Mechanical WW A Revoltin’ Development with Eta 2824 mainspring

[John T.]

Howdy,
A revoltin' development has occurred. Was asked to look at a ten year old Oris watch that had quit. Was his favorite watch it seems. Relented and found broken mainspring , see pic. Ordered real deal ETA 2824/2836 ms on a card as pictured. Read up on installation. Established proper orientation and it went in at first but later the end of of the spring crept up above the barrel somehow and could not get it pushed back down. Unwound from barrel to wind and reinsert it. Discovered all my finger winding arbors (Watchcraft type and K&D types) are to large fit into the smaller diameter of the ms center.

Tried to make it work thinking the spring center needed enlarging to accommodate the winder arbor. Wound up kinking the spring and pressing even further found that the barrel arbor would not engage the ms because now the ms center was too large for it.

Looked at the the broken ms center afterward and noticed it is the same smaller size as the new replacement one was, so…..what 'in the wide world of sports' should have been done??

I'll order a barrel complete this time to eliminate all those variables however am perplexed by the chain of events. I have personal watches with this movement and would like to be prepared for this hence forth.

Thanks for listening and hope this makes sense….

Regards ,
John T.

 

[roughbarked]

It comes in a ring so that it can be pressed into the barrel without a winder.
Otherwise even with a pinvice as a winder, one can use a fingernail to slip the slipper end in with.

 

[Chris Radek]

Spring winding can be so frustrating. Sometimes despite our best intentions, pressing it in from the ring directly fails, it happens.

I often have the opposite problem where the spindles are too small to catch a spring. In trouble cases I put the arbor from the watch itself in the lathe and put the spring on it, and use that to wind it into one of the barrels from one of my winder sets. The lathe spindle is really easy to turn/control by hand. I wear gloves so I don't have to be shy about touching anything necessary to keep it under control.

 

[roughbarked]

Auto slipper ends are always problematic. Since one doesn't seem to need to change them so often it isn't so easy to get practice.

 

[John T.]

It comes in a ring so that it can be pressed into the barrel without a winder.
Otherwise even with a pinvice as a winder, one can use a fingernail to slip the slipper end in with.

Thanks. I used the end of a brass tweezer to push it in off of the card. Tried to tilt it toward the slipper. I heard it click. Then went around the perimeter of the barrel with my stick. After I took the card off I saw that the slipper had started to come out and could not be pushed back in. Bad words were said for quite a spell.

No choice then but to take it the rest of way out of the barrel and try to use a winder to put it back in. However I had no winder to fit it. I did get it on but with all the experimental handling it was toast by then.

I think I have figured out though that it takes a dedicated Bergeon winder for that caliber. A mere $150 for the two parts of that single tool !! In hind sight could have tried the infamous hand wind.

Another lesson learned the hard way. I ordered a barrel complete.UNCLE!!

Maybe you could leave the ole black stump, grab a boat, and come over and help me with it.?

JT

 

[John T.]

Spring winding can be so frustrating. Sometimes despite our best intentions, pressing it in from the ring directly fails, it happens.

I often have the opposite problem where the spindles are too small to catch a spring. In trouble cases I put the arbor from the watch itself in the lathe and put the spring on it, and use that to wind it into one of the barrels from one of my winder sets. The lathe spindle is really easy to turn/control by hand. I wear gloves so I don't have to be shy about touching anything necessary to keep it under control.

Man, that is ingenious!
I wish I knew what to do with a lathe, however the learning curve would be steep and expensive for me I’m sure. Wonder if I could put the arbor in a pin vise, and then figure a way to attach it to a rotating source? Food for thought.
Thanks
JT

 

[roughbarked]

You can wind it in manually with a simple pinvice. That is, if you can get a grip on the arbor.

 

[Chris Radek]

Certainly! BUT ... a lot of pin vises are garbage, with jaws that come to sharp points. This has the double disadvantage of cutting into the work AND gripping badly to encouraging overtightening!

I strongly prefer to use lathe collets because they grip almost the whole circle. I sometimes find stems that have been turned into reamers by a garbage pin vise, and you can imagine what that does to the watch plate. So be careful! A rough barrel arbor will quickly wear the barrel or plate, and then you'll get a tipsy barrel and that's a tedious repair.

 

[roughbarked]

Another lesson learned the hard way. I ordered a barrel complete.UNCLE!!

Maybe you could leave the ole black stump, grab a boat, and come over and help me with it.?

JT

Once you have any trouble with the slipper, the mainspring will be damaged. It is a fine art learned by much practice and as Chris has said, learning which tools you have to help with the job.
A pinvice can cause much damage very easily.

 

[John T.]

Certainly! BUT ... a lot of pin vises are garbage, with jaws that come to sharp points. This has the double disadvantage of cutting into the work AND gripping badly to encouraging overtightening!

I strongly prefer to use lathe collets because they grip almost the whole circle. I sometimes find stems that have been turned into reamers by a garbage pin vise, and you can imagine what that does to the watch plate. So be careful! A rough barrel arbor will quickly wear the barrel or plate, and then you'll get a tipsy barrel and that's a tedious repair.

I once saw something on EBay that,for lack of a better description, looked like a pin vise type handle that could hold a collet on one end of it. Basically a ‘pin collet‘ vise type tool. Wonder if that would work?

 

[John T.]

I once saw something on EBay that,for lack of a better description, looked like a pin vise type handle that could hold a collet on one end of it. Basically a ‘pin collet‘ vise type tool. Wonder if that would work?

On reflection it was a bench mounted tool.

 

[MrRoundel]

I once saw something on EBay that,for lack of a better description, looked like a pin vise type handle that could hold a collet on one end of it. Basically a ‘pin collet‘ vise type tool. Wonder if that would work?

I think this would probably work. Two things though: I sure seems like that spring could get away from you not being contained in a barrel. Safety-glasses would be a must, methinks. The other thing is that those collet-holding vises seem to be pretty rare. At least they used to be. If you can find one, grab it. It's possible that someone is making them today, so finding it may be easier than it used to be. I do use mine sometimes to grip the arbor and maneuver into position in the center coil after the MS is in the barrel. This lessens the possibility of over-expanding the inner coil, as it opens it just enough to fit the arbor as you angle it in. Good luck with your repair. Cheers.

 

[roughbarked]

Bench mounted means you have a free hand.

 

[John T.]

Bench mounted means you have a free hand.

I think this would probably work. Two things though: I sure seems like that spring could get away from you not being contained in a barrel. Safety-glasses would be a must, methinks. The other thing is that those collet-holding vises seem to be pretty rare. At least they used to be. If you can find one, grab it. It's possible that someone is making them today, so finding it may be easier than it used to be. I do use mine sometimes to grip the arbor and maneuver into position in the center coil after the MS is in the barrel. This lessens the possibility of over-expanding the inner coil, as it opens it just enough to fit the arbor as you angle it in. Good luck with your repair. Cheers. View attachment 691855

That’s what I had in mind. Never seen one of those. Large version of those jewel mounting tools sort of. The one I saw was stationary and sat on the bench I think. If I ever see either I’ll try to get it just to have. The more tools the more creative!

I’ll have more thought to put into it next time.
Thanks
JT

 

[Dave Haynes]

If you are completely at witts end, you could take the spring out of the shipping ring, insert the arbor in the proper way. Then you place the spring into the barrel by hand like the old timers used to do. The danger is accidentally tweeking the spring while placing it, but that could also happen for any of several reasons associated with replacing a spring. When the spring gets almost in all of the way you push the arbor into place and finish. There are two pitfalls, if the spring gets away you could wind up having the barrel arbor exit stage right as the spring balls up into a knot. If you are careful and take your time this won't happen. And buy a proper spring winder set that goes smaller than a pocket watch barrel. I have a set of Levins and they work fantastically. Don't count out having the supplier send you the wrong spring that should work. I see that a lot like the mainspring I bought from Otto Frie who charged me $30 for a spring for a Waltham 6'0 42 it had a T and hole end which works fine for early 6/0s like the Jewel series, but won't even go into a war time 6/0. I never bother to send anything back to Otto, too much trouble.

 

[roughbarked]

I'll try to round out what Dave said in that if it was a manual winding watch, then winding the mainspring in by hand is generally a breeze but because it has an auto slipper end, this becoomes way more difficult by a much larger margin. Hand winding a mainspring means that it goes in backwards in that you put the outer end in first and gently turn the mainspring in to the center. However, with the slipper end the greatest difficulty is to get this in and start winding without causing any damage to the slipper. It can get bent out of shape and not function properly afterwards.

 

[John Runciman]

simple pinvice. That is, if you can get a grip on the arbor.

While a pin vice seems like a universal tool is sometimes problematic like on mainspring barrel arbor's. They're expensive but they do make something that looks like a pin vice that specifically designed for barrel arbor's. I have the image below see you can see what they look like. But as others have pointed out a lathe works really well for holding things especially barrel arbor's. On American pocket watch spring this where the replacements aren't always sized like the original getting arbors back in holding them in a pin vice so problematic. But using the lathe to get the arbor back in works really really nice.

Auto slipper ends are always problematic. Since one doesn't seem to need to change them so often it isn't so easy to get practice.

That's not entirely a correct statement? Every time you service a watch you're supposed to check the mainspring.

If you send your watch to Swatch group they don't check the mainspring they replace the entire barrel. But that's easy they have an entire spare parts room filled with all sorts a wonderful parts that we will never see.

Omega which is part of Swatch group Has a instruction sheet on what they call recycling the barrel. They explain in detail how to open the barrel checked the mainspring wipe it with the cloth no cleaning fluids. Check everything about the barrel basically it should look perfect. Then when they verify everything is absolutely perfect the barrel and arbor are cleaned in the standard solutions and both of them are surface treated. Breaking grease is applied to the barrel the mainspring was back inside. Then amusingly one of the reasons they surface treat is they're not using the right lubrication for the barrel arbor at least if you look at the manufacturer's specifications for the lubrication. HP 1300 isn't supposed to be used on steel and brass it's only for jeweled bearings. They don't say why it's just in one of their lubrication sheets I don't even think it's on the spec sheet for the lubrication but it's what Omega recommends. But that would be a reason surface treat the barrel to keep the oil from spreading all over the place which it would do.

 

[John T.]

If you are completely at witts end, you could take the spring out of the shipping ring, insert the arbor in the proper way. Then you place the spring into the barrel by hand like the old timers used to do. The danger is accidentally tweeking the spring while placing it, but that could also happen for any of several reasons associated with replacing a spring. When the spring gets almost in all of the way you push the arbor into place and finish. There are two pitfalls, if the spring gets away you could wind up having the barrel arbor exit stage right as the spring balls up into a knot. If you are careful and take your time this won't happen. And buy a proper spring winder set that goes smaller than a pocket watch barrel. I have a set of Levins and they work fantastically. Don't count out having the supplier send you the wrong spring that should work. I see that a lot like the mainspring I bought from Otto Frie who charged me $30 for a spring for a Waltham 6'0 42 it had a T and hole end which works fine for early 6/0s like the Jewel series, but won't even go into a war time 6/0. I never bother to send anything back to Otto, too much trouble.

Seems I”m always at witts’ end.
I have the K&D version of the Levins set. Either too small or too large for this mainspring.
What I should have done was take a time out from it. That usually helps to clear things in the ole noggin’. I was able to mix and match and cobble a winding barrel and arbor from another set and get it on there, after I had already ruined it.
Hoping for better luck next time. Nothin’s easy….
JT

 

[roughbarked]

That's not entirely a correct statement? Every time you service a watch you're supposed to check the mainspring.

Yes but wind it back in by hand? I'd say that very few would be doing that.

 

[John T.]

Yes but wind it back in by hand? I'd say that very few would be doing that.

Well,
Looked around and found these two examples of new hand held collet holder. Also saw one very used like the one MrRoundel posted selling for $80.

Opinions on the two new tools functionality for winding or handling barrel arbours per this discussion?

 

[roughbarked]

They'll work but There are still the other issues with this method that have been mentioned.

 

[John T.]

They'll work but There are still the other issues with this method that have been mentioned.

Yeah, not what you would call the optimum solution by far. Was sort of looking for pro and con thoughts on using these particular tools vs the perils mentionEd for using a pin vise. Hope to never have to use them for predicament like the last one BUT if I did…………??

Does look like a good way to handle arbors while fitting them into the spring once wound into the barrel, as has been mentioned.

Could potentially save a lot of time crawling around on the floor with a magnet and flashlight searching for launched parts‘ and their splashdown locations.

Not sure they could wind a spring Into a barrel. A few sacrificial lambs would in order to see. Just thought it would be of interest to all that they are out there some where.

 

[roughbarked]

If you buy the set you can practise on any non working watches.

 

[John T.]

If you buy the set you can practise on any non working watches.

Good idea Roughbark. I was thinking maybe you could send me a couple of Rolex from your vast collection to do just that. It’ll be checking the mailbox daily.

Thanks to you and the others who responded with insight Into the matter.
Coming here allowed a bad thing to lead to something good!
Go figure,
John T.

 

[John Runciman]

Yes but wind it back in by hand? I'd say that very few would be doing that.

You're supposed to use mainspring winders you're not supposed to wind up back in by hand. Hand winding is what you do when you're really desperate and have no other way to do it but often times rewarded with consequences usually bad consequences.

 

[roughbarked]

This is true.

 

[everydaycats]

You can buy an old set of winders like I have on auction sites—and fairly cheap compared to the real thing. My winders are three days older than dirt and with my severely arthritic hands/fingers, and the worn winders, it is a chore, but it has worked for me for a very long time: BTW, There are for wrist watches...

 

[karlmansson]

I think this would probably work. Two things though: I sure seems like that spring could get away from you not being contained in a barrel. Safety-glasses would be a must, methinks. The other thing is that those collet-holding vises seem to be pretty rare. At least they used to be. If you can find one, grab it. It's possible that someone is making them today, so finding it may be easier than it used to be. I do use mine sometimes to grip the arbor and maneuver into position in the center coil after the MS is in the barrel. This lessens the possibility of over-expanding the inner coil, as it opens it just enough to fit the arbor as you angle it in. Good luck with your repair. Cheers. View attachment 691855

I think that if you have a lathe you might be able to make a simple “spindle” for your 8 or 6mm collets. Doesn’t even need to be concentric. You just need to get the collet taper right and the length right. Then you can even use your lathe drawbar to close the collet. A 10mm brass rod should provide good stock for this.

 

[Al J]

Thanks. I used the end of a brass tweezer to push it in off of the card. Tried to tilt it toward the slipper. I heard it click. Then went around the perimeter of the barrel with my stick. After I took the card off I saw that the slipper had started to come out and could not be pushed back in. Bad words were said for quite a spell.

For next time, and to avoid all this difficulty, I would suggest a slightly different method of installing the mainspring from the shipping ring.

Here's a photo of what I use:



The barrel has been prepared as required (braking grease installed on autos) and the barrel drum is placed on the barrel closing tool base. I set the mainspring on top of the barrel, and use the back of my tweezers to press the spring flush with the top of the shipping ring. This makes the spring protrude slightly from the bottom of the ring, so you can more easily check to make sure it's centered. I then lay the back end of my tweezers across the spring and shipping ring, leaving a part of the spring exposed. I then use the tool you see on the right, which I made out of brass stock, to press the spring into the barrel drum while still holding everything in place with the back of the tweezers. The tool I made for this just has a screwdriver like end on it, that won't damage the spring when you use it to press the spring in.

Typically the spring just pops right out of the shipping ring with the slightest push, because I've already made it so that very little of the spring is still in the ring. I typically will press on the part of the spring where the bridle is, and I press on the very outer coil. Using this method, things very rarely go wrong, even on some springs where there is very little clearance between the inside diameter of the barrel drum, and the outside diameter of the spring.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

 

[Al J]

That's not entirely a correct statement? Every time you service a watch you're supposed to check the mainspring.

If you send your watch to Swatch group they don't check the mainspring they replace the entire barrel. But that's easy they have an entire spare parts room filled with all sorts a wonderful parts that we will never see.

Omega which is part of Swatch group Has a instruction sheet on what they call recycling the barrel.

Personally I change the spring in every watch I service, but yes they should at least be disassembled and checked.

Swatch does replace the barrel complete most times, which is often incredibly wasteful. I would say 90% of the time the only part I replace is the spring, so the barrel drum, cover, and arbor are often just fine to use again.

As of January 1, Omega no longer sells these individual parts for some of their movements, so the 1120, 2500, and 1150 series movements are all now barrel complete only. So, before they made that change I stocked up a bit...barrel parts:




And enough mainsprings to get me through for a while - 10 per box:



Cheers, Al

 

[John T.]

For next time, and to avoid all this difficulty, I would suggest a slightly different method of installing the mainspring from the shipping ring.

Here's a photo of what I use:

View attachment 692413

The barrel has been prepared as required (braking grease installed on autos) and the barrel drum is placed on the barrel closing tool base. I set the mainspring on top of the barrel, and use the back of my tweezers to press the spring flush with the top of the shipping ring. This makes the spring protrude slightly from the bottom of the ring, so you can more easily check to make sure it's centered. I then lay the back end of my tweezers across the spring and shipping ring, leaving a part of the spring exposed. I then use the tool you see on the right, which I made out of brass stock, to press the spring into the barrel drum while still holding everything in place with the back of the tweezers. The tool I made for this just has a screwdriver like end on it, that won't damage the spring when you use it to press the spring in.

Typically the spring just pops right out of the shipping ring with the slightest push, because I've already made it so that very little of the spring is still in the ring. I typically will press on the part of the spring where the bridle is, and I press on the very outer coil. Using this method, things very rarely go wrong, even on some springs where there is very little clearance between the inside diameter of the barrel drum, and the outside diameter of the spring.

Hope this helps.

Cheers, Al

Thanks for the advice. A sound tactic. I’ll remember to use it on the next implant.

 

[John T.]

You can buy an old set of winders like I have on auction sites—and fairly cheap compared to the real thing. My winders are three days older than dirt and with my severely arthritic hands/fingers, and the worn winders, it is a chore, but it has worked for me for a very long time: BTW, There are for wrist watches...

View attachment 692355

You can buy an old set of winders like I have on auction sites—and fairly cheap compared to the real thing. My winders are three days older than dirt and with my severely arthritic hands/fingers, and the worn winders, it is a chore, but it has worked for me for a very long time: BTW, There are for wrist watches...

View attachment 692355

I have this very set branded as Watchcraft. Not sure who really makes them as I have seen the same set under other brands. Best purchase I have made in that regard. Had to get a K&D set later that would do those Seiko contrary winds. However, the set has no tool with an arbour to fit the ETA 2428 caliber mainspring and proper barrel tool at the same time .

I found it possible to float a smaller diameter arbour from the set that would engage the spring itself while held over (floated) the larger proper 10mm barrel tool and wind the spring into it, however it would help to have dexterity, nerves, and Lady Luck on your side. I did it after I had already ruined the spring.

No one has mentioned a tool designed to handle this particular spring available for public consumption, so far. Seems ETA design would rather you install a new spring or barrel complete if the spring is removed.

Creative alternatives,thankfully have been shared here.

The beat goes on, so to speak.

JT

 

[roughbarked]

Installing a new spring and or barrel, should always be a consideration. Considering that a mainspring is similar to a battery, at some point it will need to be changed.
Back in the day, Longines wrote do not open on their barrel lids. Certina and others used a gold coloured barrel, which was again considered do not open, simply replace.

 

[Al J]

Installing a new spring and or barrel, should always be a consideration. Considering that a mainspring is similar to a battery, at some point it will need to be changed.
Back in the day, Longines wrote do not open on their barrel lids. Certina and others used a gold coloured barrel, which was again considered do not open, simply replace.

The sealed mainspring barrels are a pain. Some are easier to open than others, but they were used by a bunch of brands. Bulova, Lngines, Zodiac, etc.





The "new-ish" Rolex 3235 has a barrel with such a thin wall thickness, that the barrel can't be opened and closed without damage. It was done to put in a slightly longer mainspring to help increase the power reserve. It worked, at a cost, but the many issues with that movement is another discussion entirely...

Cheers, Al

 

[everydaycats]

I have this very set branded as Watchcraft. Not sure who really makes them as I have seen the same set under other brands. Best purchase I have made in that regard. Had to get a K&D set later that would do those Seiko contrary winds. However, the set has no tool with an arbour to fit the ETA 2428 caliber mainspring and proper barrel tool at the same time .

I found it possible to float a smaller diameter arbour from the set that would engage the spring itself while held over (floated) the larger proper 10mm barrel tool and wind the spring into it, however it would help to have dexterity, nerves, and Lady Luck on your side. I did it after I had already ruined the spring.

No one has mentioned a tool designed to handle this particular spring available for public consumption, so far. Seems ETA design would rather you install a new spring or barrel complete if the spring is removed.

Creative alternatives,thankfully have been shared here.

The beat goes on, so to speak.

JT

Here's a picture of my winder maker:

 

[John T.]

The sealed mainspring barrels are a pain. Some are easier to open than others, but they were used by a bunch of brands. Bulova, Lngines, Zodiac, etc.

View attachment 692476

View attachment 692477

The "new-ish" Rolex 3235 has a barrel with such a thin wall thickness, that the barrel can't be opened and closed without damage. It was done to put in a slightly longer mainspring to help increase the power reserve. It worked, at a cost, but the many issues with that movement is another discussion entirely...

Cheers, Al

The sealed mainspring barrels are a pain. Some are easier to open than others, but they were used by a bunch of brands. Bulova, Lngines, Zodiac, etc.

View attachment 692476

View attachment 692477

The "new-ish" Rolex 3235 has a barrel with such a thin wall thickness, that the barrel can't be opened and closed without damage. It was done to put in a slightly longer mainspring to help increase the power reserve. It worked, at a cost, but the many issues with that movement is another discussion entirely...

Cheers, Al

Bulova has this on some of their barrels. Sealed, do not open. I have opened , cleaned and closed a few of these with no issues.The watches run fine. I stick to pre 70s Bulova models mostly. NOS replacements are hard to locate that don’t have a ransom price. Were they readily available and reasonable I would replace.

The caveat being I am a serious hobbyist doing this for my own amusement. After testing I rarely wear them very much. Not for every day use. Mostly display. Pros have a clientele to satisfy and the background experience to wisely replace them when called for.

I have never run into a broken spring like this one. Curious what caused it.

 

[roughbarked]

Most of the do not open barrels, I have opened and put back together again without problems. The ones to not play with are the Longines ones.

 

[Al J]

Most of the do not open barrels, I have opened and put back together again without problems. The ones to not play with are the Longines ones.

I find the Zodiac's to be bad as well...the wall of the barrel drum is sort of crimped over the barrel lid. You can open it pretty easy, but getting it closed again is tough...

 

[John T.]

I find the Zodiac's to be bad as well...the wall of the barrel drum is sort of crimped over the barrel lid. You can open it pretty easy, but getting it closed again is tough...

A question here. Ya’ll (from GA) have seen a lot of broken mainsprings like the one I’m replacing. What would normally cause one to break like this one did, AND what part of the spring is most apt to break.
Cheers,
JT

 

[Al J]

Springs usually break from fatigue. The most common places will be at the inner coil, and then where the bridle attaches.

 

[John T.]

Springs usually break from fatigue. The most common places will be at the inner coil, and then where the bridle attaches.

Thanks Al J.
Wear and tear over time it seems. I think this one was under continual duress from
lack of service. The drum interior had hard and dried lube of some sort.
I suppose that in itself was a lot of the problem. Just never seen one broken before.

The barrel complete comes in today. Hope the rest is uneventful.

Fingers Crossed,

John T.