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A.Willmann & Co Regulators

Albra

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

Greetings John and thank you for your very detailed answer!

It is very impressive how you try to compensate our lack of historical information by observing clocks and their serial numbers . One can thereby gain great insights. Up to this point, I'm talking to you from the highest recognition.

One problem for me are still your assumptions on the serial number to date clocks. There are many uncertainties that we need to consider. Because sales of the clocks and the rise of serial numbers depends on many factors:

Positive affects for a rise of serial numbers are:

- New machinery and a good technical equipment
- good sales opportunities
- Increasing staff numbers

Negative effects and a fall in sales is caused by:

- Strikes
- Fires, destroyed steam engines,
- Tariff restrictions
- Legal requirements

Further uncertainties in the use of serial numbers arise from the different approaches of the companies:

- Some companies have assigned separate serial numbers for their movements.
- Some companies have introduced later serial numbers.
- Some companies have started the serial numbers only at a few thousand.

And so on. You see, there are very many ways to err.

An example: We know that Lenzkirch in 1875 had more than 600 workers in 1882 but only about 350. Do you think Lenzkirch in 1882 did produce more clocks, as in 1875? I can not imagine that.

Or for example Willmann: We know that Willmann had very bad years and stood before the bankruptcy. And yet you're assuming that the same amount of clocks have been produced, as in the years before? Also I can not imagine.

Further: In your article you show us some pictures. I have a question about this movement:
200054.jpg

You date this movement 1887-1890.

I also know this movement. It is very surprising, because its not in Austrian style, but in French style.

Did you notice, that this movement is most likely a Werner movement?

Please compare: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?108029-Post-your-Carl-Werner-movements-here-(French-Style)
In case this is a related movement, I ´d say the serial number is not by Willmann, but by the supplier.

Or what do you think?

albra
 
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Albra

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

John, as I said, I have great respect for your efforts and observations. This results in this real conclusions and findings.

I find very interesting, for example, your reference to the hands . I did not know that Willmann has used only two different forms. But because hands most liekely have been related, we have to be careful with conclusions.

But a really interesting question is: How many different movements Willmann has made? And do you know wether the gears were stamped or cast by Willmann?

This answer would really bring us further insights.

albra
 

John Hubby

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

Albra, thanks for your kind words. My efforts at dating various makers' clocks by way of using serial numbers as a primary marker has uncovered many things that were previously unknown, or based on hearsay and other false information, or simply ignored because "serial numbers have no meaning".

However, serial numbers are only one of many parameters that I record and use for confirmation of dating estimates. At a minimum, the following are also used for each and every maker where I undertake to create a serial number dating correlation:

1) Known commercial events:

These include such information as the founding of a company, bankruptcy proceedings, known economic recessions, closure notices, moves from one location to another, opening of more than one factory where a new or different serial number system may be used, expansions or closures, etc.

2) Trade advertisements and articles:

These include dated advertisements showing the products of the company as well as critical information such as logos and trademark dates, addresses, and the like. The publishing of the AJU, DUZ, and Keystone has greatly facilitated this effort, in fact the amount of information now available from these three sources alone is almost overwhelming.

3) Sale catalogs:

The more the merrier, especially when dated. These profusely illustrate the company's products, designs, patents, etc. and when you have multiple year editions you can track the model and style changes.

4) Patent information:

Doug Stevenson's effort to publish a complete set of the patent announcements from the DUZ, from 1877 to 1932, has been a godsend. I only wish it was digitized so I could search it by computer instead of manually. The patent search sites now available also give us access to many patents not available just a few years back. Knowing a patent grant date will provide a "not earlier than" date of manufacture, since the patent number is unknown until that date and if present on a clock or the item patented can be readily identified, you that the serial number associated with the patent will give you an "anchor point" in the data correlation. Patent expiry dates are quite amorphous and thus not nearly as good for dating but are useful for early estimates and later correlations.

5) Dated Presentation Inscriptions

These give you a "not later than" date that can be very useful. A very few presentations are found that are made years after the clock is made, however the huge majority are within a year or two of the actual manufacturing date and when you have multiple such inscriptions they provide a lot of glue to tie the overall correlations together.

6) Spreadsheet and Database use

For each maker I record from 20 to 30 data points for each clock that describe the following individual features: Movement type and layout, back plate number, movement support bracket and gong, suspension guard type, upper suspension bracket, escapement design, crutch design, pendulum support design, pendulum design, case design, case model number if known, bezel design and finish, dial design and features (size, type of numbers, type of hands, whether one or two pieces, what material, inscriptions and logos if present and other info), any dated item, patent numbers, and of course serial numbers.

Fundamentally all the above six areas of info is collected in my databases for each maker, of which I now have twenty-four compilations. I also have for each maker a "historical archive" where I compile all known information about that maker, quite a bit of which is linked or referenced to specific publications. There is also a patent database where I have compiled known patents of interest that are very useful for establishing dating anchor points.

The beauty of compiling all this information in a spreadsheet by serial number sequence, is that for those makers who followed sequential serial numbering you can CLEARLY see every major transition of design, patent feature, style, case model numbers and many other features. This also quickly sorts out the question of variance of serial numbering because of using different systems for different types of clock movements. One of the best examples I have is that I found that GB kept a separate set of serial numbers for their alarm clocks made at the Freiburg factory. Too lengthy to explain here but believe me it is so.

This also quickly sorts out the question of what was the beginning serial number for a given maker's clocks. Here are examples:

JUF: Serial numbers were used for the Harder patent clocks made from 1882 to 1888 (patent stamps only to June 1887), but discontinued for the next 20 years. In 1907, serial numbers were resumed at 50001, which happens to be very close to the total number of 400-Day clocks made by JUF up to that date. Sequential numbers were maintained until the end of 1922 at about 172000, then discontinued for the remainder of the company's history.

Ph. Hauck: Serial numbers started at less than 100 in 1903 (lowest number to date is 16) when they started production, continuing sequentially to stopping of production at the end of 1914, highest serial number to date 43900.

Kienzle: Serial numbers for their massiv 400-Day movements started at 100001 about 3rd quarter 1907, and continued uninterrupted to the sale of their business to Kern & Link in 1929, highest number to date 187250. Note that Kienzle made "special runs" of their massiv movements for third parties including Huber Uhren and Selsi, these all had low (five digits or less) serial numbers. Further, Huber patent lantern pinion clocks made for Kienzle had a separate set of serial numbers starting below 1000 in 1913 and finishing above 47250 in 1927 or early 1928 when Huber stopped manufacture of these movements.

Gustav Becker: Separate serial numbering was kept at Freiburg and Braunau. Freiburg had consecutive serial numbering for all types of clocks except alarm clocks and Amerikaner movements (no serial numbers for Freiburg), starting below 1000 around 1850-52 and continuing to just under 2510000 by mid-1925, when the old system was discontinued and separate numbers starting with "1" were set up for at least four types of clocks. These continued until the Freiburg factory shut down at the end of 1932. The Braunau factory started with numbers under 1000 in early 1888 and continued using consecutive serial numbers until mid-1925, the same time the Freiburg factory stopped them. The highest number for Braunau so far is 921794.

I also have serial number dating information developed for Anton Harder patent 400-Day clocks 1877-1887; W. Würth & Co (1903-1910); R. Schnekenburger from 1882 continuing to Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim Müller & Co. 1900-1913 as RSM logo, UMMC Lion following the October 1913 boiler explosion and continuing to 1932; Regulatorfabrik Germania 1871-1899; Uhrenfabrik Concordia 1881-1899; H. Endler 1865-1893+; A. Willmann 1871-1899; Eugéne Farcot Paris 1862-1890; Claude Grivolas Paris 400-Day clocks 1904-1914; Eureka London 1908-1914 (this one is messy); Gebrüder Junghans 400-Day clocks 1908-1914; Kieninger & Obergfell 400-Day clocks 1923-1939; Schlenker & Posner 400-Day clocks 1928-1939 (1938 & 1939 assembled by Kern & Söhne); Reutter Atmos 1930-1938; Atmos II 1939-1950; all other Atmos models from 1950 to present day; Konrad Mauch 1948-1950; Bulle-Clocks 1920-1954 in France and 1956-1970 in Brazil, and am developing others.

In all instances I look at movement types and designs and ask myself whether for a given maker some movements were made by others. I will discuss that point later as it merits its own topic or at least considerable expansion within the individual threads for a few makers.

When I quote an approximate manufacturing date for a given maker I do indicate the approximate accuracy as that can be quite different depending on the volume of data collected and many other factors. I also am quite ready to change my conclusions whenever I find new information that overrides previous conclusions. All my databases are subject to change and do get modified as new information comes available. Some are quite accurate, some are still only approximate but usually an order of magnitude better that what is commonly found on the Internet. I have published much of my 400-Day information only to the NAWCC 400-Day Chapter, the reason being that for the first several years I did this it was not uncommon to have frequent changes of data lines. It has been nearly 20 years since I started this effort, it is now time to decide which database gets made completely public. The Reutter Atmos data will likely be first, followed closely by Gustav Becker. After that will be several 400-Day clock makers and then the others that are relatively new on the block.

Finally, when I hear someone say that serial numbers don't make sense, I say "show me why". To my knowledge very few researchers have even attempted to compile sufficient data to be able to say that a given maker didn't follow any logic with their serial numbers. There is always the statement that French roulants can't be dated by serial number, but I've never seen proof of that. Au contraire, I have three French makers in my databases who definitively followed a sequential system, namely Eugéne Farcot, Claude Grivolas, and M. Favre-Bulle. I suspect that Henry Hatot also did but I don't have enough data to reach that conclusion.

I "do" know that many makers used separate serial number sequences for different movement designs or did other things that make it sometimes significantly difficult to reach any conclusion. On the other hand, with the proliferation of available data on the Internet, a dedicated researcher can compile dozens of examples of even rare clocks in a very short time frame. One good example is my Schnekenburger-UMMC database, that contained only 30 clocks just little over a year ago and now has nearly 300 examples with most of them coming from eBay. All it takes is dedication, patience, and perseverence to dig out the related info needed to corroborate such things as patent dates and corporate events such as you mentioned. It CAN be done!!
 
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Albra

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

John, I admire your hard work, but it is a pity that you do not realize that both Schnekenburger, as well Willmann have bought movements, but sold under their own logo. But unfortunately, we lack about both Schnekenburger, as with Willmann precise information, when, how long, how many movements have been purchased. For in this question does not help us your serial numbers,

And I criticize your ignorance towards clues, if one will point you to one of your errors.

albra
 

John Hubby

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

Albra, it may well be that Schnekenburger and Willmann bought movements from third parties; many makers did that.

With regard to Willmann, I don't have enough data yet to be able to see whether this can be verified empirically or not. My data now includes three movement types being a two-train weight driven with rack strike, a two train spring driven "French" style movement with count wheel on the back, and a two train 3/4 bim-bam spring driven movement with rack strike. I would think there should also be single train movements both weight and spring driven, however none have been identified so far. I will be having a very close look at the count wheel movements to see how they compare with known movements made by Carl Werner, especially following your comment regarding the one that I posted.

With regard to Schnekenburger, my data show that if the "French" style movements sold by RSM/UMMC were purchased from a third party, they were well integrated into the Schnekenburger serial numbering system, to include even the batch numbers as well as serial numbers. If this were not so, then the batch numbering system would fall apart and it has not. There are a few discontinuities in the batch correlation throughout the history of both Schnekenburger and the continuation of the business by UMMC; however these are minimal considering the number of clocks made and can most likely be accounted for in due course. I have been studying the Schnekenburger "French" movements, which represent about 45% of all the clocks documented between 1882 and 1914 (converted to sales that would be nearly 70,000 clocks!!!). At this point I do not think they were made by Werner, and due to the exceptionally large percentage of total sales it seems logical they would have been made by Schnekenburger/UMMC. However, that is not a closed chapter to the story as more research is needed including examination of actual movements.

I most certainly agree with you that purchase of third party movements must be taken into account. I do consider that for all the studies I have done. At this moment I have identified three makers of 400-Day clocks who did that; in two instances they kept a separate serial numbering system for the third party movements and it was relatively easy to distinguish between the two number systems; also the third party movements were themselves readily identified and could be dated from their makers' databases. That does "not" mean that the separate serial number systems cause the dating to be in error provided there are sufficient identifiers to tie down when the third party clocks were finished. The parameters I use to date the makers' own production are applied to the purchased movements in these instances and have until now proven reliable. The third maker purchased movements and complete 400-day clocks from three other makers; they did not use separate numbering so the dating of those has to go back to the suppliers' records which I have developed.

All this to say that I do take into full account the anomalies that you have so clearly identified while I am building the databases, and if I cannot find a correlation I don't try to force-fit something in order to justify a certain conclusion.
 

klokwiz

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

While cleaning the movment I found another trademark, here is a picture if it is of any value to the discussion. Joe 200552.jpg 200553.jpg
 

tarant

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

John Hubby;858678 said:
  • Note that the double lion logo for Willmann has not yet been found on any clock I have documented. Based on virtually the same logo being used by GB my judgement is that logo was used in the 1890's only, perhaps from about 1892 to 1897 or 1898.
15:00 to Yuma ;) All I have - photos found on net auction in 2010.

200592.jpg 200589.jpg 200590.jpg 200591.jpg

GB lions:
200595.jpg
 
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Albra

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

John, I realize that you can not distinguish a movement from Carl Werner from a movement of Willlmann. But still you claim this movement of Carl Werner was produced from 1887 to 1890 by Willmann. Where you get this information, you are hiding.

Just as you do not answer, as you are aware in dating the serial numbers of G. Becker of the great fire , or the explosion of the steam engine at the company Schnekenenburger. Both events led to lost sales and probably also to the dismissal of many workers.

John, but you do not need to respond. It is enough for me, if You give the results of your researches of Willmann, Schnekenburger or G. Becker to a Commission of the NAWCC. This Commission might decide whether your suspicions are sufficiently reliable or not. And I doubt, they are reliable.

albra
 

John Hubby

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

Joe, thanks for posting this very interesting discovery. This is an eccentric to adjust the depthing of the fly arbor pinion to the last gear in the strike train for which Willmann received design protection, "Gesetzlich Geschutzt" or "Legally Protected". I've not seen that innovation before but it could be useful to ensure the fly pinion leaves are perfectly engaged with the gear teeth so that the fly would start turning at the least impulse.

The question I would have to Albra about this is what year was this system of design protection started? I recall from discussions with Doug Stevenson that it was earlier than the 1880 date that I have estimated for when your clock was made, but if later that could change the dating.
 
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John Hubby

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

Albra, it seems I still have not explained clearly enough what is considered in my recording of data from actual clocks and how it is interpreted. I will respond to each of your points and trust this will help our understanding.
Albra;860057 said:
John, I realize that you can not distinguish a movement from Carl Werner from a movement of Willlmann. But still you claim this movement of Carl Werner was produced from 1887 to 1890 by Willmann. Where you get this information, you are hiding.
I am not hiding anything. I do not dispute that Werner may have made that movement and others like it, and not Willmann.

On the other hand, what if Willmann purchased "blank" movements from Werner and stamped both their own logo and a consecutive serial number from their own internal system at the time the clock was being finished? Would that not place the clocks within the same dating parameters as for their own production? As you know, Werner made and sold many movements with no markings whatever, not even serial numbers, so it is certainly possible that is what happened here.

I will agree with you that IF the serial number was applied by Werner, then my first estimate of production year would very likely be wrong.


Please understand the following:

1) My approach to developing a database for Willmann (or any other maker) first presumes that they used a sequential serial numbering system that was applied to all clocks they finished for sale, whether the movements were supplied by third parties such as Werner or from their own production.

2) I then compile a spreadsheet in serial number order that lists the 20 or more parameters that I record for each clock. Any discrepancy or anomaly will quickly become apparent when a surprisingly small number of clocks have been documented. Should that happen, I look closely at the characteristics of those clocks to find why there is a problem with the data. If it turns out the serial numbers for a particular type of movement are not in sequence with other types known to be the maker's own production, I move them to a separate worksheet so they can be treated uniquely.

A perfect example how this works is that I was able to find that GB maintained a separate set of serial numbers for their alarm clocks made in Freiburg, while all other serially numbered clocks made at that factory were numbered in sequence (note that I have confirmed that those serial numbers were assigned in relatively small batches to each type of clock). The alarm clock serial numbers indicate that the movements purchased from France for their initial sales were numbered sequentially and when they started their own production they just continued the series.

Also, my data for Schnekenburger/UMMC show that a consecutive serial numbering system was maintained throughout their production, incorporating Schnekenburger's innovative batch numbering. IF they did buy their French style movements from Werner or some other maker, those were perfectly integrated within their serial number system.

I mentioned earlier that I am studying the movements by Carl Werner posted in the thread that you started and making comparisons with that type of movement used by both Willmann and Schnekenburger/UMMC, and will be reporting later what I find.

Just as you do not answer, as you are aware in dating the serial numbers of G. Becker of the great fire, or the explosion of the steam engine at the company Schnekenenburger. Both events led to lost sales and probably also to the dismissal of many workers.
Albra, I clearly said in my earlier summary that I DO take those events into full account when compiling my data and preparing serial number dating information. I have adjusted both the G. Becker and the Schnekenburger data to account for those terrible events. In the instance of Schnekenburger/UMMC I used the information that you provided to me about the boiler explosion in 1913 to estimate how long they were out of production, and then how long it took to recover once production restarted. I have also made adjustments by estimating production loss during the financial troubles in 1896/7 and bankruptcy in 1900, among others.

John, but you do not need to respond. It is enough for me, if You give the results of your researches of Willmann, Schnekenburger or G. Becker to a Commission of the NAWCC. This Commission might decide whether your suspicions are sufficiently reliable or not. And I doubt, they are reliable.

albra
Albra, if we had such a Commission in the NAWCC then I would not have to be doing the research that I have engaged to do; someone else would have already accomplished the task. Also, please recall that I mentioned earlier that my Willmann research is still in the initial stages so there will very likely be changes as it progresses. My Schnekenburger research is more advanced but still needs more time to add documented examples to the data to ensure the conclusions reached are supported by actual observations. For both of these makers, should it turn out that the French style movements found with Willmann and RSM/UM logos were all made by a third party I will be happy to present that information and how it affects the dating of those makers' clocks.

For Gustav Becker, you recently provided information about when the Junghans takeover occurred that is now included in my data. That cleared up several questions about what happened and when both before the takeover and after Freiburg was closed, and also the information about what happened at the Braunau factory has proven enlightening and very useful. I wish to thank you for providing that data and for your support and encouragement. In the end, it is my personal goal to provide reliable and accurate information for all horological collectors and historians.
 

John Hubby

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

tarant;860056 said:
15:00 to Yuma ;) All I have - photos found on net auction in 2010.

200592.jpg 200589.jpg GB lions: 200595.jpg
Piotr, Thanks very much for these photos! As I noted earlier I had not seen any Willmann clock with their double lion logo stamp, now we know there is at least one. :thumb: I notice this movement is one of the French style rear countwheel designs that Albra and I are discussing, with serial number 62120. It is too bad there is no photo of the complete movement for comparison. Whether it was made by Willmann or by Werner we don't know, but if we presume the serial number and the double lion logo were both placed there by Willmann as I have suggested, then this clock can be dated about 1895 using my present data correlation.

That date fits well with the first known appearance of the GB version of this logo in late 1898, serial number 1359119. It isn't known exactly what happened for GB to effectively take over that logo in a modified form as seen on the GB clock serial number 1375701 that you have posted, but we have now eight examples of the GB version starting in 4th quarter 1898 as mentioned and continuing into the 2nd quarter 1899, serial number 1390387 not long before the merger with GB and others in June that year.

One point of interest with regard to the GB version, all eight of the examples found to date are stamped on a two-train spring driven time & strike movement that has rack striking. This same movement is also found with other GB logos including the GB Anchor and the circular GB Freiburg logo, both before and after the use of the GB Double Lion logo.
 

Kevin W.

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

Nice find Joe, i really like it, it has everything age and quality. I bet you looked a while to find one as nice as this one.
 

klokwiz

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

Kevin,

Thanks, yes indeed it has been years in the finding. My interest has been primarily shelf clocks wood and brass, but I have wanted one of these. It is ticking away as we chat.

Joe.
 

Albra

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Vienna Regulator Clock

tarant;860056 said:
15:00 to Yuma ;) All I have - photos found on net auction in 2010.

200592.jpg 200589.jpg 200590.jpg 200591.jpg

GB lions:
200595.jpg
Greetings Piotr,

You show another movement in the French style with the logo of the company Willmann- and even this movement was bought for my opinion of the company Carl Werner and was not manufactured by Willmann.

Since we know that Werner was willing to sell loose movements and even to stamp with the logo of the customers, it is to assume that also these related movements have the serial number by Werner and not by the customer.

But when and why might the company Willmann have been led to buy movements of Werner?

Unfortunately I don´t know any historical data for this question. But from the history of the company Willmann is known that Willmann on March 08, 1894 had to apply for bankruptcy proceedings (Source: See the "Lexikon", 3rd Edition, page 458)

It is therefore to assume that the company Willmann was closed for the duration of the bankruptcy proceedings and could not produce. But, in order not to lose customers, Willmann then purchased in this period movements in order to still can deliver.

As I said, this is just my guess, I have no evidence for this assumption, however.

Thanks for sharing the pics!

albra
 

John Hubby

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

Albra, thanks for your information. I also had considered the 1894 bankruptcy filing as being a time that production was likely reduced if not stopped, however according to the Lexikon Willmann was able to continue in business so it will not be easy to establish the effects of that event. One consideration of impact would be to look at how many clocks of Willmann design, specifically the two-weight time & strike wall regulator, were made from the earliest introduction of the Willmann crown logo with a clock dial in the crown, until the highest serial number recorded so far by the time of the June 1899 merger with GB and others. That logo was registered in 1891, but I think it possibly was used earlier before registration which was not an uncommon practice.

The lowest serial number I now have for a Willmann two-weight movement with the "Crown with Dial" logo is 39697. The highest serial number recorded for one of these same movement design clocks is 110662. This indicates that 70,965 clocks were made between say the beginning of 1890 to June 1899, an average of 7470 clocks per year were made. Interestingly, from start of production in second half 1871 until this lower serial number 39697 clock was made was about 18-1/2 years, indicating the average production was only about 2090 clocks per year. Is there information that would show that Willmann had a large expansion in the late 1880's, which later led to his bankruptcy in 1894? I had noticed also that in the Lexikon it mentions that Willmann by 1892 was the second largest maker in Freiburg after Gustav Becker, so there must have been some large expansion prior to that happening.

Since this thread being focused on Willmann contains some significant information, I am joining it with the "A. Willmann & Co. Regulator" thread that was started in December 2010, which contains very interesting early research into this company.
 

alanwah

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German Wall Clock - AW & Co

Hi All

I attach details of a clock that I understand has been in my family for a long time......my surname is german and it is thought that the clock was brought over from Niedersachsen (Scheesel/Sottrum area) when my ggggf emigrated to England. He married another german in the 1860's in Liverpool and worked there as a german pork butcher until he died in the 1900's.

I understand that the maker may be A. Willmann & Co but have not been able to confirm this......

any details of the details would help identify this and help fill in family history gaps.....

I remember that the the clock was kept in my grandmothers house in Everton in Liverpool when I was small.....although the house was broken into more than 6 times, the clock was never stolen......it was serviced about ten years ago when the clockmaker reported that "he had never seen such a dirty clock".....it keeps perfect time......interesting that the second hand rotates every 45 secs.....I wonder why

thank you 200774.jpg 200773.jpg
 

tarant

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

Only one photo, posted on KMZiZ forum in 2007. Undoubtedly weight driven movement, 38113. BTW which is the known lowest SN of the movement with the crown without the dial ?

200809.jpg
 

John Hubby

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

tarant;860602 said:
Only one photo, posted on KMZiZ forum in 2007. Undoubtedly weight driven movement, 38113. BTW which is the known lowest SN of the movement with the crown without the dial ?
Piotr, thanks for posting. This one fits neatly in the serial number series for this "Crown with Dial" logo.

The lowest serial number I have recorded for the crown without a dial is 13035, the highest is 30934. The first clock has the crown above the words "A W & Co Freiburg I. Schl.", all stamped at the upper left corner of the back plate. The later one has only the crown without a dial, stamped in the same position as the logo with the dial found on the movement you posted here.

The next lower serial number I have recorded below 13035 is 9531; that movement has only the letters "A. W. & Co." stamped at the lower center of the back plate in the same position as the crown on the movement you posted.
 

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Re: German Wall Clock - AW & Co

alanwah;860601 said:
Hi All

I attach details of a clock that I understand has been in my family for a long time......my surname is german and it is thought that the clock was brought over from Niedersachsen (Scheesel/Sottrum area) when my ggggf emigrated to England. He married another german in the 1860's in Liverpool and worked there as a german pork butcher until he died in the 1900's.

I understand that the maker may be A. Willmann & Co but have not been able to confirm this......

any details of the details would help identify this and help fill in family history gaps.....

I remember that the the clock was kept in my grandmothers house in Everton in Liverpool when I was small.....although the house was broken into more than 6 times, the clock was never stolen......it was serviced about ten years ago when the clockmaker reported that "he had never seen such a dirty clock".....it keeps perfect time......interesting that the second hand rotates every 45 secs.....I wonder why

thank you
Alanwah, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos of your family heirloom clock. The logo sketch you drew confirms that it was made by A. Willmann & Co., and the serial number would place it having been made about 1879. It is also now the lowest serial number documented with the Willmann logo of a crown without a clock dial; i had just posted that serial number 13035 was the lowest. The date of 1879 is approximate and could be a year or two either way. If you have any photos of the back of the movement we would certainly like to see them so more complete documentation can be provided.

Tarant has provided information why the seconds hand turns in 45 seconds, as he says that was expediency to show something moving even if it didn't show correct seconds.

A. Willman & Co. was founded in 1871 in Freiburg, Silesia, by persons who had previously worked for Gustav Becker who was also located in the same town. Willmann was merged with Becker and five other companies in June 1899, when the original Willmann company ceased to exist. My records show they made about 111,000 clocks while they were in operation.
 
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alanwah

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

Hi John

I have just posted an enquiry re my Willman clock......serial number is 12207.......was referred to this thread following my enquiry yesterday and amazed at the discussions and research that has gone on....didn't even know until today that Freiburg is now in Poland and named Swiebodzice....there are other Freiburgs in Germany as you will know.....

I will add some photos for the record in my next post...and some history of the clock as I know it......

Alan
 

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Re: German Wall Clock - AW & Co

Alan,

nice to see another willmann clock. Please post some full view photos so we can see the rest of your case. Interesting your observation of the seconds bit. Mine seemed odd to me also but didn't put two and two together til reading your post, but my clock does the same thing. wondered why i couldn't sycronize the thing to my watch.

Joe.
 

alanwah

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Re: German Wall Clock - AW & Co

Hi

sorry John just found this reply having posted a reply to you to the thread identified by Pietr.....interesting if you have any idea how many of the 111000 clocks are still in existence......

The date of around 1879 has thrown me now at my understanding was that the clock was perhaps brought over from Germany when forbears came to Liverpool from NW Germany....they (both born in Germany) married in the 1860s in Liverpool....so that could not be the case....I guess some other family member or relative could have joined them later.......or could a person buy such a clock in England in 1879?......

will add detail photos later....

Thanks

Alan
 

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Re: German Wall Clock - AW & Co

alanwah;860917 said:
Hi

sorry John just found this reply having posted a reply to you to the thread identified by Pietr.....interesting if you have any idea how many of the 111000 clocks are still in existence......

The date of around 1879 has thrown me now at my understanding was that the clock was perhaps brought over from Germany when forbears came to Liverpool from NW Germany....they (both born in Germany) married in the 1860s in Liverpool....so that could not be the case....I guess some other family member or relative could have joined them later.......or could a person buy such a clock in England in 1879?......

will add detail photos later....

Thanks Alan
Alan, I just noticed your post in the "A. Willmann & Co. Regulator" thread and will combine my reply here in response to that as well as your message here.

With regard to how many of the 111,000 Willmann clocks are still with us, I really have no idea. For some makers I can make an educated guess by using the number of clocks recorded in a database compared to the number that were made presuming serial number information is consistent, and then use statistical techniques to make a guess. However, for Willmann I am still in the early stages of data collection and don't yet have a sample large enough to do that.

One thing we know for certain is that your clock could not have been made before mid-1871 when the company was founded. Our data show that the logo stamped on your movement was first used some time after serial number 9531 and that Willmann production in that time period has been estimated at about 1,700 clocks per year. That would show the earlier clock made in 1876 +/- and your clock made in 1878-1879.

Your forebears were already in England in the 1860's when they were married and your clock was made about 10-13 years later, so they could not have brought it with them from Germany before they were married. It could have been purchased in Germany by a relative or friend and brought to England, or it could have been purchased by your forebears in England. There most certainly was trade between Germany and England in that time, including clocks by various makers such as Gustav Becker, Lenzkirch, and others. We know for fact that clocks were exported to England by Schatz & Wintermantel from 1881 and to the U.S. by 1883. Further, there is little doubt that many if not most of the major German makers were either exporting directly or via traders and other third parties throughout the last half of the 19th century.

However your clock made its way to England and into the hands of your forebears, it is a wonderful story that it has remained in the family almost certainly since it was new. We will look forward to hearing more of your story about its provenance and how it became your clock in due course, as well as seeing more detailed photos when you have them posted.

I am merging this thread with the "A. Willmann & Co. Regulator" thread for archival and continued discussion.
 

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Re: Anyone recognise this Vienna clock maker?

barrance;842518 said:
I ve taken some photographs of the support bracket and some of the movement did you want some frontal ones to John?
Barrance, thanks very much for the additional movement and support bracket photos. If you have one of the front of the movement it will be good to see that so we can have a good idea of the rack strike mechanism.

I'm merging this thread with the "A. Willmann & Co. Regulator" thread for archival and continued discussion. Thanks to all for your participation!
 

alanwah

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

Hi

A follow up with a few photos of this Willman clock...not much more to add re provenance other than I remember it always hanging on the parlour wall in Liverpool (from 1950s)...must have been from there for a long while before though...the house is no longer there... 3 Thirlmere Road in Everton.....the site is a green park area. Originally the family were in the docklands area of Liverpool (Athol Street) mid 1800s to 1900s.....sugarbakers i.e.) sugar factory workers......and particularly german pork butchers for many years......

the clock case is veneered in part, the top is loose and fits into slots....looks pretty basic build.......nice glass looks original....the bottom of the clockcase has a couple of marks where the weights have dropped and dented the wood...probably not an uncommon occurrence.....chimes on the half-hour.....there is a lever to pull to the right side of the clock face which chimes the last hour...the attached wire and bead on this lever are not original...

note.....on the back below the inscription there is a no "7"......the number "12207" is directly below the crown.....

from the photos you will see that the condition of the face rim is poor in parts, very thin metal....apologies as it was also dusty when I took the photos......the metal (edge and inner circle) has been gilded I think (by my father).....not sure what the base metal is...a couple of the pics are slightly out of focus - apologies.....

please ask if anything more is of interest

Alan

201056.jpg 201057.jpg 201058.jpg 201059.jpg 201060.jpg 201061.jpg 201062.jpg 201063.jpg
 

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

Alan, thanks very much for posting the additional photos of your clock. That helps a lot for us to see any differences from earlier or later clocks.

For example, the Willmann crown logo on your clock is stamped at the lower center of the back plate, with the serial number under the crown and then the name "A. Willmann & Co. Freiburg i. Schles" under the serial number. So far this is the only example documented with that format. The next examples in my data starting with serial number 13035 have the crown stamped at the upper left corner of the back plate with the Willmann/Freiburg name under the crown and then the serial number under the name. Examples to date through serial number 25098 have that configuration. All later examples documented so far have the logos stamped at the lower center with the serial number stamped under the logo.

Your clock has features that have been found to be typical "Willmann" parts or designs. These include:
  • The hands with your clock are the elegant design found with over 75% of all the Willmann logo clocks documented. These hands seem exclusive to Willmann. Should anyone see this hand design with any other maker's clocks please post here for info and comparison.
  • The dial design with your clock has been found so far with over 75% of all weight driven clocks documented, from the earliest to the latest. The other weight driven clocks have fancier dials with gilt and embossed centers and other features.
  • The pendulum crutch is the same as found on all weight driven movements documented to date, with the small triangular cut-out at the bottom end just above the horizontal rating rating screw.
  • The anchor pivot bridge that supports the anchor arbor and crutch is the same design as found so far on all weight driven clocks bearing the Willmann logo.

You have an excellent example of early Willmann production and one that has family provenance as well. Thanks again for posting it here, should you need advice regarding operation or problems with your clock, please post them in our "Clock Repair" forum. A world of expertise visits that forum every day.
 

alanwah

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

Hi John

a couple of minor points.....stamp is "freiburg i schl" rather than "freiburg i schles"

there is a number "7" below the stamp main stamp marks in the centre......wonder what the significance is?

also 3 further photos for the record

Regards

Alan

201273.jpg 201274.jpg 201275.jpg
 

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulators

alanwah;861725 said:
Hi John

a couple of minor points.....stamp is "freiburg i schl" rather than "freiburg i schles"

there is a number "7" below the stamp main stamp marks in the centre......wonder what the significance is?

also 3 further photos for the record. Regards Alan
Alan, thanks for pointing out the logo spelling discrepancy. I've checked my database and that correction was made where appropriate.

I think the "7" is a production match mark, where they have stamped the last digit of the serial number not only on the back plate but on other locations. I suspect if you check the front of the movement there will also be a 7 stamped at the bottom center of the front plate. The same number may be stamped on gears and other parts as well. If you have an opportunity to check this please let us know what you find.

Thanks for the added photos, much appreciated!
 
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tarant

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

I'd like to post here interesting clock, discussed on KMZiZ forum. Is this early Willmann ? This is time only weight driven clock with the SN 14827. Hands, bracket are matching. Quite unusual is the pendulum crutch. This screw with the counterweight is pushing the tinplate on the pendulum rod (photos forum colleague FRANK).
201363.jpg 201364.jpg 201367.jpg 201369.jpg 201370.jpg 201365.jpg 201366.jpg 201368.jpg

Few years ago I've seen clock with identical crutch system and probably made by this same producer (SN 2126). Unfortunately this clock was tranformed into fake biedermeier astronomical regulator :( ...

201373.jpg 201372.jpg 201371.jpg 201374.jpg
 

f.webster

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

I was asked to chime in with some images from a post I did in 2011. This is a monster goose. I will post images of serial number and trade marks from the back plate , and a stamp I found hiding on the front plate. An image of the front plate might help you understand where I found that additional mark. Hope this helps and gets some chatter going.

203216.jpg 203217.jpg 203218.jpg 203219.jpg 203220.jpg
 

Jmeechie

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

Hello everyone,

First let let me start by saying I apologize for the poor quality pictures. I always have this problem when using my IPad and having sideways issues!

I recently picked up this lovely German 2 weight regulator off of Craigslist. The case needs a good cleaning and polish along with re glueing a loose top block, I have the all the pieces.

The movement is marked Gesetzuch Geschutzt A W & Co around the front side pivot hole for the chime fan/regulator. With a little research I believe this stands for registered A. Willmann & Co. It has maintaining power and is a nicely finished movement. The serial number on the movement is 63415.

I'm curious about the age of this clock and if this is a late run for this company since the mounting bracket is plain and there is no company logo on the plates besides what's written around the one pivot hole?

Hope this info helps with the research and I will work on better pictures if needed once I get her all polished up and out of my workshop.

Cheers,
James 206029.jpg 206036.jpg 206037.jpg 206038.jpg 206039.jpg 206040.jpg 206041.jpg
 

John Hubby

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

tarant;861857 said:
I'd like to post here interesting clock, discussed on KMZiZ forum. Is this early Willmann ? This is time only weight driven clock with the SN 14827. Hands, bracket are matching. Quite unusual is the pendulum crutch. This screw with the counterweight is pushing the tinplate on the pendulum rod (photos forum colleague FRANK).

Few years ago I've seen clock with identical crutch system and probably made by this same producer (SN 2126). Unfortunately this clock was tranformed into fake biedermeier astronomical regulator :( ...
Piotr, thanks for posting these interesting clocks. I don't know if we can classify these as made by Willmann, the main problem being we don't have any other time-only weight driven movements in our database until much later. Actually there is only one, serial number 82103, and even it doesn't have a Willmann logo but does have all of the typical characteristics of other Willmann clocks including a center hole in the back plate, a lozenge-shape anchor pivot bridge, a "triangle" open one-piece pendulum crutch, and "Willmann" style Vienna hands.

These movements have a kind of gravity impulse system on the pendulum crutch, the six-pointed star providing coarse adjustment for beat and the threaded screw the fine adjustment. I've not seen this design before but it is quite interesting.

I have recorded these two clocks in my Willmann database but with a question mark, if we should find one with a Willmann logo that would certainly change the conclusion.
 

tarant

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

John Hubby;873991 said:
Actually there is only one, serial number 82103, and even it doesn't have a Willmann logo but does have all of the typical characteristics of other Willmann clocks including a center hole in the back plate, a lozenge-shape anchor pivot bridge, a "triangle" open one-piece pendulum crutch, and "Willmann" style Vienna hands.
This one? But this is 82403. Another ?
206100.jpg 206094.jpg 206095.jpg 206096.jpg 206097.jpg 206098.jpg 206099.jpg
 

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Re: A. Willman & Co. Regulator

tarant;874001 said:
This one? But this is 82403. Another ?
Piotr, thanks for the correction, the number I wrote was a typo and the "1" should be a "4". You have stated the correct serial number.
 

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Re: German movement id.

blindraccoon;874897 said:
Here's a Willman spring driven movement with just the name stamp. btw, beautiful Willman regulator you got there.
Thanks much for posting the photos of your Willmann movement. It would be appreciated if you could also post a photo of the dial and hands, as they usually are unique to Willmann and would add to the documentary material for your movement.

Based on the serial number your movement was made in 1877.
 

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Re: German movement id.

blindraccoon;874897 said:
Here's a Willman spring driven movement with just the name stamp. btw, beautiful Willman regulator you got there.
John- do you realy think this movement in French design was made by Willmann? And it was made in 1877?

albra
 

blindraccoon

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Re: German movement id.

John Hubby;876927 said:
Thanks much for posting the photos of your Willmann movement. It would be appreciated if you could also post a photo of the dial and hands, as they usually are unique to Willmann and would add to the documentary material for your movement.

Based on the serial number your movement was made in 1877.
Thank you John. Geez, I am very surprised that the movement dates back that far. I have attached a photo of the dial, full view, and lower view~ 207488.jpg 207489.jpg 207490.jpg
 
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Albra

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Re: German movement id.

blindraccoon;874897 said:
Here's a Willman spring driven movement with just the name stamp. btw, beautiful Willman regulator you got there.
Blindraccoon your movement is in French design and Willmann didn´t make this kind of movements. These movements were made in Black Forest by different factories like Lenzkirch, C.Werner, Kienzle, Bäuerle and others.



But when and why did Willmann relate BF-movements: We have no sources, but we know that Willmann in 1894 had to declare bankrupty procedings. Willmann wasn´t closed, but most likely could not produce. But not to lose any customers, these BF-movements were bought and mounted in Willmann cases.

That means, your clock might be made about 1895.

albra
 

tarant

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Re: German movement id.

Slightly decadent eclectic form of the case appears to confirm this...
 
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Jmeechie

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Re: German movement id.

Hello John,

i posted several weeks weeks ago pictures of my clock and movement and was wondering if you had a chance to view my post yet?

cheers,
James
 

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blindraccoon

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Re: German movement id.

blindraccoon;878389 said:
tarant Slightly decadent eclectic form of the case appears to confirm this...
[/QUOTE]

Hi Tarant, Skip my last reply- I must have inadvertently hit post reply... could you please elaborate on 'eclectic form' as it pertains to the Willmann case. I know what eclectic means but I don't how it relates to the clock case. So you concur with Albra's speculation that Willmann purchased French style serial numbered movements from other factories in the Black Forest region to keep afloat at a time when the company was involved in bankruptcy proceedings.
 

tarant

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Re: German movement id.

In Europe transitional style cases are often called "eclectic". This style at the end of century lost IMO classical proportions. Cases were often too wide, columns too thick, tops too large, with strange details etc. That's why I said "decadent" ;)

Little gallery of GB clocks with transitional / eclectic cases. The style worsens, IMO of course :)

1872
207736.jpg

1886
207740.jpg

1894
207739.jpg


1895
207738.jpg

1897
207737.jpg

1907
207741.jpg
 
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Albra

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Re: German movement id.

Piotr, thank you very much for the pics of these Willmann cases! We all recognize the slow development of the design. Realy interesting!

Do you know, whether there was a development in Willmann-movements as well? (design, facturing-methods etc.)

Thanks again!

albra
 

tarant

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Re: German movement id.

Albra, those are Gustav Becker (GB) clocks. It was the illustration about deterioration of the style, a little OT. It's not easy to show even such small collection of Willmann weight driven clocks.
 

blindraccoon

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Re: German movement id.

tarant;878542 said:
In Europe transitional style cases are often called "eclectic". This style at the end of century lost IMO classical proportions. Cases were often too wide, columns too thick, tops too large, with strange details etc. That's why I said "decadent" ;)

Little gallery of GB clocks with transitional / eclectic cases. The style worsens, IMO of course :)

1872
207736.jpg

1886
207740.jpg

1894
207739.jpg


1895
207738.jpg

1897
207737.jpg

1907
207741.jpg
Oh, okay I understand now... an eclectic/transitional clock case is equivalent to 'bad taste', in your opinion :D
 
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