A rare eight day click 30 hour posted frame movement

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by novicetimekeeper, Mar 31, 2019.

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  1. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    How rare?

    Well I don't actually know. I've seen hundreds of posted frame movements and I only know of four with eight day clicks, two by John Knibb of which I own one. This one has a slightly different look to the others, it looks less like an 8 day click, perhaps more like a date wheel.

    However how rare is the question, because I had already listed this one on ebay for parts before I realised what it was. I've owned it a long time, it has been knocking about on the floor of our conservatory collecting dust and unloved. It came in a lot of three clocks of which I wanted only one and had to take all three. The other has also been sold and the one I wanted has been fully funded by the other two so I can't really complain.

    It already had a bid on it, and being an honourable chap I let it run. It sold for that maiden bid, even though I had updated the description and also found the bell stand which I had listed as absent.

    The movement is rather nice anyway, has consistent collets, so not messed with, has round posts, an unusual style of chain sprocket that grips the outside of the link not with spikes and therefore not affected much by chain stretch.

    All in all a bargain for what it went for, but everybody is entitled to a bargain.

    At least I took the pics and can list it here for posterity.

    8 day click 6.jpg 8 day click 4.jpg 8 day click 2.jpg 8 day click 1.jpg 8 day click 10.jpg 8 day click 8.jpg 8 day click 7.jpg 8 day click 5.jpg 8 day click 3.jpg 8 day click 11.jpg
     
    D.th.munroe likes this.
  2. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

    Jul 26, 2015
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    oh I think there is a pic missing as one is duplicated

    This shows the chain retention system

    8 day click 12.jpg
     
  3. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Feb 19, 2005
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    Honestly, I really can't make out how the chain retention system works from the provided photos. I believe I've seen one (or maybe I have one - also a junker) which uses pairs of spikes on the rim (not in the centre) to hold in between the chain links, but that doesn't seem to be the case here?

    As for click-wheel chain drive movements, I don't know about rarity. I know they're mentioned in the Robey books, but I don't remember if he mentions rarity, are where popular, or other details other than "yes they exist".
     
  4. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    The twin spike splayed out was favoured by William Porthouse, I always thought that was a good idea. This is the same principle but rather more sophisticated. Instead of using splayed spikes it has a shaped ring between the cheeks of the wheel in which each link sits, so that the leading edge of the link is stopped in the shoulders of the recess.

    The 8 day click is rare, that is not in doubt. How rare is rather more difficult. John Knibb used them, George Clarke used them, and this maker used them. This is a slightly different incarnation but the principle is the same.

    One of the problems is spotting them, I do look to see if the click is the older spring washer or the newer toggle, so I do look in there when looking at clocks for sale. I think the problem with this one was that it came as part of a job lot and I never really looked at it as I wasn't interested in it very much.

    It did make me look more closely at the others I was selling and I realised that one was an alarm clock and not missing a strike train as I thought when it first turned up years ago!
     
  5. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
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    Nick, 8 day type clicks are rare for 30 hour English longcase movements. I realize you only care about English. You know the 8 day type clicks were used on the German 30 hour movements. But there are less German longcase movements than English. German-style American 30 hr. longcase movements have 8 day clicks, as well. They are usually from Pennsylvania and especially Lancaster County. I see one from Ephrata is coming up for auction.
     
  6. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    It's not that I only care about the English clocks, but you are right it is all I collect. I suppose I'm guilty of doing what Americans are famous for and assuming everything started here, though to be fair quite a bit did, we were generally just rubbish at marketing, and later too conservative to adapt.

    I'm always interested in where ideas came from, though, and most English clock and watch making was really imported from mainland Europe and then refined here mostly by immigrants, particularly Huguenot craftsmen (and we had a few women too)

    In spring clocks we were very slow because we had trouble with the metallurgy of the springs.

    However English 30 hour gravity driven clocks are a particular interest of mine especially as they show far more individuality than most 8 days.

    I have noticed the eight day clicks on mainland Europe clocks, I wonder why it was so unusual here. It gives a much smoother action and makes them a pleasure to wind. It also does far less damage to the clock than the spring washer style and even the toggle. The spring washer approach was presumably cheaper and easier to make for the provincial clock maker, and for the first hundred years or so the difference in wear rate would have been irrelevant.
     
  7. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

    Feb 18, 2004
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    Lol, I agree with your assessment. Being an amateur self-taught history buff, in my lifetime I have come to realize that not everything came from the USA as I was taught. But I still am a proud USA citizen. Notice I didn't say "American", because Canada and Mexico are part of N. America. And to most of the population of the USA, history is not a priority and is too easily forgotten.
    But hey, it's a "free country" so you collect whatever you want. I have American clocks, but mostly English and European. Among other reasons, because European clocks can be easily found still unmolested, or "tinkered with". But I digress. Perhaps a fault of the old Germans was too much reliance on 30 hour clocks, which doesn't translate well to today with all the winding required. So not as desirable. To me, English clocks are my favorite, because of their robust nature, generous use of brass and steel. Try to find anything built as well today like an old English clock.
     
  8. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Now that's very interesting.

    So did we in the US.

    There are some earlier American spring driven shelf clocks including "brackets" and ones by makers like Curtis and Clark. See:

    Curtis & Clark Miniature Shelf Clock | Sale Number 2724M, Lot Number 548 | Skinner Auctioneers

    They brag that the springs were imported from Geneva.

    So what to do if you wished to mass produce numbers of spring driven clocks and avoid importing expensive steel springs from Europe?

    Well, there's the iron "wagon spring" about which there is much on the MB (also an iron "leaf spring" was used in some rare models) and then springs of rolled brass (first in detached fusees, then retained in iron cups then just on like any other spring on the winding arbor). I believe we have Joseph Ives to thank much of that. Steel springs would come later as the Industrial Revolution developed in the US.

    RM
     
  9. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User

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    Yes I've seen those wagon spring types.

    We started on spring clocks in the late 17th century, and they fairly rapidly overtook gravity clocks for the super wealthy, and I really do mean super wealthy. That all happened in the golden age of English clocks as it is called, fabulous longcase gave way eventually to fabulous bracket clocks.

    Gravity clocks continued for the middle class but by the 1730s the elite in London had turned to the bracket clock. The gravity clock continued to flourish in the provinces and for lesser clocks in rich households. Also for travelling alarm clocks.

    The odd thing to me is that all this came about at the expense of accuracy, because the bracket clock was the home of the verge, whereas the longcase had moved on to the Royal pendulum and earlier gravity clocks were being converted to long pendulum too.

    Anyway, we digress. I'm about to pack up this little bit of horological curiosity and send it on to its new owner.
     

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