Abraham Lincoln's Waltham Watch

Discussion in 'American Pocket Watches' started by Robert McCabe, Jan 16, 2016.

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  1. PapaLouies

    PapaLouies Registered User
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    Hi Bob,

    Thought I would weigh in on the silver case of your 1859 model. I think it's been stated that there are no production records about AM WATCH CO WALTHAM MASS silver watch cases. I have never seen a case signed as yours with a stamped eagle. It's possible that your case could be one of the first 130 silver cases made for the P.S. Bartlett 1859 model by the American Watch Co.

    Regards,

    PL
     
  2. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    PL, Tom hit the nail on the head!! I shall accept an 11J PSB, 61 or 62 in silver or gold
    hunter case.

    Keith
     
  3. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    Hi Papa, Thank you.. admittedly a novice, I didn't know that! But it certainly made sense when I looked back and saw it is a two digit serial! Thank you for a GREAT piece of information!
     
  4. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    Hi Keith, Are you OK with an open face case for both 1861 and 1862 as I go forward in my search for you?
     
  5. Tom McIntyre

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    I saw an 1862 with some alteration sell at a remarkably low price two weeks ago. However, these 20 size watches are pretty hard to find. There are no P.S.B in 20 size but the AT&Co are available from time to time and there are also some Am'n grade examples. A correct American Watch Co. grade 1862 will be very expensive regardless of the case material.
     
  6. Keith R...

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    ^^Bob, yes for me and for, Tom, Amen................ain't nothing cheap anymore. Keith
     
  7. Robert McCabe

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    Newly cased "1863" Waltham "Wm. Ellery" first in the series from which Abraham Lincoln's came. Serial # 67581 attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     

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  8. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    #108 Robert McCabe, Jan 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
    *see next post*
     
  9. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    #109 Robert McCabe, Jan 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2017
    Correction.....

    Can anyone tell me which would be the correct dial for a Waltham model 1859 made April "1861" P.S. Bartlett model. attachment.jpg attachment.png
     

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  10. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    Can anyone with a knowledge of "Waltham" watches, and their watch cases, tell approximately when they started using their initials for watch cases, instead of the full name? Such as "A.W. Co"....
     
  11. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    Can anyone tell me if this April "1861" model 1859 Waltham "P.S. Bartlett" would be representative of a truly original watch from this series/period? attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg
     

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  12. Clint Geller

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    The immediate predecessor of the American Watch Company, Appleton, Tracy & Company, produced cases marked "A.T. & Co.," and AT&Co's predecessor, the Boston Watch Company, made cases marked "B.W. Co." And I seem to recall seeing some Waltham movements made just after the name change to AWCo in gold cases marked "A. W. Co.", though I don't remember seeing a lot of silver cases so marked, if any. So the AWCo may have been making "A.W.Co." - marked gold cases pretty much from day one.

    - - - Updated - - -

    I'd say it is, Robert.
     
  13. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    In response to those who have interest in the factual documentation, and description of Lincoln's Waltham watch, I want to offer the following:

    1) Carl Sandburg's book, "Lincoln, the War Years, Volume 3, page 434. There is a description of the watch and an actual photograph.

    2) Oliver R. Barret, Lincoln Collector. Catalogue of auction by "Parke-Bernet Galleries, dated February 19th & 20th, 1952. Page #182, item #483. Description of watch, Affidavits of Dennis F. Hanks, to whom Lincoln originally gave the watch, and photographs of the watch and accompanying chain.

    3) Harvard University, analysis of the Waltham company done by "Charles W. Moore" and published in 1945. Description and illustration of watch page # 61.

    4) Afidavit of "Dennis F. Hanks", Lincoln's Cousin to whom the watch was given personally in "1864." Filed on May 14th, 1891 and Filed in the Edgar County, Illinois, office of the County Clerk. Hanks resided in Paris, Illinois at this time.
     
  14. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    There is more than one "Lincoln's watch," of course. At the Civil War watch exhibit I will be curating at the NAWCC HQ Museum in 2019, we have some hope of having not one, but two of them!

    By the way, since the name Hanks was brought up, it may be of interest to some that the actor, Tom Hanks, is related to Nancy Hanks Lincoln, Abraham's mother.
     
  15. Omexa

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    Hi, I have an 1859 Model Waltham Pocket Watch in pieces; I am just sorting out my American Stuff. Photos will be shown soon. Regards Ray 307769.png
     
  16. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    #116 Omexa, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
    Hi, here are the photos. I will need a little help on this one there are some parts missing? It looks like it is in the original Case; there are no extra Screw Marks and the Winder hole lines up with where the Winder would be. I am not sure about the Dial is it Original? The Case is bit rough around the edges and tarnished but it is pretty old. The movement has a Good Balance assembly. I made the Brass Jewel to replace the missing or broken one; I can't remember when. I just realized how is this Watch set for the time? There is no Hole in the Cuvette? Regards Ray 307774.jpg 307775.jpg 307776.jpg 307777.jpg 307778.jpg 307779.jpg 307780.jpg 307781.jpg 307782.jpg 307783.jpg 307784.jpg 307785.jpg
     
  17. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    Clint, that is amazing!! Where will it be held? Any sign of Lincoln's Waltham, anywhere.....?
     
  18. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    Earlier I referenced three sources for the description, and history, of Lincoln's Waltham watch. I thought I would add pics of these for whomever may be interested

    307852.jpg 307853.jpg 307854.jpg 307855.jpg 307849.jpg 307850.jpg 307851.jpg 307831.jpg 307832.jpg 307833.jpg 307834.jpg 307835.jpg 307836.jpg 307837.jpg 307845.jpg 307846.jpg 307847.jpg 307848.jpg
     

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  19. Omexa

    Omexa Registered User
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    Hi, I don't seem to be getting anywhere in asking for some help re. my Waltham 1859 Pocket Watch; I was not trying to hijack the Abraham Lincoln post, all I wanted was some help. I will post it as a separate post in the near future. Regards Ray
     
  20. Clint Geller

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    Hi Robert,

    I started a thread on the exhibit a couple of months ago. The exhibit will be at HQ in Columbia, just 41 miles from the Gettysburg battlefield, beginning on June 29, 2019, 2 days before the 156th anniversary of the battle. My intention is to kick off the exhibit with a one-day scholarly seminar on Saturday, June 29, 2019. I have seven identified Civil War watches in my own collection, and I have commitments from a few other collectors with either identified pieces, or relevant period pieces to participate. I've been in touch with two different museums to lend Civil War artifacts other than watches to add atmosphere to the exhibit, and I have a collection of Civil War music that can be played in the background of the exhibit. For the evenings entertainment on June 29, I intend to bring my banjo and collect a few of my Old Time music friends to perform with me. I am also hoping to get some members of the 9th PA Reserves reenactment unit, based in Pittsburgh (I am an associate member) to show up in uniform (the men) or period dress (the ladies) to add additional color to the seminar.

    I could use some organizational help, so if anyone is interested in helping me to organize the seminar, I'd appreciate it. I've organized two NAWCC seminars before, so I'm no novice at this, but I didn't do it alone.
     
  21. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    #121 Clint Geller, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
    Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your case is definitely not original. Model 1859 movements were set from the rear at the center arbor, so an original Model 1859 case will have two separate key holes in the dust cover, not just one. Also, if the hands are missing, they won't be easy to replace without cannibalizing another Model 1859 movement (and why would one do that here?), because since the movement is set from the rear, the center pipe (which needs no setting square) is quite narrow and the hole in the center boss of the minute hand is very small. See, for example, the minute hand shown in Robert Mccabe's pictures.
     
  22. Omexa

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    #122 Omexa, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
    Thanks Clint, there are 2 other Cases in the Box so I will have a look. Is the Dial the right one? No luck with the other cases. Did "AM. Watch CO. Waltham. Mass" make Cases for Fusees? Regards Ray 307776.jpg
     
  23. Clint Geller

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    #123 Clint Geller, Jun 17, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 17, 2017
    I think the dial is fine. Ellery grade M59 dials generally were unsigned. And no, Waltham never made cases for fusee watches that I am aware.
     
  24. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    Clint, I see your start date of June 29. What is the end date, and what dates would you be in need of help? Do you need help prior to the 29th for setup?
     
  25. Clint Geller

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    #125 Clint Geller, Jun 24, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 24, 2017
    Hi Robert,

    I just saw your post. We have moved the start date to Saturday July 6, in order to avoid a conflict with the 2019 National Convention in St. Louis. To answer your question: Yes! It is very probable that I can use help in setting up for the seminar prior to the day. Your assistance would be greatly appreciated. Do you live near Columbia? I have one other volunteer who has come forward, and I have also reached out to the president of the local NAWCC Chapter. The end date of the exhibit has not yet been fixed in stone, but we're looking at about a six month exhibit.

    I have learned that if we are fortunate enough to get the cooperation of other museums in contributing to the exhibit, there will be expenses associated with transportation of the items and such. The funds, about $2,700, that Chapter 174 gave back to the national organization when it dissolved a while back, will be used to support this project. However, I will be seeking additional private donations, as well as a couple of commercial sponsors. I will strive to make the seminar itself self-sufficient through the registration fees.
     
  26. neighmond

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    #126 neighmond, Jun 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2017
    double posted, left the other one up.
     
  27. Clint Geller

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    #127 Clint Geller, Aug 16, 2017
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2017
    I resurrected this old thread because I just came across some relevant photos relating to the Battle of the Green River Bridge, to which my previous post referred. There is a joke that Kentucky was the only state to join the Confederacy after the war ended, but in truth, three or four times as many Kentuckians fought for the Union than for the Confederacy. (While slavery was legal in KY before the war, all states, such as Kentucky, with a relative slave population of less than 25% remained loyal, and all states that were more than 25% enslaved ultimately seceded.)

    As mentioned in the original post, The nation's attention was fixed on other sites on July 4, 1863. It was just beginning to absorb the significance of the Union victory at the Battle of Gettysburg, which had ended the previous day, and in Vicksburg, Mississippi on that day, Confederate General John C. Pemberton was surrendering the Confederacy's last stronghold on the critically important Mississippi River to Ulysses S. Grant. So relatively little notice was taken of the courageous stand of Colonel Orlando Moore and two hundred of his men against a vastly superior cavalry force under Confederate General John Hunt Morgan, in which they repulsed eight successive charges. But, IMO, Colonel Moore would be a genuine Civil War hero to commemorate with a monument.

    The pictures are from threads on the American Civil War Talk website, which I heartily recommend to anyone with an interest in the war itself, antebellum secession politics, or the Reconstruction era. The tattered flag is the colors of the 25th Michigan Infantry, for which a nearly three hundred page regimental history is available on-line. 313718.gif 313719.jpg 313720.jpg 313721.jpg 313722.jpg
     
  28. clockingscotty

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    20171027_013443.jpg 20171027_013443.jpg 20171027_013443.jpg 20171027_013507.jpg 20171027_013529.jpg 20171027_013616.jpg I noted a request to give more case information for American Waltham's from the Civil War period, and so thought to contribute mine. P.S.Bartlett #24903, which places it to January 1863, and amongst the first 10 Bartletts made in 1863 (24901-24910). The Bartletts are usually the 11 jewel version of the Model 1857. The case is an Am. Watch Co. Waltham, Mass, and numbered as a five segment star W117. I am trivia curious as to why the William Ellery models are shown as Boston?
     
  29. Clint Geller

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  30. Robert McCabe

    Robert McCabe Registered User

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    Hi Clint, I received your request to utilize pictures of my "Wm. Ellery", serial number 67581, the first made in the series from which Lincoln's came, #67613. Yes, please feel free to use them in any way you wish. If you want updated pictures, just let me know. Bob
     
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  31. Keith R...

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    Clint, glad to see you, Bob and many others are still at it. My small humble collection is
    from 61 to 65. I always keep up with what's out there. Thanks for your presentations
    and enthusiasm.

    I love what I call the soldiers watch. My WM Ellery from 64 is a favorite, (the 63 PSB is
    in a box for servicing by Rob C.). This one #SN 136619 11J I do run about once a quarter.

    Keith R...

    103_9100 (800x600).jpg 103_9106 (800x600).jpg 162a (800x800).jpg
     
  32. Clint Geller

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    Thanks, Robert. My monograph is complete now and will be going to my reviewers shortly. It is about 55,000 words, with 105 figures, 12 tables and 125 references. It is about half horology and half civil war history. I've been talking with the NAWCC Publications Editor, and it will be published through the NAWCC.
     
  33. Nick23

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    I have this Model 1857, Appleton Tracy Grade, S/N 16552 that dates to April, 1859 which is a couple of months after it became The American Watch Company. Although the movement isn't a private label the dial is signed Hemmingway & Stevens of Hartford, Connecticut. Could it be that Waltham at this early stage preferred to have their own name on the movement?

    So this watch is pre Civil War, that doesn't of course make it a watch that was a 'Civil War Watch' but it does have some connection to the war in that Hemmingway enlisted and served as a Captain and later as a Major in the 1st CT Heavy Artillery Company A. Evidently Company A comprised of Hartford volunteers.

    DSCF0130.JPG DSCF0131.JPG

    Nick
     
  34. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    You have a lovely watch, Nick. And it certainly could have been carried during the Civil War, we just don't know if it actually was. By the same token, most "railroad watches" weren't actually used on the railroads, either.

    I think in this period, the AT&Co was struggling to establish name recognition with the public, so they probably wanted their name to appear at least somewhere on the watch more than they wanted the few extra cents for filling a private label request. I suppose offering private label dials was a compromise of sorts.
     
  35. Keith R...

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    Nick, I think some retailers were dial only and some movement and dial. I'm a
    fan of any private label that may have crossed this period in US History. That's
    a very nice AT&Co watch that more than likely given the history you've mentioned
    has a high probability of being in the Frey.

    Here's one out of Portland ME, dial and movement, circa 1850. This is an American
    jeweler with a 17J English lever, advertising his goods.

    Keith R...

    103_0237 (800x600).jpg Liverpool (755x800).jpg Oliver (450x459).jpg Oliver2 (450x389).jpg
     
  36. Clint Geller

    Clint Geller Registered User
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    I could be wrong, but I don't think AT&Co ever engraved private-label movements.
     

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