A.Willmann & Co Regulators

[tarant]

Re: German movement id.

Not all (especially in the beginning), but generally at the end of century the number of "degenerated" cases in this style was growing. That's typical in evolution
Look at this Becker. Isn't he a post nuclear war mutant ?

 

[Albra]

Re: German movement id.

Albra, those are Gustav Becker (GB) clocks. It was the illustration about deterioration of the style, a little OT. It's not easy to show even such small collection of Willmann weight driven clocks.

Piotr, thank you again for your pictures! You have very well presented the developement in the style of the Silesian clock cases. We recognize the slow transformation from a Viennese Classicism towards the German historicism. It is obvious that change could only be made in small steps.

albra

 

[blindraccoon]

Re: German movement id.

Not all (especially in the beginning), but generally at the end of century the number of "degenerated" cases in this style was growing. That's typical in evolution
Look at this Becker. Isn't he a post nuclear war mutant ?

Is it Becker or the clock you are referencing as being a mutant? Seriously though, you can talk about evolution all day long as it pertains to 'style', but change also typically occurs when there is a (marketing) demand for it. Apparently it was growing because there were a few decadent eclectic collectors who liked and/or appreciated big ol' clunky, maybe excessively carved ornate German clock cases. Clock makers answered the call...

 

[John Hubby]

Re: German movement id.

Here's a another Willman spring driven movement with logo - stamp.

Jan, the photos you posted for serial number 102710 show two different movements. From the photo quality and movement details, it appears that photos 1, 6, 7, 8, and 9 are the same movement which is the one with serial number 102710 and the Willmann logo. However, photos 2, 3, 4, 5, and 10 are of a completely different movement, for example: (a) different fly design. (b) different movement support plate, (c) anchor arbor rear bridge has suspension hanger. Also there is no photo of the back of the second movement or of its dial. Does the second movement also have a Willmann logo stamp? If so, it will be appreciated if you could post the dial and back plate photos and let us know for sure which photos belong to each movement.

 

[janekp]

Re: German movement id.

Thanks John Hubby,photos 6, 7, 8, and 9 are the same movement Willman spring driven which is the one with serial number 102710 and the Willmann logo.Photos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 10 are of an Klose&Zeuner mouwement ,sorry of an mistake,aberration.

 

[Albra]

Re: German movement id.

Photos 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 10 are of an Klose&Zeuner movement

Jan, as far es we know, Klose & Zeuner didn´t have own movements, but related all movements. As far as I can see, this is not a Werner movement.

Please show detailed photos of this movement in a new thread, may be we will recognize the real facturer.

albra

 

[janekp]

Re: German movement id.

http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/6ec82c6938f3.jpg
http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/1ff309bdbd9a.jpg

http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/236a8feef0d7.jpg
http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/aa1bfe06b13d.jpg
http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/2b4a641eb7c4.jpg
http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/4d4e29a4bfd7.jpg
http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/d597f021ffc1.jpg

http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/6858bbf48bf0.jpg

http://naforum.zapodaj.net/thumbs/6cde41d0635e.jpg

 

[Albra]

Willmann alarm with Junghans movement

Steven, please merge this thread with the Willmann-thread. Thank you!

Greetings all,

for scientific purposes I show you pictures of a Willmann alarm with Junghans movement. Or should I say: a Junghans alarm with the logo of Willmann?




The explanation for this puzzle can be found here:

https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?117644-A-mysterious-Alarm-Clock-of-Willmann

albra

 

[suparchw]

Anyone seen this mark before?

I couldn't find in K. Kockmann's book.
Any info. is highly appreciated. Thank you so much.

Suparchoek W.

 

[tarant]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

Of course Albert Willmann, Freiburg in Schlesien.
https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?68876-A-Willmann-Co-Regulators

 

[suparchw]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

Thank you so much, tarant. ^________________________^

 

[John Hubby]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

I couldn't find in K. Kockmann's book.
Any info. is highly appreciated. Thank you so much.

Suparchoek W.

Your clock is very definitely made by A. Willmann & Co as Piotr has already mentioned. In addition, it was made in early 1882 based on the serial number. Willmann was one of the "child" companies formed by ex-employees of Gustav Becker in Freiburg, Silesia. Other than Willmann there was Böhm, Concordia, Endler, Germania, and Kappel, all of whom merged back into GB in June 1899 when the Freiburg United Clockmakers was formed (Vereinigte Freiburger Uhrenfabriken incl. vorm. Gustav Becker).

It would be very much appreciated if you could post complete photos of your clock, including full front, dial, movement support bracket and gong, movement back plate, pendulum, etc. With those we will be able to do a complete documentation about your clock and provide other information. We will look forward to seeing the photos.

 

[suparchw]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

Thanks John, I will ask my friend to send the photos and post here. ^_______________^ Have a nice day.

 

[suparchw]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

Ok. As you wish John. Thank you so much.

 

[John Hubby]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

Ok. As you wish John. Thank you so much.

Suparchoek W, thanks very much for posting the photos of your friend's Willmann clock. These provide some important confirmation that the clock is definitely by Willmann, as follows:

1. The hands are exclusive to Willmann clocks, not having been seen with any other maker. Very distinctive and have been present on 2/3 of all Willmann clocks documented to date. Of the others not having these hands about half are obvious replacements, the hands were missing on several and there are three clocks we don't know for certain are by Willmann.

2. The movement has a Ges. Gesch. protected front plate eccentric for the strike train fly pivot. The back of the eccentric can be seen in the photo taken of the top of the movement. This is present in all Willmann time/strike weight driven movements from as early as 1875 and continuing to 1899 when they merged with Gustav Becker and five other companies.

3. The movement and gong support bracket is the same as the first one used by Willmann for time/strike movements. This bracket continued in use to at least 1898 and possibly in the final year 1899. To date, five movement support bracket designs have been documented with Willmann clocks:
> The one with this clock, found with 45% of the clocks documented and the most frequently used.
> The same basic design but with a round extension for the gong mount instead of the rectangular one with this clock, another 14% of clocks documented.
> An inverted "Y" design used with time-only and a slightly wider design for time/strike movements, 22% of clocks documented.
> A triangle design, found only with time/strike movements, 12% of total.
> A horizontal bar with oval section above also found only with time/strike movements, 7% of total.

Please advise your friend of this information, there is no question he has an early and complete Willmann clock.

I will be merging this thread with the Willmann main thread for archival and study purposes.

 

[Sc-texas]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

I picked this up at the NAWCC regional on Friday

Any idea how old it is?

Any thoughts or comments on its history?











































You can see that the pendulum has been rubbing.










8. There's some writing on the pendulum







9. Do these screws look old?





10. What is the stuff on the strike or hammer? Sorry the properr name escapes me.

 

[Sc-texas]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

so, is that an A.Willmann & Co or something else?

 

[Sc-texas]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?



Thought this was interesting. I stopped in at more time in Spring Texas and had a look at their trademark book.

 

[JTD]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

Yes, but please be careful about accepting everything you read in this particular book at face value - unfortunately, it contains many errors.

There are other more reliable sources.

JTD

 

[Sc-texas]

Re: Anyone seen this mark before?

Yes, but please be careful about accepting everything you read in this particular book at face value - unfortunately, it contains many errors.

There are other more reliable sources.

JTD

That'she why I posted above asking if it was an A. Willman.

The story of this kind of confusing as to that particular trademark

 

[KBwindup]

Hi All

I ve attached photos of a AW & Co clock that I ve just finished working on. Its almost identical to one that Jmeechie posted previously.
Serial number is also very close 63458. As I say my markings are in identical locations to Piotrs and with the 'case/movement bracket'? the same, holding the pendulum to the back of the case.
Anyone any idea of approx age?
Also has anyone any suggestions on how to transport the movement with allowing the lines to ravel up?
PS the movement pictures are prior to overhaul

Regards
Eamonn

 

[gintarasb64]

Hello,
Some time ago, I post a request to identify the clock movement. With Tatyana's help, we found it is made by Willmann. I would like to share more information about this clock. It is grand sonnerie unsigned movement, serial number 94598. What is uncommon, that movement has 3 hammers and there are 3 gongs. 2 hammers (bim-bam) are used for striking quarter and 3d is used for striking hours in every quarter. I never seen such option before. It is really difficult task to achieve good quality striking because gongs, hammers, pendulum and other movement parts are so close to each other The clock case is not original. Any comments would be interesting. Best regards
Gintaras

View attachment 518029

 

[Tatyana]

Hello,
Some time ago, I post a request to identify the clock movement. With Tatyana's help, we found it is made by Willmann. I would like to share more information about this clock. It is grand sonnerie unsigned movement, serial number 94598. What is uncommon, that movement has 3 hammers and there are 3 gongs. 2 hammers (bim-bam) are used for striking quarter and 3d is used for striking hours in every quarter. I never seen such option before. It is really difficult task to achieve good quality striking because gongs, hammers, pendulum and other movement parts are so close to each other The clock case is not original. Any comments would be interesting. Best regards
Gintaras

Hi all!

Gintaras, I have about 100 movements of this firm in my database. Unfortunately there is no similar movement, it is unique!

I want to share my findings on this company.
At Willmann, there were two numbering: the first came to serial number 103_975



the second to 63_422.



I.e. in total, this company produced 168 thousand movements.

In the first numbering there are almost no marked movements, so it is difficult to find new movements of the early period.
In the second numbering movement marked, among them a lot of spring movements.

One of the oldest Willmann (the second half of the 1870s):



BR, Tatyana

 

[Tatyana]

... One of the oldest Willmann (the second half of the 1870s):

There is even earlier movement A.Willmann & Co Regulators

 

[Walt Wallgren]

Hi Tatyana,

You are probably aware that John Hubby also has a Willmann database, perhaps you should get together and compare notes?

Thanks,
Walt

 

[AG1986]

Hi, new to the forum with some questions about an inherited clock.

I received a clock from my grandparents a few years back and just had it cleaned and maintenanced and found little info about it. I will add some more pictures when I am able, but it seems it is stamped with the Gustav Becker 2 lions around a clock as well as A.Willmann & Co. But the serial number doesn't seem to fit in the time frame given.

My clockmaker said that Freiburg is stamped as well with the rest (I'm sorry I don't currently have a picture of any of this) but the serial number doesn't seem to match what I have found given the possible dates.

I can update this later with the serial number and some more images, but any information I can get from anyone would help greatly, I'd love to know more about this clocks story and timeline!

 

[Tatyana]

Hi!
Very nice clock.
We are looking forward to your pics of the movement.
While no pics, I want to ask a question to the forum. What letters do you see on this mark Willmann?

On the left side I saw AW II, and on the right - ?



BR, Tatyana

 

[JTD]

On the left side I saw AW II, and on the right - ?

Yes, that is a nice puzzle, Tatyana! I will keep trying to solve it and of course tell you if I find anything.

JTD

 

[AG1986]

Ok, as promised, here are the pictures of the markings on the movement. Based on what I have found online, the makers stamp should say that this clock is from 1898 to 1899, however the listing of serial numbers does not match that date range, so I don't know if that means this clock was made in a different shop than what is stated on it. There are no other markings on the back plate and I believe the case might be a marriage, or even just the whole back mounting plate of wood might be a marriage due to some of the screw holes not lining up (as seen in the picture of the mount)

The only information I do have on this clock thus far is that my great grandfather pulled it out of a dumpster in their apartment complex years ago when my grandmother was a little girl. I've never seen any of the wood finial pieces, they have been missing since I was a kid and I don't know if they ever came with the clock when my grandfather found it.

Any help or information you guys can provide to help me get a better story on this beautiful clock would be great!

 

[Tatyana]

Ok, as promised, here are the pictures of the markings on the movement. Based on what I have found online, the makers stamp should say that this clock is from 1898 to 1899...

Hi!
The movement of this clock is the result of cooperation of "Schlenker & Kienzle" and "A.Willmann" in 1896. During this period, A. Willmann had hard times.
In my base Kienzle three movement with this stigma:



For comparison, the Kienzle movement:



P.S.AG1986, the last pic is very cute.

 

[AG1986]

Tatyana, thanks for that info, that looks exactly like the back of my clock movement, as does the insignia. I can't believe my great grandfather found this piece in the dumpster, and that it's over 120 yrs old!

I'm glad you liked the last picture, I hadn't meant to post it initially, it was what my clock repairman drew to give me an idea of the stamp. I was going to post it first and decided to take the movement from the case to get a shot of the actual stamp and I guess I forgot to take it from my posting.

 

[Tatyana]

Hi all!

I have a desire to write on the forum about the two numberings of A.Willmann.
My question is about the largest serial number of this company 110_662. I have never seen him completely.
Do you have such a picture?
Does anyone have numbers close to this? I have the previous number 103_975



BR,Tatyana

P.S. Now I have 160 movements AW (75 - old numbering, 85 - new numbering).

 

[gintarasb64]

Sharing pictures of Willmann Vienna Regulator. Maybe would be interesting for the records. Regards
Gintaras

 

[alanwah]

Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

Hi John

a couple of minor points.....stamp is "freiburg i schl" rather than "freiburg i schles"

there is a number "7" below the stamp main stamp marks in the centre......wonder what the significance is?

also 3 further photos for the record

Regards

Alan

View attachment 453662 View attachment 453663 View attachment 453664

Hi again John

It is several years now since posts on this clock.....I have just taken it off the wall as it has suddenly stopped working having been in place without interruption. I wondered if you can update me with details of your database and whether there are any new fact discovered about the Willman clocks?

Regards

Alan

 

[Tatyana]

Hi again John

It is several years now since posts on this clock.....I have just taken it off the wall as it has suddenly stopped working having been in place without interruption. I wondered if you can update me with details of your database and whether there are any new fact discovered about the Willman clocks?

Regards

Alan

Alan, the Polish colleagues are most active in relation to the Freiburg clock factories.
I recommend the topic Numeracja w A. Willmann & Co.
The movement of your clock was made in the first half of the 1890s

BR, Tatyana

 

[David Scott]

Bought this weight driven impressive wall clock from the family of a dying German Immigrant with several other clocks. was told you are collecting info on Willmann clocks and that this was a willmann trademark. will send pics later

 

[Tatyana]

Bought this weight driven impressive wall clock from the family of a dying German Immigrant with several other clocks. was told you are collecting info on Willmann clocks and that this was a willmann trademark. will send pics later

I believe your movement is made circa 1897.

BR, Tatyana

 

[gintarasb64]

Hello again,
Sharing pictures of nice Vienna Regulator by Willmann. Best regards
Gintaras

 

[pbowe]

I am thankful for these forums, based on this thread I was able to identify the maker of this clock as A.Willmann & Co. I'm curious if anyone knows the significance of the marking on the pendulum bar (looks like a backward "C" followed by "GMS") or the stamp at the bottom that says 1.MILLION.

 

[Steven Thornberry]

Greetings, pbowe.

If you read the following post, you will discover what DGMS (and its better-known alternative DRGM) refers to. It is essentially a utility patent. A google search of DRGM will provide additional information.

D.R.G.M Numbers & D.R.P Numbers ?? | NAWCC Forums

The 1 Million would mean that the "real" serial number of the movement would be 1,000,000 + the stamped numerals above it. I cannot make out the numerals.

 

[pbowe]

Greetings, pbowe.

If you read the following post, you will discover what DGMS (and its better-known alternative DRGM) refers to. It is essentially a utility patent. A google search of DRGM will provide additional information.

D.R.G.M Numbers & D.R.P Numbers ?? | NAWCC Forums

The 1 Million would mean that the "real" serial number of the movement would be 1,000,000 + the stamped numerals above it. I cannot make out the numerals.

Great thank you. I did google "GMS", didn't realize it was a "D" since the bar was missing or may have worn off. Thanks for the information.

 

[Tatyana]

I am thankful for these forums, based on this thread I was able to identify the maker of this clock as A.Willmann & Co. I'm curious if anyone knows the significance of the marking on the pendulum bar (looks like a backward "C" followed by "GMS") or the stamp at the bottom that says 1.MILLION.

View attachment 683404 View attachment 683405 View attachment 683406 View attachment 683407

This movement was made in late 1901 by Kienzle for Willmann-2.
Willmann-1 and Kienzle collaborated in the mid-1890s.

Then a special signature was used on the movements.



Regards
Tatyana

 

[alanwah]

Alan, the Polish colleagues are most active in relation to the Freiburg clock factories.
I recommend the topic Numeracja w A. Willmann & Co.
The movement of your clock was made in the first half of the 1890s

BR, Tatyana

Tatyana...thank you, apologies as only just found your message.....I'll have to brush up on my polish!
Interesting that John Hubby was looking at an 1878-79 date from his records.
Thanks

Alan

 

[Tatyana]

Tatyana...thank you, apologies as only just found your message.....I'll have to brush up on my polish!
Interesting that John Hubby was looking at an 1878-79 date from his records.
Thanks

Alan

Hi, Allan

John answered several years ago, then it was believed that Willmann produced ~ 111,000 movements, in fact, 1.5 times more ~ 164,000.
Then there was not even a suggestion of a 2nd numbering.
The second numbering appeared at the turn of the 1880s / 1890s.

I have over 250 movements in my database that helped me do this.
I have minimal knowledge of statistics, but there is common sense that helps me analyze the data.
There is also a very simple way: case analysis; before considering the peculiarities of movement, I estimate the age on a case-by-case basis.
Your case looks like 1890+. This is both the removable crown and the style of the bottom of the case.

I can prove it for a long time with numbers, statistics and changes in the design of the movements, but it will take a long time.
And my English is Google-translate, I worry that my texts are hard to read.

Regards
Tatyana