About to embark on a Hermle GF simply stopped

[Lynsey]

Good Morning! I am back with a vengeance fraught with trepidation. I know this chore is long, long over due but I am going to disassemble this beloved clock which I inherited years ago. She just stopped. Was last serviced by me 5-6 years ago ( I must have been nuts) before I found all of you wonderful folks on this board.

Does anyone have any tidbits I should know before I dig in? I am photographing and will document every step and have finally roused the courage to jump back in to it. The hands are in a container, weights labeled, and I am about to remove the chains. As I am scared S***LESS, I will probably chicken out and do the minimum to clean and get her happy again. I know that Mr. Dunkin Swish is not a person to invite to the table. On the other side, if I do end up in a world of hurt, I can throw $$$$ at it and order a new movement I suppose. Thoughts? Advice, Encouragement, anyone?
I miss Willie. He would have said buck up and stop whining, have faith in yourself and just do it. Lynsey

 

[tracerjack]

I think you’ll do just fine. Standard procedure is all you need; take lots of pictures and watch out for those sneaky little washers that stick unnoticed, then fall off so you don’t know where they came from. Chimers look intimidating, but once you call their bluff and dive in, they cooperate far better than those crazy j-hooks and levers on time and strikes that keep trying to jump out as you close the plates.

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you, Tracerjack. I have the chains off and labeled and diagrammed. You are encouraging me to actually split the plates, aren't you? Ahh, brings back terrifying memories of the Fun House at Animal Forest Park. Going to indulge in a turkey lunch and contemplate my fate. I still hate clowns by the way.

 

[DannyBoy2k]

Lynsey, I was in the same state you were in before attempting to service my parent's 100+ year old German grandfather clock. I'm not sure what your level of experience with various movements is, but one thing that helped me to gain the confidence was fully documenting and understanding exactly how all the levers were operating between time, strike, and chime. Though not directly applicable for me given the age of the movement I worked on, LaBounty's "Hermle 1161" DVD course was also really helpful for understanding the basic mechanisms and how you might get the different mechanisms back into sync. Not sure what the differences between a 1151 and a 1161 might be, but that DVD might be even more useful for you.

~Dan

 

[Lynsey]

Hi Dan, Thank you so very much. I am a newbie. Known here as the Doozie King because of my penchant for acquiring the wildest pieces, aka doozies, in which to repair. I am off to investigate the DVD.

From what I can see, the 1161 is cable driven and the 1151 is like mine. Someone correct me if I am wrong but I think the Labounty DVD would be ok for me to go by. But if I am going to have to set up all these intricacies....now I am getting cold feet.

I do have a question though, I have read here that these movements have a "lifespan" of about 30 years. What does this mean exactly? I cannot fathom that they should be replaced after 30 or so years. I certainly do not want to do so after seeing the prices of these movements. Edit: I think I answered my own question. I inspected this bugger and I can see that the flies are very worn. I can only imagine that the rest of the wheels and pinions are of the same ilk. Too bad, because all is very tight. No elongated holes either.

 

[Lynsey]

Here is a picture of what I thought could be the issue of her simply stopping. I thought these looked dirty and rusty. But upon removal, I see that these black disks are actually fiber type washers. There seems to be factory intended friction here but maybe not enough. Maybe the power of the verge from the pendulum is allowing it to twist on the shaft not allowing enough power to run the escape wheel..... Forgive my butchering of terminology, it is been a while since I have been intelligent.

It is supposed to have play in it?

All seems to be in order, no dust, no dirt. Maybe a little dirt caught in 2 pivot holes, but thats about it.

 

[Ed O'Brien]

Caution. If it just stopped, quite likely the result of all-to-common bushing wear, typically early in the train. Regarding cleaning, these movements, with their very small pivots do not clean well without disassembly and pegging the bushing holes. Upon reassembly, be careful not to attempt to relocate a pivot by using any force as the pivots are thin and not very strong.

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you, Ed. I can see these pivots are tiny indeed. I have some contemplating to do. OK, I have decided to replace this movement. Now, can anyone point me in the right direction to obtain a Hermle 1151-050H please?

 

[wow]

Lynsey, I suggest that before you take it apart, rock the sprockets on each train and watch each pivot in that train on both plates as you rock the sprocket. Mark each pivot that is sloppy. Mark them on the side where the wear is when the sprocket is turned in the direction of operation. Then disassemble. I suggest that you mark every wheel on the top side while disassembling. C-1, C-2, T-1, T-2, S-1, S-2 etc., marking every wheel in each train. When you begin reassembly, you will be so glad you did this. Some people mark using a fine point sharpie and some scratch the mark in the wheel. Your choice.
A weight driven movement is much better to deal with than spring driven. No power let down to deal with. Just remove weights. You already know this, but take many photos before and during assembly.
Let us help you if you get into trouble. You have enough experience to handle it. Just Do It!!

 

[Lynsey]

Wow!!! Good to hear from you! Hope all is very well in your corner of the barn! You are right. Just do it. Yes, I will follow your instructions. No, I am not a scratcher, sharpies are dandy. I label everything on a clock. I have already committed a faux pas. I turned a fly and it skidded along the wheel. Same with the other side. Kind of like pouring yourself a double knowing right well you should not. So I am already "off" somewhere. Guess I jumped into the deep end first, as usual.

I will take this apart. But please, will someone tell me where to buy another one so I have a solid backup plan and I can sleep tonight knowing there is a light at the end of the Hermle tunnel.

 

[wow]

Mark Butterworth has them at a good price. The flys are different on the chime and strike side. Did you get them crossed?

 

[woodlawndon]

Take it apart, you'll be fine. The pivots at the top are tiny as you know, go slow during reassembly. My experience has been that the lower pivot holes on these are most likely to need rebushing unlike the usual American made clocks. Tracer gave good advice about watching for the small washers, look for them at each pulled part, they're important. Will mentioned the fans being different for the strike and chime, they look similar but they're not. Take close pictures of these, I made that mistake and it took me 3 disassemblies before I figured it out (I'll never do it again though).

You can do it.
Don

 

[Vernon]

I agree with the David LaBounty recommendation, I borrowed it from the library. Also, Conover's Chime Clock Repair book will give you tips for this and other brands.

If your clock has plated pivots, you might be gentle when polishing. Even so, it will be fun to work on!

 

[D.th.munroe]

These blow up diagrams from Hermle may help as well.

Document Downloads

www.cousinsuk.com

Dan.

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you all so very much. I am indeed very excited to get this working again. Wow, no. I have not split the plates yet. I have to hedge my bets so I am contacting Mark about a new one. But that has nothing to do with my present movement, full steam ahead, matey.

I am going to disassemble this and get it working again. I am in la la land about how to fix/repair/replace the fly pinions. They look like an hourglass almost. But I have a long way to go before that is a pressing issue. I can rest easy now that I know that she will run again and best case scenario, I will have a spare movement if necessary. Having a new one in a box allows me to take my time, do it right, ask questions and actually learn and have fun with this with a lower blood pressure. Dan, thank you for the info. Vernon and Don, thank you for the encouragement and info! Off to check out Mr. Conover.

 

[shutterbug]

I think your fear of the big movement is keeping you prisoner, Lynsey. If you create a picture reference while you take it apart, you'll be able to get it back together again just fine. In many ways, the three train chimers are easier than the two train count wheel clocks. Most of the adjustments you need can be done after the movement is back together. They are pretty forgiving. I would encourage you to keep the replacement option on the back burner while you dig in and try to fix the one you have. It's always there as an option if you fail ... but I don't think you'll fail. Keep in mind the personal satisfaction you'll experience when you return your clock to working condition. Add to that the help and encouragement you'll then be in a position to offer to other people with the same fears. Dig in there and "git 'er done"

 

[Lynsey]

You are spot on, Shutterbug. I am delving into it right now. Is there any place I can find a diagram or something to tell me the names of some of these parts of this movement? I did go to the link that Dan sent me and downloaded all of the Hermle documents and read them, but nothing was on the individual parts. Great info though.

I have a wheel I cannot identify and do not know if it needs replacing or was born this way. Here is a picture. I am pointing to the item in question. This is a Hermle 1151-050H movement dated 1982. The second pic shows the suspected worn part A. Now is this being worn down by that little lever B?

I would like to know the name of this bugger should I need to get one.

Thanks in advance. Lynsey the fearless Doozy King

 

[Vernon]

A and B weren't designed to contact each other. A is a part of the motion works and is called an idler gear transferring motion from one wheel to another. B pushes on the lifting lever to start the chime/strike functions. I think that what you are seeing is the remnants of the machining process.

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you, Vernon! I now understand. I could not grasp why the idler gear seemed to do nothing at all as it did not go anywhere and was not connected to anything in the conventional sense my brain was trying to imagine. Yes, I get it. It transfers motion.
I was thinking that the machining marks were left by the "hook" on the three pointed thingy underneath of the center post.
I appreciate your time and wisdom. Off to diagram the back side now.

 

[tracerjack]

This article in “How to do it” lists all the chime parts.
https://mb.nawcc.org/wiki/Chime-Clock-Basics

 

[Lynsey]

Hi Tracerjack! Thank you for that valuable link. Lots of great info there for me to digest. Might there be any place that shows the inside with the wheels identified individually? I dont know my time from my strike from a hole in the wall anymore. I am assuming the strike side is the side with the chime choice lever and the time is the far left side. I am disassembling and sharpieing everything and diagramming my progress and taking photos. With all of my clock books, I have nothing that even has a picture of this movement! This is heck of a project to dive into after a year off from clocking around.

 

[tracerjack]

Looking at the front plate, you can identify the chime train by the lumpy locking plate. Strike is always near the rack hook. Time is sandwiched in between the two. As others have noted, the fans for chime and strike look alike but they are not interchangeable. When I open the plates, I just keep the Strike wheels together with some thin wire. Then do the same with the Chime. The Time has so few wheels, I just leave them loose. But even if you get them mixed up, they aren’t interchangeable either. I’ve put whole trains in upside down, because I left out the mainspring barrels (which would have told me which side was up) but I’ve never been able to put a single wheel in the wrong train. They just don’t match up. On top of that, there are several members here that can identify the wheels and where they go just by looking at them. I’m not that good, but you’ll definitely get your movement going with help from the forum.

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you, Tracerjack. I appreciate your advice. I have taken it apart for tonight. I am shocked at how well the plates look. I am going to need the magnifying camera to identify any out of round pivot holes. How sensitive are these movements? Any sense of humor at all? This was not dry at all. A little grubby, yes. But nothing compared to the doozies I usually rescue.

I performed the sprocket rocking. There was no appreciable slop anywhere, everyone was tightly tucked in. All wheels labeled, set screws secured, e clips labeled. Here is the results of tonights butchery. Tomorrow is cleaning and pegging and inspecting all pieces. Thank you all for your help so far....much appreciated!

 

[wow]

The plates look good in the photo. You may have a movement that needs no bushings. Perhaps it has not been run much in it’s lifetime. You may be able to just clean holes, shine up the pivots, clean up everything else, and put it back together. That would be great.

 

[shutterbug]

The chime side is going to wear the most because it's under the most pressure. Be sure to check the pivots for movement. And no, these are not very forgiving That little idler gear, for more info, is a 12 to 1 gear ratio, and controls the hour hand movement so it stays in sync with the minute hand. Sometimes it is called the minute wheel or the hour wheel too.

 

[Lynsey]

Thanks, Shutterbug. I appreciate the info. These critters are so different from my beloved NH's. I am inspecting now and I have a worn pinion. This wheel is attached to the locking pallet.

Kindly educate me as to what wheel I need to try to get to replace this poor worn out one. The pivot hole is in great shape, but this wheel wobbles a tad too much for my liking.

 

[shutterbug]

Someone here likely has one of those in their bone pile. Give it a day or two

 

[Lynsey]

Great. I found another worn wheel, but this time I cannot find out the proper name of the piece it is connected.
Sorry to be a pain, but I have no other info and there is nothing on the networld.

So, my question is....what is the name of the part in the picture and what is the wheel to which it is connected? Please and thank you!

 

[tracerjack]

I’m a bit confused by what exactly is worn on the wheels that you want to replace them. You state that the pivot holes are fine but the wheel wobbles. Wheels usually wobble because the pivot hole is worn. So that’s why I’m confused. Well, they also wobble if the arbor is bent. The part you show is the gathering pallet. I would think the wheel would be S3 or 4. Someone here will know.

 

[Lynsey]

Hi Tracerjack, what I am seeing here is the pinion on two of the wheels are, in my humble opinion, visibly worn down.
I have arrowed the spot and the concaveness (?) I am noticing. To address your post, I did find wobble but by Jiminy, the hole was not bad enough, nor was the wobble severe enough to not proceed with the reassembly. I have done bushing jobs before so I am not fearful of that. Thank you for reminding me of the pivot issues. Lawdy, are the delicate! Heart stopping negotiating when squeezing the plates together.

I inspected and cleaned every inch of this bugger and put it back together. As I said, this Hermle is a whole new horserace for me. The starting gate has been moved and the track is shorter. Thank goodness for stirrup cups and the Bat!!

I did thoroughly enjoy the lack of insolent interior springs with which to deal and I feel I put it together in record time of 1.5 hours.
Sadly, and much to my chagrin, I know nothing of who, what, where or why in regards to this wonderful piece of workmanship. This will motivate me to obtain solid documentation of these movements but that will only lead to trouble. If I start collecting Grandfather Clocks, I will be put up for adoption.

However, I forgot a washer (as you kindly mentioned to me in post number 2), so I will be splitting the plates yet again on Thursday to put this washer back where it apparently needs to be.

I am correct in assuming this pinion is worn, yes?

 

[tracerjack]

I can’t tell from the photo whether it is wear or tapered by design. I have done many chimers, but only two Hermle, so not sure if that is how the pinion leaves normally look. How does it mesh with the adjoining wheel? If it is sloppy, then I’d agree it’s worn.

 

[wow]

It is not worn. It is supposed to be tapered. The arrow in post 28 is the gathering pallet.

 

[Lynsey]

Whoo Hoo, Will! Glad to hear that. And no, there was no slop upon further examination. Thank you. It is back together, but has to be ripped apart to put that damn washer in. I wish I had a real schematic to go by, pictures look great but boy, depth perception from a photo is murder.

 

[D.th.munroe]

I wish I had a real schematic to go by,

The link to these didn't help?

 

[Lynsey]

Dan, I did not find that one on the link you so kindly sent me. All there seemed to be for the 1150-050 was a download called measurements. WHat is the name of the link from which you obtained the above? Thanks, Lynsey

 

[D.th.munroe]

It's the one labeled 1151.05 series, heres a direct link.

https://www.cousinsuk.com/PDF/categories/190_Hermle%201151.050.pdf

 

[shutterbug]

Mark Butterworth has exploded pictures of several movements and their parts, that he supplies on a thumb drive. They are not too expensive, and would give you a lot of information that you are seeking

 

[D.th.munroe]

The one in my picture above is an original hard copy folder of all the movements, I'm pretty sure it came from Mark years ago.

The only minor problem is the part lists are only in German, so if you dont know the proper name of the part you need in English you need to translate or search the part number.

Shutterbug, does he have the service manual on a drive as well?

 

[shutterbug]

I think it is included .... but better ask him to be sure

 

[Lynsey]

Oooh, Thank you so much, Dan and Shutterbug!!! I printed it out and am sitting down now to attack it again. Thanks again!

 

[Lynsey]

I have just put the movement all back together. All wheels shuck as they should. I can apply pressure to the center ratchet and the movement moves nicely. Only lost one tiny e clip in the process. Replaced with wire until I can replace it.

At this moment, even after a full 8 hours on this today, I do like these movements. Unless something changes my mind, such as it will not work now. They are honest and relatively straightforward, even though they are delicate as all get out.

Does anyone have any advice on anyting I should check, do or configure afore I put this back in the case?

Thanks so much!

 

[tracerjack]

If you can set up a test stand, I’d test it for several days before putting back in the case. If you have to make any adjustments to the verge it’s going to be a pain taking it in and out of the case unless you can adjust this one while in the case. With some 2x4 pieces and two tables the same height, you can probably cobble together something that can work.

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you, Tracerjack. I had forgotten about the verge issues. I was anticipating having to adjust any chiming problems.
I also was wondering how one determines if they the autobeat feature on this movement?

 

[wow]

I don’t think it has auto beat. You will need to set the beat by adjusting the crutch manually.

 

[shutterbug]

Is the chime barrel in sync with the timing wheel so it does the proper 4 (Westminster) notes on the quarter? Is the gathering pallet adjusted so the strike hammers fall just before the stop? How does the warning on the chime side look - long enough but not too long? You don't want any hammers lifting during the warn on either train. All those things are easier to adjust on a test stand Also, it's easier to adjust the chime hammers with one of the other tunes, not Westminster. You watch it at the quarter hour, and you'll have all 8 hammers fall in order when it's right.

 

[Lynsey]

Thank you, Shutterbug. I would love to be able to answer your questions, but alas, I have succumbed to the need for Instant Gratification and have just installed the movement into the case. IG is the sister of Karma.

It runs!!!!! Yay!!!! Oh, you have no idea.....time for celebrations...let the Bat loose!!!

Now for the 'I told you so' follow ups, and I rightfully deserve them. The chime selection lever - - When moving it from silent down to Westminster works to design intent and feels good. But if you go back up....no resistance. The chime pin barrel (?) seems to be sticking. I can unstick it by flipping the hammers back and letting them go. Therefore, she is not chiming yet. What should I do now? (hanging head in sheepish shame but still happy the damn thing runs and it's snowing!!!! )

 

[tracerjack]

Take it back our and make a stand out of whatever you can find, bearing in mind that weights are heavy. You’ll need to see it run from all sides to make sure it’s working properly.

 

[bangster]

I love helping Linsey. She's so malleable.

 

[Lynsey]

Bangster! I was hoping you would join this party!!! Thank you for the kind compliment....malleability is a key component of adaptability and survival. And you already know, I am one of those certified fully loaded nut jobs. You are so very astute!!! Now give me a minute whilst I get this movement on some sort of half fast test stand.

By the way, it has been running and keeping perfect time since she was reassembled yesterday afternoon!!! The tick and the tock sound beautiful, very peaceful now. Again, yay for little old malleable me!

 

[kinsler33]

Chiming issues: make sure that the heaviest weight is running the chime train.

Running issues: You should probably get about 7 cm of pendulum travel after you've put it in beat and the pendulum has settled down and run for perhaps 20 minutes. If you're at all dissatisfied with the amount of pendulum motion you'll want to have a look at the pallet pivots--that is, the pivots on the anchor thing. Ideally you'd also want to deal with the escape wheel pivots as well.

It often happens that these escapement parts will pass the rocking test quite nicely when in fact they'd benefit with bushing. Even an imperceptible rattle in these will result in enough lost motion in the escapement to greatly reduce the pendulum motion and the general vigor of the clock.

The pallet/verge/anchor can be removed without affecting the plates, so mark the position of the removable hole (generally combined with the slotted post that bears the suspension spring) and pull the verge out. Find bushings that fit those pivots quite closely: the pivots must be free, but as tight as you can get them. Bush the holes (don't worry about hole location; we're dealing with adjustable depths here) and re-assemble.

If you can use a plate spreader consider extracting the escape wheel and, no matter if its pivot holes seem unworn, re-bush those too. You can do it without disassembling the movement as long as you're careful.

This is my operation of last resort when I've got a misbehaving time train.

Mark Kinsler