all the research. When he gets on a scent... off he goes :)

What amazes me is that this thread has over 27,000 views. A&P collectors are few and far between. Who is looking at this thread:???:?
 
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Fred Hansen

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Thanks George! Really enjoy seeing the excellent pics of these 4 variants posted here together. 18 and 34 have come out looking great and glad they found a good home.
 

burt

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It's very gratifying to see members of this board, praise and recognize George's commitment and accomplishment, of not only assembling the most complete collection of the Adams and Perry movement types but to his posting them here and making them available for viewing to the members of the collecting community. I assure you this was no easy or inexpensive ask to accomplish. I think this is the first time all four types have been posted together, for the public to view and is in keeping with the commitment of sharing everything Adams and Perry learned to date.

I also want to add my personal thanks for his unselfish sharing of information and these photos, which continues and sustains the typical attitude of our core members. I feel privileged to say so.

burt
 
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gmeyer4

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If I were a betting man I would bet there are a quite a few more GEMs out there hiding in collections and old jewelers boxes and we aren't done learning yet. These are just examples that have come to light recently and added significantly to what we knew.
 

Marty101

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That's the kind of attitude I like to hear! You've shared all with us George,and now to top it off you encourage others to follow your passion. I salute you. :)
 

richart

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Re: Full name of watchmaker E. H. Perry

In a Google search, I found a couple of references to Edwin Perry associated with the Adams & Perry Watch Co 1874-76 (precursor to Hamilton) and to Edwin H. Perry associated with the Auburndale Watch Co.
 

richart

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Re: Full name of watchmaker E. H. Perry

It may have been Edwin Hathaway Perry. Check this link at the Lancaster County Historical Society.

Main author:Meyer, George.
Title:Our story of the Adams & Perry Watch Company and the early watch companies of Lancaster, Pa. / by George Meyer and Burt Cifrulak.
Description:Book227-237.
In:Journal of the National Association of Watch & Clock Collectors vol 55/3, no. 402, May-June 2013.
Subject(s):perry, Edwin Hathaway.Adams, John C.Bitner, Charles Augustus.Bitner, Abraham.Zahn, Edward J.Best, John.Todd, William N.Moseley, Charles S.Adams & Perry Watch Company (Lancaster, Pa.) History.Lancaster Watch Company (Lancaster, Pa.)Keystone Standard Watch Company History.Clocks and watches.
Institution:Lancaster County Historical SocietyCollection:Shelved At LCHSLCCall Number:681.1 M612Number of Items:1Status:Checked In
 
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PatH

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Re: Full name of watchmaker E. H. Perry

Dan,

If you do a patent search for Edwin H. Perry, the results include the following two for Edwin Hathaway Perry of Boston: USD4799 April 11, 1871 for a "new and desirable design for the top plate of a watch movement" and patent #115351 May 30, 1871 for an improvement in stem winding watches. Would this be the correct E.H. Perry? The location and dates match those on the watch movement posted.

Pat
 

pmwas

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Re: Full name of watchmaker E. H. Perry

Looks like the answer here. The dates match, so it has to be this one. And yes, the plates' design is most desirable ;)
 

gmeyer4

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Re: Full name of watchmaker E. H. Perry

In a Google search, I found a couple of references to Edwin Perry associated with the Adams & Perry Watch Co 1874-76 (precursor to Hamilton) and to Edwin H. Perry associated with the Auburndale Watch Co.
After leaving A&P Perry for a while was in the silver business in Lancaster prior to moving to Auburndale. Watch Co. His middle name Hathaway was his mothers family name. Check out the Bulletin article volume 403. Much more history on Perry in the article.
 

gmeyer4

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Adams & Perry watches

Well, after a very long time discussing this watch we finally have definitive proof of Crossman's claim that A&P finished the first watch.


A&P #1 small.png

Picture from Bonham's. For the whole story see Bulletin #403.
 
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burt

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If I were a betting man I would bet there are a quite a few more GEMs out there hiding in collections and old jewelers boxes and we aren't done learning yet. These are just examples that have come to light recently and added significantly to what we knew.
George, did you use a "crystal ball" for this statement? You certainly hit the nail on the head with this one. For those interested Danny Weiss started a thread "Finding Adams and Perry Co.#1" (7-01-13) that details the first surfacing and sale of this important piece of Lancaster watchmaking history. Now that we have an actual picture of this treasure it's apparent Tom Engle's memory and description of the watch was spot on after so many years have past.
 
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4thdimension

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So, the Bonham's auction has ended. Other than ser#1 how many A&P watches are new to the tally? -Cort
 

burt

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So, the Bonham's auction has ended. Other than ser#1 how many A&P watches are new to the tally? -Cort
I don't know if I got them all but it looks like: gilt movements 1524,1666 (singularly unique signed I.J. Rudolph),1748,1751,1753 and nickel movements 2030,2031 and 2097.

No matter how you look at it these movements remain very rare and each one adds to the story of Adams and Perry and the early Lancaster companies.
 
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Fred Hansen

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I don't know if I got them all but it looks like: gilt movements 1524,1666 (singularly unique signed I.J. Rudolph),1748,1751,1753 and nickel movements 2030,2031 and 2097.


Serial 1940 is signed with the same Rudolph marking on the movement, I believe its C.F. Rudolph and this watch is marked with the name on the gold case also. It sold in last year's December Bonhams auction.

Serial 1751 is combination nickel and gilt finish, similar to two others in the list earlier in this thread.

 

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