ABV deposé - who is the maker?

[zedric]

I have just bought a small carriage clock (9.4cm high) with repeat on a bell, the movement marked ABV deposé in an oval on the back plate - Deposé means registered, and I assume that the ABV is the maker's initials or trade mark, but I cannot find ABV in any of the standard references... Does anyone have any hints as to who this maker might be?

Will post images once I have the clock (may be a couple of weeks)

 

[zedric]

OK, the clock has arrived, but I am still none the wiser as to the maker (the retailer was the well known jeweller Howell James and Co). Photos below show the clock (next to a stapler to indicate size) and the backplate of the movement, with the ABV trademark in an oval..

While very much a miniature, the clock is a high quality item, with a repeat mechanism, unusual for a clock of this size (9cm with the handle fully extended)

Any ideas as to how I could track down the maker would be gratefully accepted!

Thanks in advance...

 

[JTD]

ABV may well be the 'finisseur', in which case it may not be possible to identify the maker (who would likely be several people anyway). But I have a feeling this mark has come up before and someone else may know more.

JTD

 

[jmclaugh]

A pretty little carriage clock, you may have already found it but here is a similar one below, same retailer.

Bearnes Hampton & Littlewood (Horological Auctions): A French Miniature Carriage Clock

 

[JTD]

Same back stamp (ABV) too.

JTD

 

[zedric]

Thanks guys. There is also one with the ABV mark listed in Roberts book, but no hint who ABV is..

 

[zedric]

The Roberts one is Figure 7.5 - again a timepiece with repeat.

 

[zedric]

OK, so I've had a a chance to have a deeper look today, and found why the repeat had jammed (a pin used as a stop for the hammer had been bent back, and was jamming one of the wheels of the repeat train). I also found the mark of the maker for the blanc that was used for this clock

You can just make it out in the photo - a B in a circle, stamped on the back of the front plate, together with the numbers 138 - the B is generally taken to be the trademark for Brunelot, and the number is presumably the sequence number for this movement. The other Brunelot clocks I have had have been good quality, but not exceptional, and all those I have seen in person have been full size (see the photos of the corniche clock I used to own), so I was a little surprised to see this complex miniature with the Brunelot mark on it... Although looking on the web, there are some very nice clocks by Brunelot, both full size and miniature.

Anyone care to speculate as to a relationship between the Brunelot trade mark on the front plate and the ABV depose mark on the back plate? I haven't checked, but Brunelot's name was Jules, so it doesn't seem to be related to his initials..

Also, the bell was missing when I bought this. Looking at the bell stand, the bell was presumably a press fit (there is no thread), and the hands are set by a key passing through the centre of the bell (which must have been done to save space). I doubt I'll ever be able to replace this, which is a shame..

Current clock



Other Brunelot Clock

 

[zedric]

I found my notes on Brunelot from when I owned the other clock. For anyone interested:

13th September 1865, granted a patent for a pendulum suspension. Address listed as Ménilmontant 24
Tardy is quoted as listing Brunelot as 1870, Rue du Temple
10th Feb 1875, the firm of Brunelot and Cayar (clockmakers) was dissolved – their address was 10 Rue Oberkampf, Paris. Brunelot stays on at this address
Bronze medal in 1876 (noted in revue chronometrique)
Allix notes that Brunelot showed carriage clocks at Paris Expositions in 1878, where he received an honourable mention. Also displayed carriage clocks in 1889 Expo
1885 (14th January) A second patent granted (or simply applied for?) for a type of clock showing simultaneously divisions of the day in 12 and 24 hours
1886 Brunelot joined the society d’horlogerie, introduced by Rodanet. It seems that they were having a membership drive, as there were a lot of new members around this time, introduced by Rodanet and Garnier
Trade mark seems to be different in carriage clocks (B in circle) compared to general clocks (where JB in an oval seems to be used)

 

[jmclaugh]

I also found the mark of the maker for the blanc that was used for this clock

You can just make it out in the photo - a B in a circle, stamped on the back of the front plate, together with the numbers 138 - the B is generally taken to be the trademark for Brunelot, and the number is presumably the sequence number for this movement.
Anyone care to speculate as to a relationship between the Brunelot trade mark on the front plate and the ABV depose mark on the back plate? I haven't checked, but Brunelot's name was Jules, so it doesn't seem to be related to his initials..

Also, the bell was missing when I bought this. Looking at the bell stand, the bell was presumably a press fit (there is no thread), and the hands are set by a key passing through the centre of the bell (which must have been done to save space). I doubt I'll ever be able to replace this, which is a shame..

Interesting it has a B in a circle and ABV in an oval as that indicates the marks are for different firms and the obvious thought is the former is the supplier of the blanc roulant and the latter is the finisher. Baveux in Saint-Nicolas is known to have supplied blancs so maybe the B is his mark.

A shame the bell is missing and I did wonder how it was fitted, good luck with finding a replacement.

 

[zedric]

Interesting it has a B in a circle and ABV in an oval as that indicates the marks are for different firms and the obvious thought is the former is the supplier of the blanc roulant and the latter is the finisher. Baveux in Saint-Nicolas is known to have supplied blancs so maybe the B is his mark.

A shame the bell is missing and I did wonder how it was fitted, good luck with finding a replacement.

In his book, Allix suggests that the B in a circle mark could be that of Brunelot, although this was not certain (see details from my research into Brunelot in post #9 above). I don't know if anyone has confirmed this link for certain in the intervening years, but auction houses and antiques shops generally attribute clocks with the B in a circle mark as being by Bruneot.

As you say though, that leaves open the question of what ABV means - was this another trademark used by Brunelot (it seems he may have also used JB in a circle), or does it relate to a different firm altogether, the person who finished the clocks and sold them on to the retailer? At present I have found very few clocks with the ABV mark, and was hoping that someone might have a suggestions for who this could be.

Re the bell, if I am ever to get this clock to strike again, I am probably going to have to make my own luck by adapting another bell to fit. The first thing would be to find a bell of suitable dimensions, and while clockmakers in the UK may work on a lot of carriage clocks and have some spares, those here in Aus have far fewer to choose from. I suspect it will be a long journey.

 

[jmclaugh]

I think it is safe to assume auction houses etc are using the reference from Allix re attributing the B in a circle to Brunelot. It may well be but Allix says that is suggested but with no evidence though of course that may have changed as his book was published a long time ago. I've no information on if Brunelot supplied blanc roulants to others hence my suggestion of Baveux who according to Allix did, for example to Jacot. As ever it is a pity there seems to be so little information on very many French clockmakers.

Re the bell have you tried Leigh Extence? He may also be worth consulting re the marks on this clock.

 

[Ralph]

I picked up a large elaborated Anglaise cased carriage clock earlier this year. It has the Circle B mark on the backplate. The clock is nice quality, over glitzy, silver Corinthian capitals, bases and handle, center sweep second hand, hour repeat and a pivoted detent chronometer platform, but alas, the escape wheel is missing.

Ralph

 

[zedric]

Just a quick follow up - I found from the June issue of "Carriage Way" - the magazine of chapter #195 - that a miniature clock with B in a circle at the back of the frontplate, and the mark "AB depose" on the backplate was sold at RO Schmidt's auction in May this year - lot number 665.

I wonder if this was a poor stamping, or misreading, of ABV depose, or an earlier (or later) iteration of the trademark? Unfortunately the photos on the catalogue are not clear enough to tell..

 

[zedric]

I think it is safe to assume auction houses etc are using the reference from Allix re attributing the B in a circle to Brunelot. It may well be but Allix says that is suggested but with no evidence though of course that may have changed as his book was published a long time ago. I've no information on if Brunelot supplied blanc roulants to others hence my suggestion of Baveux who according to Allix did, for example to Jacot. As ever it is a pity there seems to be so little information on very many French clockmakers.

Re the bell have you tried Leigh Extence? He may also be worth consulting re the marks on this clock.

Hi - thanks for the thought - I will follow up with Leigh

 

[Leigh Extence]

Thanks Phil,
I got your email this morning, and will reply later. But as I followed your link to this thread and I'm now here I thought I'd respond.
I have been following a trail of marks following my research into Jacot and Drocourt with some very interesting results. I haven't published these findings as yet as I'm still putting it all together.
But I have a fair few Jacot clocks from the early 1880's that have a certain arrow style and layout to the movement, different to the Jacot norm, made during a short time when they were being supplied with carriage clock movements by both Delepine and Baveux, but with no other markings. Then, I have the identical arrow mark and movement layout on other clocks but which have the Pons trademark on, which at this point was the business Delepine-Barrois (previously Delepine-Canchy) who took over the Pons workshops and name. So we know that these movements, both supplied to Jacot and others, are Delepine examples made in Saint-Nicolas-d'Aliermont. What is interesting is that many of these Pons-Delepine movements also have the B in a circle stamped on them, who I can't see being Brunelot; that was just a shot in the dark from Charles Allix. What is interesting is that we know Alfred Baveux supplied Jacot, as did Delepine, and I now believe the two workshops, which were only 20 yards away from each other, collaborated on some clocks, hence the rarely seen mark A.B. & D. This is made even more intriguing as Delepine was Alfred Baveux's brother-in-law. Although I've still to finalise the research, and tie it all together, I have a fair idea that the B in a circle may possibly be Baveux. A number of these movements also have the AB depose mark on them.
Apologies, rushing out so that explanation may've been a little hurried and need re-reading to disassemble!

 

[zedric]

Thanks Leigh - that’s great information

 

[Leigh Extence]

I've kept meaning to post this, but other things seem to take over!
I have a feeling that the B in a circle attribution to Brunelot has something to do with the list of horlogers in the 1879 Paris Almanach which shows all the awards won in a column to the left of each name, except with Brunelot it shows a further award in the actual details of the maker, being a bronze medal awarded from the Chambre Syndicale in 1876. The image probably explains it better, but I reckon this is where the idea that a B in a circle is Jules Brunelot, whereas I think not.

 

[matthiasi]

So, I have just had the privilege of doing a repair & overhaul / restoration on this wonderful carriage clock.

It's an hour repeater, strike / half hour with alarm. There is a case (unmerked) in very good condition as well. Always a big bonus.

In my opinion, the workmanship is on par with the "lesser" Jacot carriage clocks. It has the "B" in the circle trademark on the rear plate, as well as a couple of other markings "F", a "34", an inverted "Y" and the S/N on the inside bottom of the front plate. The last digit of the S/N is stamped on almost all of the wheels.

Unfortunately, it's been mangled and maltreated a bit over the years by previous repairmen.
A number of screws etc. have been extremely mangled.

There are about a dozen "scatches", initials with or w/o dates etc. on the base.
The earliest one I can make out is 1893. I believe this clock to be from around 1880 +/-.

I'm posting a few pictures of this one, maybe it will help with identification. Still not sure if it's a Brunelot or Baveux. Hoping that Leigh can chime in again and maybe update us on his findings. Most of the similar ones I've seen in the auction catalogs attribute the "B" in circle to Brunelot, albeit, a number of them mention "as per" Allix...

 

[matthiasi]

Should have mentioned- the case is the same as the one that Zedric posted.

 

[zedric]

That's a great looking clock! Its great to see the case in such good condition, and the engraving is very well done, even on the handle, which is not common

 

[Leigh Extence]

I have seen quite a few clocks with this identical arrow and backplate layout, most of which are a little earlier and have the Pons roundel stamp on them which was of course used by Charles Boromee Delepine when in partnership with Charles Canchy. He then continued to use this arrow style after Canchy’s death in 1857, and so it can be fairly assumed that this movement, and probably the whole clock, came from the Delepine workshop. Interestingly, the business became Delepine-Barrois in circa 1889, but this was not Charles Boromee Delepine and another business partner, nor his son the famous chronometer maker Etienne Emile. Delepine-Barrois was a relative of theirs, Ludovic Delepine and his Parisian born wife Marie Barrois whose step-father was a member of the well-known Sauteur family of carriage clock makers. They were the ones that moved into the big house that is often seen in images, and shown in Allix and Bonnert, and which was sold to Armand Couaillet to become the workshops of Couaillet freres.
And so it is safe to say that this movement was probably made in Charles Delepine’s Saint Nicolas d’Aliermont workshops when in business alone, with his workshop situated in the lower part of Saint Nicolas, Bout d’Aval, within yards of a number of other well-known makers such as his next-door neighbour Auguste Lechevallier, directeur of the Drocourt business, chronometer maker Dumas across the road and Jean Holingue adjacent who was at this time working with Drocourt, the latter having bought he and his brother out some years previously.

 

[Leigh Extence]

Although this thread is a few years old, I thought it worth resurrecting as I've just bought a miniature timepiece carriage clock with push hour repeat that should be added to this discussion.
It is stamped ABV Deposé on the backplate and has a number of Baveux features, including the arrow setting design as seen on a few others around this serial number, 4457, although other features such as the engraved Slow/Fast to the index aren't typical of Baveux.
As with others seen marked ABV, it has a miniature timepiece movement with push quarter-repeat.

 

[Leigh Extence]

Should read 'push hour repeat' not 'quarter repeat'.

 

[zedric]

That is a beautiful little clock. And I love the gong shaped like a paper clip!

 

[Leigh Extence]

The gong is brilliant... obviously a well thought out style to fit the clock.

 

[Leigh Extence]

Some updated images of my miniature ABV depose carriage clock.
The hands have since been readjusted as the hour hand had slipped back!