A.Willmann & Co Regulators

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by MQ32shooter, Dec 3, 2008.

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  1. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    I have a 2 weight German clock that has a "Crown" stamped on the movement. It actually looks like there is a dial in the upper portion of the crown. Any ideas as to the maker?
     
  2. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Re: German movement id.

    Is the crown the only marking in the logo? A picture of it would be helpful in making an identification. Gustav Becker at some point used a crown with a clock, but the logo I have seen also had an anchor descending from the crown and had the initials GB.
     
  3. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Re: German movement id.

    Here ya go Steve. Hope this helps. 23996.jpg
     
  4. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: German movement id.

    It's from one of the major, so-called "Freiburger" (in the Freiburg in what was then Silesia) "Regulator factories," A. Willmann & Co. There's been several postings here about them. I've a nice ad here somewhere...well, will put it up in a minute. Or so.
     
  5. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: German movement id.

    Here goes (below) from an 1898 German clockmakers' journal. If you look carefully, in the lower right of the drawing there's a horse-drawn cart in front of the main door with -- amazing coincidence -- your clock aboard! 23998.jpg
     
  6. MQ32shooter

    MQ32shooter Registered User
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    Re: German movement id.

    Thanks zerpernick. Some of you guys on this board amaze me with their knowledge and resources. Appreciate the help.
     
  7. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Re: German movement id.

    It's hard to get a German movement by Zep. Even when he can't definitely ID one, he provides a mountain on good info that makes you feel like he had put his finger on it.
     
  8. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: German movement id.

    Blush :)
    You're most kind, Steven.

    Z.
     
  9. JB

    JB Registered User
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    Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Hi all, I picked up two Vienna's today.
    I'm interested in learning more about this one.
    The back of the movement is marked Non Plus Ultra inside a circle of leaves.
    The movement holder is labeled Made in Germany.
    I found the snail in an envelope at the bottom of the case so it won't stop striking. Diffidently it needs some attention and a good cleaning , it's been resting on it's back for quite some time and has collected some dust.
    But currently it is working. 47792.jpg 47793.jpg 47794.jpg 47795.jpg 47796.jpg
     
  10. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    I'd suppose this the newer of the two. Styling is First Baroque and last quarter probably. I've heard/read/seen this logo before. Alas have not researched it. Mebbe th' ZEPPER'll strike in (no chimes). Looks very tight - all seems to fit and match as an original would. Nothing here strains my eyes or draws attention such as mismatches or non original.
    In all - very nice acq! Don't forget to add it to, "Post Your Weight . . . "
    CONGRATS.
     
  11. tarant

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    A. Willmann & Co, Freiburg (Swiebodzice), 1871 - 1903 (?), probably taken by E.R. Schlenker from Schwenningen.
     
  12. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Just a little aside on the Latin phrase, "non (or ne) plus ultra", that it translates to, "perfection" or "the utmost" - a pinnacle of sorts.
     
  13. JB

    JB Registered User
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Spent some time cleaning the case and glass. While actually my wife cleaned the glass:rolleyes:, said i wasn't doing it right:D Its old and wavy, so thats good.
    I did a search on the sight and found the reference to A. Willmann and his subsequent merger with Gustav Becker.
    The snail was an easy fix. Glad i found it. I'll study the movement awhile before I take it apart and clean it.
    It has green nylon line on it now. What is preferred?

    Non Plus Ultra sounded to me like motor oil or such. Thanks for the translation Scottie 47852.jpg 47853.jpg
     
  14. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    JB, I use black braided nylon fishing line on mine.
     
  15. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Same here; Masquerading and re-packaged as dial cord for old radios - probly fishing line. It's a strong black cord with a nylon central filament.
     
  16. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Nice find JB.Is it your only Vienna? I would like one some day.
    Your wife actually helped in cleaning your clock.My wife wont even dust mine.;)
     
  17. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Largely because of their connection with VFU/Gustav Becker, Willmann have had attention recently through the efforts of, for example, Adam Mroziuk, Hans-Heinrich Schmid, and John Hubby. Believe that John is collecting data on Willmann's clocks, in fact.

    Both of these ads (below) have been posted here before -- the smaller is from 1882 and the larger from 1898. Yet am fond of the factory view. Then too, if Joe looks closely, he can see his clock being loaded onto a wagon.....

    Regards,
    Zep 47884.jpg 47885.jpg
     
  18. John Hubby

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    JB, what is the full serial number? I can only see the first and last three digits. Also, could you post a clear photo of the logo? As Zep mentions I am compiling data on Willmann and this one is a fairly early example that I would like to document. Thanks in advance for your help!
     
  19. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Hi Zep the clock in the advertiesement, far left is a ringer for my avatar,:)
     
  20. JB

    JB Registered User
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    It is very close Kevin.

    I do see it Zip:) Thanks for the photos of the ads

    Mr. Hubby , the full serial # is 36751.
    Here are some better pics .
    Glad I could help 47949.jpg 47950.jpg 47951.jpg 47952.jpg
     
  21. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Kevin and all --

    I'd once assumed, no doubt naively, that the illustrations of clocks in manufacturers' ads in the 1880s and 1890s were of their actual clocks. There were however firms that sold cliches (in the printing sense) to the trade. And it's not uncommon to find even some of the Freiburg "regulator factories" using these cliches in ads in German clockmakers' journals.

    An article about these "cliches for clockmakers" is forthcoming in CLOCKS magazine. But ths particular Willmann ad had caught my attention because the illustration on the left (noted by Kevin, above) is very much like one offered by a firm that sold cliches (see below). There are some small differences, for instance, the shading on the bobs.

    It's possible of course that the firm that made and sold the cliches was inspired, so to speak, by Willmann's illustration.

    Regards,
    Zep 47982.jpg
     
  22. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Joe, thanks for the serial number. I don't have enough data yet to give an exact year of manufacture but believe your clock was made in the mid-1880's based on the dial design and movement features that were popular around that time.
     
  23. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    The "made in Germany" on the mounting bracket would most likely date it to after the McKinley Tariff Act of 1890 which set forth the US requirement that all manufactures seeking entry be marked with the country of origin, in English.
     
  24. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Zep, thanks for the reminder. Somewhere in my list of "things to remember when documenting stuff" I have earlier messages of yours discussing this point; got overlooked here.
    So, the clock was more likely early to mid-1890's instead of mid-1880's. Which raises an interesting point about Willmann production. According to the Lexikon they were founded in 1871, with the last mention of activity being 1903 even though they were taken over by E. R. Schlenker about 1900. This is a quite different story to the one in Kochmann that says they were part of the VFU merger in 1899.

    If this clock was made in the early 1890's, and Willman used sequential serial numbers on their clocks it would indicate Willmann made about 2000 clocks per year from founding in 1871 to the early 1890's. We don't know this for certain so the actual production could have been higher.

    I also have documented a clock with serial number 110662 that would not have been made later than 1903(?), indicating that an additional 70,000+ clocks were made in about 10-12 years or say 6500 clocks per year. While this is a large number, it is only about 10% as many as Gustav Becker was making in the same period. in the Lexikon it also mentions that Willmann were the second largest manufacturer in Freiburg after Becker and were a "serious competitor". However, based on number of clocks made it seems to me they were not really in the same game. Quality-wise, yes. Number-wise, no.
     
  25. JB

    JB Registered User
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Would it not have been easier to stamp the back of the case?

    Mr. Hubby , just for your notes, while in the midst of cleaning the movement i noticed the back of the crutch has the serial number scribed in it. Maybe this is quite common, but I thought I would let you know.
     
  26. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Regarding where the "Made in Germany" was placed, that varied all over the place. I have clocks documented from the 1890's and later with this found on movement back plates, gong mounts, dials, case backs, etc. As far as I know there was no requirement where the words were placed.

    I've seen very few clocks with the serial number scribed on the crutch, so I don't really know how frequently this was done or even whether it was done in the factory. The only clocks I have seen where something like this is common is on disc pendulums for 400-Day clocks, especially Gustav Becker. About 90% of Becker pendulums have the serial number scribed on the bottom. Other disc pendulum clocks more commonly had the serial number stamped in the bottom of the disc.
     
  27. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: Non Plus Ultra Vienna

    Joe --

    Requirements changed over the years, becoming increasingly specific, not to say increasingly wordy. So it's a question of what when. Then too, there's a great deal of false information about. For instance, it's commonly claimed that at some point "made in Germany" was required as opposed to just "Germany."

    In any case, the November 2009 issue of CLOCKS magazine had the first part of a two-part article on such. It also identifies actual legislation and offers extracts. Below, for instance, is one figure that contrasts requirements from the 1909 and 1913 tariff acts.

    Regards,
    Zep 48233.jpg
     
  28. G30071

    G30071 Registered User

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    A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Hi All!
    A.W. & Co. trademark
    Freiburg/Silesia Germany Manufacturer and Wholesaler of Clocks

    Does anyone have a photo or info of this clock as it should be?

    Thanks!
    G300 78898.jpg 78899.jpg 78900.jpg 78901.jpg 78902.jpg
     
  29. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    G3,

    Welcome to the message board.

    You have a style of clock sometimes known as a "Berliner" and sometimes known as a "free swinger".

    You ask for information "as the clock should be", as if something is missing or not right, but I believe the clock is complete as the day it came out of the factory. Is there something more specific that you are requesting?

    If you use the search function, keyword "Willmann", you will find some useful information on that company.

    Regards.
     
  30. G30071

    G30071 Registered User

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Thanks !
    There is no top element.
    sample:
    78904.jpg 78903.jpg 78905.jpg

    Regards
    G300
     
  31. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    G,

    Thanks for the clarification.

    Not all free swingers had tops to them. If there are holes for finials, etc. then this would indicate your clock did have a top to it.

    Willmann was not a big producer of clocks, so your request might not be answered.

    On the other hand, this board is, without question, the best place to ask the question.

    Regards.
     
  32. G30071

    G30071 Registered User

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    The top was, it is lost at a fire...
    =)

    Thanks!
    G300
     
  33. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    G300 -- I'm not aware of any publicly available Willmann catalogues. You might consider a for-the-time-being finishing. Will however attach an ad from 1898 in case you haven't seen one from a trade journal for the firm. Zepernick 78995.jpg
     
  34. G30071

    G30071 Registered User

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    zepernick,
    Thanks, can eat a photo similar this master?
     
  35. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Zep, have seen this ad before but somehow didn't latch onto the logo in the lower right corner . . two lions with a clock between . . and recalling that GB used a virtually identical logo at the same time. My data show GB used this only in 1898-1899, the last usage I have recorded being before the merger in mid-1899.

    I've attached a photo of one from a GB clock made in 1898. Any idea about how both Willmann and GB came to have the same logo? I also recall that you found that Willmann did "not" become part of VFU in 1899 as reported by Kochmann, so maybe some kind of deal was made re the logo? In any event I've not yet seen it on a clock that could be identified as a Willmann. 79044.jpg
     
  36. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #36 zepernick, Dec 19, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    John --

    Will come back to these TMs in a minute. And there were two (oh yes) Willmann firms in Freiburg/Schl., the one that went together with GB into VFU, and the one that didn't. But let me fumble around a minute to see where that horostuff is stuck. Or perhaps, be stuck. :)

    Regards
    Zep
    -> posts merged by system <-
    G300 --

    There were so many of these "tops" made in so many variations that I don't think you need to worry about an exact match. What is important is getting the finials and whatever you decide to put "on top of the top" to be of oak and the same color.

    Below are some tops from a couple of catalogues from about the same time. Sorry that they're not too clear. Still, they should give some idea of what one for yours might look like. It would be very nice if you couid match that six-petal wood flower design (just above the pendulum) on yours, whether in the center of the block or as, say, a half-circle up on top with a finial above.

    In any case, please let us know what you decide. We love photos!

    Regards
    Zep 79045.jpg 79046.jpg 79047.jpg 79048.jpg 79049.jpg 79050.jpg
     
  37. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #37 zepernick, Dec 19, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2010
    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Greetings John,

    Well, this is what we can find at the moment. I'll attach 7 illustrations below. The first four are in chonological order.

    The first is just an ad from the 1901 DUZ for A. Willmann & Co. So we know a firm by that name existed then and there.

    The second, also from the 1901 DUZ, but a bit later (I can date each exactly if you need it) is from a fellow who states that the "new" A. Willmann & Co. firm (that has evidently had a circular) is not the "old" firm that he represented (as a wholesaler) until it became part of VFU/GB. And he names the 6 firms that make up VFU/GB. The "old" Willmann firm remains part of VFU/GB and customers, etc.

    The third, also from a 1901 DUZ, just shows that one of the large Freiburg wholesalers was selling clocks from A. Willmann & Co.

    Four, DUZ 1901, is nifty indeed. The owner of the firm A. Willmann & Co, Paul Kappler, who is (by gum) a former Director of VFU published this long response. He notes he bought the firm (A.W&Co) in 1894 and ran it (technically as well) until 1899. And Herr Saiber hadn't the least to do with its success during this time. The firm was NOT taken over by VFU. Rather, it was liquidated on 15 May and on 25 May reentered (as a firm) for K and Albert Willmann with AW later stepping out so that K opened business August 1. So no one else has a legal or moral right, etc. That S is trying to claim that K's firm is part of VFU shows that K's A. Willmann & Co. made the best clocks of any of the firms he mentioned and still does, etc.

    The fifth is the registration in 1900 of the Gustav Becker trademark. The Willmann and VFU TMs aren't exactly the same (e.g. the Willmann TM didn't have the GB) but did have something very small written in the base.

    The sixth, from the DUZ, shows that they're still around in 1902.

    And the seventh is an ad in the 1904 Adreßbuch from E.R. Schlenker that has two locations. The same Adreßbuch still has the TM (as in the first clipping below) listed to A. Willmann & Co. of Freiburg but with E.R. Schlenker owner.

    When the change from Kappler to E.R. Schlenker occured I don't know.

    Regards
    Zep 79068.jpg 79069.jpg 79070.jpg 79071.jpg 79072.jpg 79073.jpg 66139.jpg
     
  38. G30071

    G30071 Registered User

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Thanks for the given information.
    Very interesting!
    Publish please a photo of similar watch of style "free swinger" A.Willman & Co ?

    ok! =)
     
  39. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Sorry, but I don't have any photos of a Willmann clock that's similar to yours. Zep
     
  40. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Hi Zep,

    Very interesting horo-thrilling stuff about A.W&Co =)) How do you think is it possible to date that clocks according to movement serial number?

    BR,
    Oleg
     
  41. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Greetings Oleg --

    Well, not yet :), But John Hubby I believe is collecting data on several of these so-called Freiburger regulator manufacturers, with the idea of someday being able to set up dating parameters.

    Then again, as the original A. Willmann & Co. only existed for 17 years, we can offer a relatively narrow range to start with.

    Regards
    Zep
     
  42. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Zep and Oleg, as of today I have only a total of 23 clocks documented that were made by "Willmann", with serial numbers ranging from low four digits to over 110,000, 21 of them with numbers below 40,000. With the info that Zep has now uncovered regarding company history (amazing!!), I now have some big questions to answer:

    1) Did the reconstituted Willmann company continue to operate in the same factory that the original company used?

    2) Whether it did or not, did the "new" Willmann continue with the serial number sequence that was being used by the original company or did they start a new series?

    3) Did the "new" Willmann continue to use any of the logos that were used by the original company? None of those appearing in the 1898 ad show up in the 1901 notices, and it appears that the double lion (with changes) was taken over by or assigned to GB since they registered it in early 1900 (GB had already used it since mid-1898). Interestingly enough I have not found any examples of it being used after the registration date.

    4) Did the "new" Willmann use only the "Non Plus Ultra" logo? It isn't present in the 1898 ad of the original company but is in all the 1901 material.

    If the original Willmann used only the logos in the 1898 ad and the "new" Willman only the Non Plus Ultra logo, the task for identification becomes much easier. If there is overlap, the transition becomes somewhat more difficult to identify.

    The most interesting part of this is the apparent fact that Willmann did NOT become part of the VFU merger.
     
  43. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Greetings John --

    My reading of this bit of historical horo-drama is that A. Willmann & Co. was, without a doubt, absorbed into VFU. What apparently happened is that Kappler pulled a legal quickie with the name.

    That the "original firm" (let's call it AWC/I) was absorbed is indicated in e.g. that DUZ article from 15 September 1899 (below). Indeed, Kappler was one of the three VFU Directors, the other two being Beckers.

    The article also seems to indicate that, as part of the legal process for the formation of VFU, the former firms would be liquidated as firms. And here we would need someone who would know the German process at this time.

    But then after AWC/I was liquidated as a firm, Kappler picks up the name just a little later for AWC/II after he quit as a VFU Director. Or he quit then...

    Somewhere in your files there's a copy of an email that Adam M. sent to us both on June 2, 2005 saying that he had a VFU letterhead from 1903 that has the names of the firms that were merged into VFU. AWC was included.

    But where it's messy is what happened among VFU, Kappler, and E.R. Schlenker. Was there a court case about the name? Did VFU pay off Kappler or Schlenker? There must be legal records about this between 1899 and 1904 -- and changes in ownership would have been published.

    As a by-the-way:

    The one DUZ article (below) is also interesting as it gives the three names of the new company before, that is, VFU. At first it was the Aktiengesellschaft für Uhrenfabrikation in Freiburg i. Sch. Then, because this might be confused with the Lenzkirch name, it was a majority decision to change it to the Schlesische Uhrenfabriken, Aktien-Gesellschaft, Freiburg i. Schl..

    And then there was that first patent entry (DRGM 123786) from the new firm where it's the Vereinigte Schlesische Uhrenfabriken etc.

    But, as the old saying might well have it, it's always the tickiest just before the tock. :)

    Regards
    Zep 79194.jpg 79195.jpg
     
  44. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Very interesting, John and Zep! And there's more questions then answers, as usual )))

    One thing I really do believe is what happened after A.W&Co was bought by E.R. Schlenker: they started to make that cheap cut-plated movements with "Non Plus Ultra" logo =))))

    BR,
    Oleg
     
  45. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #45 zepernick, Dec 21, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 21, 2010
    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Greetings All --

    This is like a horo-soap opera, where we need to "tune in tomorrow" to see what has happened to the characters. In this episode, Zep finds more info in another DUZ about the Saiber-Kapplerian controversy concerning A. Willmann & Co.

    ----

    My guess that there might have been a court case against Kappler turned out to be true. What I hadn't expected is that it was brought by Saiber.

    More surprising yet, the results of the trial were published (as part of the judgment) in an almost full-page announcement in the 1 November 1902 DUZ (below), and three other clockmakers' journals and a newspaper. Oh the shame of it all! The king that it's in the name of was Wilhelm II of Prussia (aka Willy the Two).

    In brief: The civil court (names etc.) based upon oral arguments on 17 April 1902 judged that the defendant (Kappler) was guilty of having:

    First, publicly tried to cause others to believe that (1) his present firm was identical with the A. Willmann & Co. firm that was liquidated on 15. May 1901, or that it was a continuation of this earlier firm; and (2) that he had or ran a clock factory, and that the clocks he sold were made in his own factory. Second, that he had continued to spread the claim that the plaintiff (Saiber) was an agent of VFU.

    (In short, it wasn't the same company nor a continuation and Kappler didn't have a factory to make his own Willmann marked clocks.)

    The court also backed Saiber's wish that the decree part (i.e. what's in the notice) of the court's decision be published in the five publications named at the defendant's cost within a month of the judgment. And, the costs of the case were to be paid for by K, and a caution of 300M held to make sure that the judgment was carried out.

    That should take at least take care of that.

    Regards
    Zep 79216.jpg
     
  46. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    [Originally posted by John Hubby:

    Zep and Oleg, as of today I have only a total of 23 clocks documented that were made by "Willmann", with serial numbers ranging from low four digits to over 110,000, 21 of them with numbers below 40,000. ]

    Hi John,

    The image below shows a Willmann logo from the back plate of a 2-weight Vienna Regular. Not sure if you have this clock among the 23 captured in your database.

    Mun C.W. 79242.jpg
     
  47. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    #47 John Hubby, Dec 22, 2010
    Last edited: Dec 22, 2010
    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Hi Mun, thanks for the photo. As it happens I do have that clock in my database as the highest Willmann serial number so far documented, 110662. Do you have any photos of the full back plate of the movement? Or perhaps the front of the movement? I don't have those and it would help a lot for identification to see them and compare to the earlier clocks. This may have been one of the last clocks made by AWC/I before the merger to become VFU.

    With the information just posted by Zep regarding what actually happened to the Willmann company it appears that AWC/II had no capability to make clocks, thus all the ones now in my database that can positively be identified as made by AWC/I must have been made before the merger with GB et al. IF that is so then dating becomes a much easier task.

    I just read what is in the Lexikon, but the story related there says AWC/I did "not" take part in the VFU merger, saying this to be the facts even though the official announcement in the DUZ said that AWC/I "did" become part of VFU. This may have been based on Kappler's account which we now know was hokum, according to the court case, and that AWC/I "did" merge into VFU.

    I still have questions regarding the Non Plus Ultra logo. The only mention yet seen of this is after 1899, and we know that E. R. Schlenker owned this logo in 1904. Kappler used it in his claims made in 1901 as seen in the items posted by Zep, but it is "not" in the AWC/I advert of 1898.

    Two of the clocks in my data have this logo, serial numbers 29077 and 36751. "IF" these were AWC/I make, they would be from around 1880 based on the serial numbers. The two movements are virtually identical BUT have some notable differences from those of close-by serial numbers that are stamped with one of the AWC/I logos as shown in the 1898 ad. Also, the cases are more of the type found from around 1900 instead of 1880, with a distinctive Altdeutsche flavor. Is it possible that these two clocks in fact were made by E. R. Schlenker:???: Was Non Plus Ultra ever in fact used by AWC/I? This adds a bit more soap to the opera, that would be greatly clarified if we knew the answers to when this logo was first used and by whom.

    Zep, BTW you mentioned earlier that AWC/I was in business 17 years, actually was 27+ based on their founding in 1871 (Lexikon) or 1872 (the 1898 ad). If the clock Mun posted is one of the last AWC/I models, they made somewhat more than 4,100 clocks annually. In the Lexikon it is mentioned that Willman was the second largest company in Freiburg after GB, but with that level of production it was a distant second since GB average production in the last 15 of that same 27 years was in the order of 60,000 clocks annually not counting what they made in Braunau starting in 1888. No wonder that GB set the rules for the VFU merger!! :D:D
     
  48. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    [ Originally posted by John Hubby:

    Hi Mun, thanks for the photo. As it happens I do have that clock in my database as the highest Willmann serial number so far documented, 110662. Do you have any photos of the full back plate of the movement? Or perhaps the front of the movement? I don't have those and it would help a lot for identification to see them and compare to the earlier clocks. This may have been one of the last clocks made by AWC/I before the merger to become VFU.]



    Hi John,

    Apart form that solitary picture of the partial back plate showing the Willmann logo, I do not have any other picture of that clock.

    Mun C.W.
     
  49. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    LOL. That's what happens when I try to count with my shoes on! With them off I get 27 (and some sockfuzz) as well.

    Below is the 1901 registration for the NON PLUS ULTRA trademark, with the application date of 31.V.1901 and the enrollment date of 3.IX.1901. So that fits what we think we know at this point of "As the Horo-World Turns."

    Would like JTD's or SoaringJoy's opinion on the term in this context. But that the applicant(s) had "Anfertigung und Vertrieb..." instead of the more usual, for those who claim to manufacture clocks, "Fabrikation und Vertrieb..." or "Herstellung..." might be interesting.

    Several firms were in the business as wholesalers who would "produce" as it were clocks by offering both movements and cases made by others, in various combinations and as manufacturers. E.R. Schlenker was one of them.

    The entry in the 1904 Adreßbuch describes them as involved with the Fabrikation of cuckoos and wall-clocks "of all types" and the Großhandlung in tall and wall clocks, alarms, cuckoos and (other) Black Forest-types -- and pocket watches. From bits of their catalogue it's clear that they were selling other firm's complete clocks as well, along with the 1904 ad that has them selling cases and (separate) movements.

    Regards
    Zep 79258.jpg
     
  50. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    Re: A.Willmann & Co Regulator

    Very interesting indeed!! I would also like to hear what the others think about what the text really means, but it certainly looks now that the two clocks I mentioned earlier were "not" made by AWC/I. I've looked again at the details of construction from what photos I have, and they are most definitely different from typical AWC/I construction. In which case, I've removed them from my Willmann database and put them aside for future review; in the erstwhile I'll focus only on those clocks having known Willmann logos or marks that are shown in the 1898 ad to develop a serial number dating correlation.
     

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