A problem with my english longcase clock

[Antonivs]

Good night


Several years ago, I presented a 30-hour English clock on the forum, the problem I have is that it rings the bells so fast that it is impossible to know in the case of long hours, such as 7-12, how many bells it has given, and as the chime sounds, it goes faster and faster, until it stops suddenly on the last chime, how can I regulate the chime?

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

A short video, especially the rack, posted to you tube will help. How much does each weight weigh?

 

[svenedin]

It sounds like the weight is too heavy or the fly fan is defective in some way. The fan acts as a regulator of the strike speed but if the weight is much too heavy it cannot slow the strike down enough. Sometimes the fan has been replaced with one that is too small to do the job. I'd try a lighter weight first.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

A short video, especially the rack, posted to you tube will help. How much does each weight weigh?

It probably isn't rack, though there are plenty that were.

It may have been given an 8 day weight, or perhaps the fly is too loose on the arbour.

 

[Antonivs]

hello, thank you all for the answers, let's see Thomas, the clock is 30 hours, in these clocks a weight activates both mechanisms, the weight is 7 pounds, the weight is distributed between both axes, the chime and the train hours, with which each axle receives half the weight; Svendin in this image you can see the fly of the clock, in spanish this piece is called "venterol" I don't know if it is the original or not, but it rotates freely on its axis and one of the welds is loose, in this other image you can see the problem

this photo is taken before it was disassembled and cleaned and adjusted, ahh Novicetimekeeper thanks for your answer, maybe the soldering is the problem

 

[svenedin]

Thanks for the pictures and explanation. The fly should not be solid on the arbour but able to move on the arbour with some pressure (but not loose). When the strike starts it needs to pick up speed and at that point the fly slips on the arbour. As the strike speeds up the fly starts to move with the arbour and creates drag on the movement which regulates the speed. It seems such a simple part but is actually quite complex. There is sometimes a spring which control the tension of the fly on the arbour.

 

[Willie X]

I would say that the fly should never slip on it's shaft, except when the train stops abruptly at the end of the count.
Willie X

 

[svenedin]

I would say that the fly should never slip on it's shaft, except when the train stops abruptly at the end of the count.
Willie X

I think it should slip both at the very start of the train being released and at the end when the train halts abruptly. It’s an inertia thing isn’t it? Some of my clocks have a more sophisticated centrifugal governor. The fan is basically an air brake.

 

[shutterbug]

The main thing is that the fan maintains momentum when it reaches full speed. If it's slipping on the arbor it will likely just keep getting worse. You want it tight enough to grip while it's spinning, but loose enough to cushion the stress of the sudden stop at the end of the run. You'll have to remove it to tighten it, but might be able to slip it out without having to split the plates completely. Careful not to bend the pivots.

 

[Room 335]

Might be worth checking the hammer spring as well... if it's too weak or in the wrong position the strike train could run a lot faster,
Richard

 

[gmorse]

Hi Antonivs,

...but it rotates freely on its axis and one of the welds is loose,

It appears from this picture that the spring that provides the pressure to stop the fly from rotating freely but still allows it to slip a little, (as shutterbug has described), is damaged, corroded or at least displaced.

Regards,

Graham

 

[svenedin]

Hi Antonivs,


View attachment 733719

It appears from this picture that the spring that provides the pressure to stop the fly from rotating freely but still allows it to slip a little, (as shutterbug has described), is damaged, corroded or at least displaced.

Regards,

Graham

Yes exactly Graham. I take it from what the OP said that there was a solder repair that has let go (end of post #5). I don't think solder is the answer here especially with the way heat can alter the temper of a spring but we would need to see the complete fly to ascertain exactly what is wrong......

Stephen

 

[Antonivs]

Hello

good night

first of all thanks for the answers, I think I have found a solution to the problem, I thought that if I added weight to the fly it would rotate more slowly, since the force transmitted in the last axis is minimal, with a minimum of weight it would be possible, I have added 20gr 0,71oz and I have solved the problem, the bells are heard clearly and the calendar wheel does not jump with each chime

 

[Willie X]

Adding weight to a fly is never the answer. At least, I've never seen a bad fly that was made better by adding weight ...

Can you remove the fly and it's arbor and take it (or send it out) to be repaired? English style repo flys are available but it's usually best to repair the old one.

Looks like the tension spring has broken or come loose.

Willie X

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Adding mass to the fly does not sound like the way forward even though it seems to have improved it.

 

[Uhralt]

20 g is quite abit of weight for a fly. Maybe the reduction in speed comes only from the inreased friction of the stationary fly and the arbor moving. Maybe the fly doesn't move at all anymore. That would be a recipe for increased wear.

Uhralt

 

[shutterbug]

Adding weight should actually make the problem worse. It could also damage or break the stop pin in time.

 

[Thomas Sanguigni]

At least you diagnossed your problem. However, if the weight was not added equally, it could exacerbate wear. The fly is an easy fix. Your unit could also use a bath and service. Some of your cut pinions show lots of wear.

 

[Antonivs]

Goodnight,

Before all, thanks for the answers

In the watch shops of the city where I live, this kind of clocks are no longer repaired, nor are there pieces like these, in fact I had to order the pendulum rod from a store in England, apparently the piece rotates on the axis, I have seen that it rotates when the clock strikes its chimes, it has a certain inertia when it stops,

 

[Antonivs]

However, if you consider that adding weight is not the solution, I will remove it and try to weld the part that is loose on the fly, 20 grams was the maximum that I could add, since above the chime it did not activate or it began to vibrate from a horrible way, that the needles oscillated

 

[Antonivs]

in this photo you can see the venterol out of the machine after cleaning it, I don't know if the problem is that it is cut on both sides, and the cut is very large in these 30-hour machines, the anchor arms, I don't know how it says in English, in Spanish it is "ancora", they are very close to the fly, and without those cuts I think that the arms would collide with the fly when it starts to move

 

[Antonivs]

In this photo that I have taken from the internet, you can see a 30-hour machine with the fly without cuts, I don't know if the problem is that the welding is loose or that the piece is also cut and that is why it does not do air resistance enough

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Whether or not the fly needs the cutouts just depends on the movement layout. That won't have changed, all that has changed is the tension in the fly.

 

[Uhralt]

in this photo you can see the venterol out of the machine after cleaning it, I don't know if the problem is that it is cut on both sides, and the cut is very large in these 30-hour machines, the anchor arms, I don't know how it says in English, in Spanish it is "ancora", they are very close to the fly, and without those cuts I think that the arms would collide with the fly when it starts to move

View attachment 734514

The spring that should provide some friction is missing. Somebody has in the past tried to solder a new piece of spring on, but that is missing too. You could remove the solder and try to push a piece of thin piano wire (or other spring wire) under the groove in the arbor (next to the blob of solder) and secure the ends by bending the wire over the sides of the fly. That should provide some desired tension. It's not a beautiful repair but it will work and is fully reversible.

Uhralt

Uhralt

 

[Mike Phelan]

Are the cutouts on the fly because it's been put in the wrong way so it collided with the hoop wheel? I don't see a spring on the fly where there should be.
Don't understand "venterol"?

 

[Antonivs]

Hello Goodnight

Novicetimekeeper, I suppose that each machinery is different, and has a different layout, in my case the anchor is next to the fly paddles and when the arms of the anchor swing they collide with the fly when the bells ring. I thought that the cuts in the fly, having less contact surface, generate less resistance...

Uhratl, the spring of the fly, the piece that crosses it from side to side, is there but it doesn't look good in the photo, only that I have discovered that it is loose, and the fly rotates freely without resistance on its axis.

Mike, the cuts in the fly are because it is very close to the arms of the anchor and would collide with them when turning when the chime is activated, "venterol" is the name in Spanish of the piece that is called fly in English, sorry, when I wrote I put first venterol and not fly

I have removed the extra weight and removed the fly, tomorrow I will try to weld or glue the loose part to see if the problem is corrected

 

[Antonivs]

And this photo is from the exploded view of the movement, I used the degreasing liquid to unblock the anchor that did not turn to adjust the beat

I love this old English clock, it has a simple but robust movement, I want it to work again, how sad it is to see a stopped clock, the next step is to acquire a Bracket ^^

 

[JimmyOz]

I used the degreasing liquid to unblock the anchor that did not turn to adjust the beat

It may be lost in translation? however you do not move the anchor to get it into beat, you bend the wire on the crutch.

 

[Antonivs]

hello JimmyOz , in a video from youtube of ticktock Tony, it says that one of the ways to adjust the beat is through the anchor, but if it doesn't move, you can adjust it by pressing on the crutch and bending it



and this is de URL for de video ^^

 

[Willie X]

These anchors are usually driven onto a square shaft. So, trying to rotate the anchor will not be possible.

Bending the crutch is how you adjust the beat. Two fingers on one hand at the top and bottom of the crutch and one finger on the other hand at the middle. This is the way a pro would adjust most English clocks. You only need access to the sides of the movement, which is easily available, with the hood removed.
Willie X

 

[Mike Phelan]

Hello Goodnight


Uhratl, the spring of the fly, the piece that crosses it from side to side, is there but it doesn't look good in the photo, only that I have discovered that it is loose, and the fly rotates freely without resistance on its axis.

It's because there isn't a spring on the fly whereas there should be.

Mike, the cuts in the fly are because it is very close to the arms of the anchor and would collide with them when turning when the chime is activated, "venterol" is the name in Spanish of the piece that is called fly in English, sorry, when I wrote I put first venterol and not fly

No problem - it was just that I couldn't find it on Google! I still wonder if the fly is the wrong way round and ought not collide with the anchor? I've encountered many longcase clocks and never seen this cut-out.

 

[Jevan]

Over the years I have seen many of these cut-away fly blades which I have always considered original although I would guess that they become more common in the later English longcases.
There is approximately a hundred year gap between the dates of the two clocks pictured below.

 

[Mike Phelan]

I must admit I've never seen any of these! At least this one has a proper fly spring on it.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Over the years I have seen many of these cut-away fly blades which I have always considered original although I would guess that they become more common in the later English longcases.
There is approximately a hundred year gap between the dates of the two clocks pictured below.

View attachment 734721
View attachment 734722

That 2nd one looks rather nice, latched pillars and decorative ironwork on a 30 hour?

 

[Jevan]

novicetimekeeper

Yes, it's a latched 30hr made by James Whittaker who I believe is from a family of makers around the Manchester area.
Bought as a movement only over forty years ago and currently sitting in a relatively new walnut case, in theory it's only in there to keep the dust off

 

[novicetimekeeper]

novicetimekeeper

Yes, it's a latched 30hr made by James Whittaker who I believe is from a family of makers around the Manchester area.
Bought as a movement only over forty years ago and currently sitting in a relatively new walnut case, in theory it's only in there to keep the dust off

View attachment 734784

Oh that dial doesn't disappoint either, and such a lovely hand!

 

[Antonivs]

A difference of 100 years between both movements? so my movement is more modern than I thought...perhaps the case and dial are not original to the clock, your clock Jevan is very nice ^^ but it only has one hand, right? is the first time that I see a clock like this

 

[Antonivs]

Mike in this image you can see the fly better, the piece that crosses it from side to side is the spring, that you tell me? this piece is loose

 

[Jevan]

Antonivs

I would not claim to be an expert in dating clocks but I believe my single hand longcase dates to the first ten years of the 1700's whereas the maker of the other 30hr longcase is recorded as working between 1744-78 so my earlier post is not accurate.

I mentioned one hundred years to suggest that cut-out flys were not a short lived fashion but pretty much known throughout the period that longcases were popular domestic clocks.

In my opinion the type of clock you have could be found in production over a period of many years and the most efficient way to attribute a date is to look up the maker in a reference book… assuming your clock is signed or if it's a white dial clock any signature is legible.

My clock is single hand and I believe single hand longcase clocks were in production from the earliest longcases to much later than might at first be imagined in modern times.
I suspect they began as a legacy throw down from the very earliest domestic clock and lantern clocks when the majority of the population would have no practical use for a minute hand and the practice may well have continued as I imagine apart from anything else it offered a cheaper clock in terms of production costs, my understanding is a clock of this period was still a substantial outlay in terms of buying cost.

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Single handed clocks were made right up to and into the period of the painted dial. All the painted dial single handers I have seen have been posted frame, suggesting there was no mass market for them. Single handed public clocks were still being installed in the 1780s.

 

[gmorse]

Hi Antonivs,

the piece that crosses it from side to side is the spring, that you tell me? this piece is loose

The answer to your problem is very clear, this picture from Jevan shows exactly how the fly and its spring should look:



Without the spring, the fly cannot work correctly. The spring has to be fixed firmly to the fly so that it presses quite positively on the arbor, either by riveting as in this picture, or by some other means, which could include adhesive, but it would have to be a strong one.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Antonivs]

Hello good afternoon

Javan thanks for the explanation. ^^
In these photos you can see the inscription on the dial, I hope it will serve to date it then. Gmorse as I write these lines I have welded, well glued the spring with a Loctite 480 metal glue, I will let it cure for 12 hours and then I will start the clock, the spring at least is fixed and does not move like before without more.

Novicetimekeeper, thanks for the explanation, if they were made up to 1780 I guess my longcase will be from the 19th century 1840-1850 maybe?

 

[Jevan]

An Edward Maud in Daventry, Northamptonshire is listed 1791-5 which fits with the period this dial looks to belong to, circa 1770-1800.

The quote above is from your thread several years ago and is taken from an accepted reference book, I see no reason why this would not refer to your maker which suggests early 1790's.

 

[Jevan]

The square element is not assembled correctly, if it's a friction spring it should be mounted underneath the wheel not on top

 

[novicetimekeeper]

Hello good afternoon

Javan thanks for the explanation. ^^
In these photos you can see the inscription on the dial, I hope it will serve to date it then. Gmorse as I write these lines I have welded, well glued the spring with a Loctite 480 metal glue, I will let it cure for 12 hours and then I will start the clock, the spring at least is fixed and does not move like before without more.

View attachment 734935


View attachment 734936

Novicetimekeeper, thanks for the explanation, if they were made up to 1780 I guess my longcase will be from the 19th century 1840-1850 maybe?

No, for most of the time single handers were an option, not the only option.

Your dial has 5 minute arabic numerals suggesting first period up to 1800, arabic hour numerals suggesting second period up to 1830. I think it is going to be close to 1800.

 

[Antonivs]

Goodnight

First of all, thank you for the explanation about the dates, yes, in my first post, I thought it was from the end of the 18th century, but I mistakenly believed that the one-hand clocks were earlier than the two-hand clocks and that they did not coexist at the same time, and I thought that my clock was more modern

Jevan the square piece when I disassembled it was like this before, that explains why the needles collide with each other, I will put the piece under the wheel then.

thanks for the advice^^

Novicetimekeeper, thanks for the explanation, it has become clearer to me that both types coexisted at the same time

 

[Jevan]

Antonivs

that explains why the needles collide with each other

It's unlikely that the square friction spring will have any effect on the hands, that is more likely an issue with the hand collet.

Hopefully the images below will better explain.

 

[Antonivs]

Hello good afternoon

I haven't been able to do anything with the clock yet. Let's see if this weekend I try the piece. I have a doubt, what else could go wrong to explain that the clock strikes the bells quickly? Could I solve the problem by putting a smaller weight, for example 4lb?

 

[Uhralt]

Hello good afternoon

I haven't been able to do anything with the clock yet. Let's see if this weekend I try the piece. I have a doubt, what else could go wrong to explain that the clock strikes the bells quickly? Could I solve the problem by putting a smaller weight, for example 4lb?

The key is that the fan needs more friction. That you need to achieve somehow. A lighter weight will slow down the strike train a bit, but there may not be enough power to lift the hammer.

Uhralt

 

[Antonivs]

Uhralt thanks for the answer ^^ I think that I have found another problem in the clock, when the hammer hits the bell, it returns to its beginning by means of a kind of strap, a spring that is a piece of steel, I think. I have noticed that it does not have much resistance. Before starting to ring, I have pressed the spring manually and it has sounded slowly, could it be that this spring is also bad?, and if so, can it be bent without breaking it? I'm afraid that touching it will break it